www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Serious Fasting Questions

For myself, I have not really ever seen the "value" of fasting. I am speaking for myself, as it applies to my life.

That said... I have a serious question that I have heard conflicting answers to.

Is it a "sin" to NOT FAST?

In other words, if I eat meat, fish and dairy products during lent, in the "eyes" of the Orthodox Chruch, have I sinned?

Ray,

I hate to say this, but as Orthodox priestmonk and confessor, willfully not observing the Fast periods is considered a sin. If there is a medical reason, the fasting requirements can be adjusted.

But on your own perception with no medical problems, I have to stick by my statement.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

Dear Ray,

I would, ofcourse defer to the more more expert opinion from Father Anthony...

Just some thoughts (that do not pertain to the sin of rebellion against fasting):

I know that there have been priests that have not fasted-- in the more liberal decades past. I know of others (lay people and priests) who fast but go overboard on the amount of fasting food they eat. I know of lay persons who rationalize the necessity to buy expensive shellfish that they can't usually afford and enjoy it thoroughly. There are so many scenarios. We are humans. We are not perfect. Everything in Orthodoxy, as in all Christianity, should be done in the right 'spirit' not because of the 'law'.

Most priests would probably tell you, (atleast mine does), that what is most important during Lent is your prayer life, your spiritual life, confession, and what comes out of your mouth-rather than what goes into your mouth.

Most priests also urge their parishioners to fast in consultation with him or their spiritual father (if it is someone else). Some parishioners do and some don't.

Lent is a period of reflection. Abstaining from foods and other things which we might enjoy, enables us to get into a different state of existence, which is not our normal one, and that helps us become more spiritually oriented.

Wishing you a most spiritually beneficial Lenten season.

In Christ,
Alice

I guess then, after being Orthodox for fifteen years, coming from a Roman Catholic background, I still do NOT understand the need for putting oneself through the rigors and misery of fasting.

It sounds like a very Roman Catholic type of "rule" that must be followed under pain of sin.
I thought the Orthodox Church did not make such firm pronouncements about fasting!

I mean, does Our Lord "demand" fasting of us?
Or is it The Church? I know they are one in the same, but I think you see the point I am making.

I want to believe that The Orthodox Chruch follows more the rational of Alice in the post above.

No Ray, It is a matter of pride that you are putting that you know better than the Church. There is latitude, but when you say you do not believe in one of the disciplines of the Church, that is an exhibit of pride, stating you know better.

The Rule of Fasting goes back to the early centuries of the church. Even our Lord fasted.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

Ray,
It behooves me to see why one would openly post about being in disagreement with his church on a central issue.
What if a person who is very interested in Orthodoxy or Byzantine Catholicism sees this post and becomes discouraged by its nature?
Perhaps you are seeking spiritual nourishment, perhaps a talk with your priest may help you on your journey.

Pyrohy! Well, if you can't ask questions like this in this forum, of what good is this forum then? You are telling me to be worried about some person, who does not exist yet, that is going to �perhaps� be discouraged by my post?

I thought the idea of this form was to get advice and sound doctrine. I did NOT say I was in disagreement with fasting. I said I just don't see how it applies to my spiritual life. I mean, I don't see how going without a bite of meat, a drink of milk and a tidbit of cheese is going to somehow make me more holy and righteous.

Perhaps the one who needs a talk with their priest, concentrating on Christian Charity is you!

Your worried about some other person being discouraged about my post, well, you post was very discouraging to me! Now you have something to worry about and be �behooved� by!

Your post has an extremely "Judgemental" tone to it!

Venerable Brethren & Sistren!

Some of us have just begun the Great Fast today - others (the majority, I hope) begin it next week.

Are we under attack by the Purple Demons so soon already?

Charity!

in Domino,

Edward

Jesus Himself fasted and taught His disciples to fast.
And when you fast, do not look dismal like the hypocrites, for they disfigure their faces that their fasting may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward. But when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face, that your fasting may not be seen by men, but your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you. (Matthew 6:16-18)
The purpose of fasting is to gain mastery over oneself and to conquer the passions of the flesh. It is to liberate oneself from dependence on the things of this world in order to concentrate on the things of the Kingdom of God. It is to give power to the soul so that it would not yield to temptation and sin. According to St. Seraphim, fasting is an "indispensable means" of gaining the fruit of the Holy Spirit in one's life (cf. Conversation with Motovilov), and Jesus Himself taught that some forms of evil cannot be conquered without it (Matthew 17:21, Mark 9:29)

Man does not fast because it pleases God if His servants do not eat, for, as the lenten hymns of the Church remind us, "the devil also never eats." (Lenten Triodion) Neither do men fast in order to afflict themselves with suffering and pain, for God has no pleasure in the discomfort of His people. Neither do men fast with the idea that their hunger and thirst can somehow serve as a "reparation" for their sins. Such an understanding is never given in the scriptures or the writings of the saints which claim that there is no "reparation" for man's sin but the crucifixion of Christ. Salvation is a "free gift of God" which no "works" of man can accomplish of merit. (cf. Romans 5:15-17, Ephesians 2:8-9)

Men fast, therefore, and must fast, only to be delivered from carnal passions so that the free gift of salvation in Christ might produce great fruit in their lives. Men fast so that they might more effectively serve God who loves them and has saved them in Christ and the Spirit. Fasting without effort in virtue is wholly in vain.

I borrowed this from the OCA website. Basically it is something you do yourself and probably best discussed with your Priest. So that questions you have are answered there and then. Rather than waiting for someone to log on to their computer sometime later.

ICXC
NIKA

Ray:

With all due respect, it seems to me that when one enters a community--a group with a "common unity"--one comes with the attitude that he/she wishes to become part of that community. And it seems to me that being part of a community means that one becomes like the others--one does not come to be a stand-out.

We have a distinctly American approach to everything that seems to mean that we want to continue to be "rugged individualists" even when we enter a community. But the word community and the concept of community rules out that attidtude and approach.

We have the Fathers of the Church who provide us with witness and example to disprove this idea. Every saint that either the Catholic or Orthodox Church has produced has shown by his/her life that the aim of the Christian life is the acquisition of the Holy Spirit of God and a death to the self: to selfishness and "self-centeredness." There are essentially two directions in the spiritual life: other-directedness and selfishness/self-centeredness. The Trinity demonstrates the former in that the Lord Jesus came to do the Will of His Father and He told those who would listen that same thing so often in the Gospel. The Father tells us at the Baptism in the Jordan and at the Transfiguration that we should listen to His Son in whom He is well pleased. And the Holy Spirit comes to us to direct us to all Truth--a pointing back, always, to the Will of the Father in everything. Self-centredness essentially points always back to the "me" and what something means to me or does for me.

There is in the Orthodox Church a spirituality based on the experience of the monastics and lived by the people--a common spirituality that is not quite like that which you may have known formerly. Unlike the West, there is no thought that there is one way for those in religious life and another for those living outside formal relgious commitment. All of the "tools" for obtaining the Holy Spirit of God--holiness- are activities that all share: prayer, fasting, Scripture reading, attending Church services.

And as far as comparision goes, I believe that it may even be easier to adopt a regimen for Lent in the Orthodox Church because there is group support--since everyone is going in the same direction. Catholics of the Latin Church are encouraged to adopt similar practices, but it's more difficult because even within families people will try to dissuade because "you don't have to do that."

The goal, my brother in Christ, is holiness--obtaining the Holy Spirit of God--and looking like a follower of Christ, someone counter-cultural because of the way one thinks, acts, speaks, and conducts one's affairs. Fasting is one of the tools to get to that goal.

In Christ,

BOB

Ray,

This will be a somewhat simplistic comment, as I do not know your full story, but here it is:

As others have suggested, the fact that you do not want to fast only gives the Fast all that much more potential to do something beneficial for you. I wouldn't generalize that as a principle, but here it seems true; after all, as has been mentioned, part of what the Fast is about is dying to our self-centeredness and turning toward God and the Church in complete trust that we will be provided for. And we will. Pray, speak with your priest about this, and, if you are able (and he agrees that you should do so), keep the fast as you are able. It is a perfect way of "crucifying," so to speak, your own pride and desires, and willfully aligning your will with God and His Church, as if saying through your very activity, "Thy will be done."

May God bless you,
Maximos

Ray,
Publically admonishing both churches does not show a degree of Christian Charity. Let's see, I speak to priests on a very consistant basis. I was making a recommendation, nothing wrong with that. If I though you had a cold I'd suggest cough drops. If you were hungry I'd suggest some pyrohy. If you need some spiritual refreshment I would suggest talking to a spiritual doctor-the priest.
So I would ask you to please re-read my posts and understand I was making a suggestion not admonishing you.
In defence of the Roman Catholics as well I know many who fast well beyond canon law requirements.

I realize that I am not Pyrohy - but this post struck me to an extent that I feel compelled to respond.

This site, this forum exists in part to expose others to the venerable traditions and spirituality of the East. Due to this there are many people, such as Pyrohy described. These people are not "some person, who does not exist yet". These people do exist and they are here. Either lurking or actively posting seeking the strength, encouragement and knowledge of others.

Being concerned about discouraging or confusing them is a legitimate concern. One we should all, as a community, bear in mind whenever we post.

Yes, indeed, you did stress that your question was about YOUR life. However, when you received an answer that is advice and sound doctrine from an esteemed member of the community (a priest and confessor no less) you took it upon yourself to argue with him and to chastise both the Orthodox tradition and the Latin Catholic Church.

You accuse others of being judgemental. Perhaps you are being too prideful?

The suggestion that you speak to your priest or spiritual advisor regarding the benefits of and reasons for fasting was a good suggestion. That you resist it with such vitriol is confounding.

Were you discouraged by the tone of what was said? By what was actually said?

Or perhaps by the fact that you just don't like the truth in what was said?

I find that often I react with the most vehemence to those statements in which I find the most truth. Truth that I am not yet ready to face, acknowledge or accept about myself. Could not your vehement and vitriolic reaction be in response more to the truth in what you are hearing than in any actual offense meant by any who responded to you?

In Christ,

Carole

Pyrohy, the tone of your posts are condescending and self-righteous sounding. They lack any element of Christian charity...

Are you a Priest? Where is your love for your brother?

Carole, you make some excellent points in your post, and they were delivered with a sense of respect for Pyrohy and for myself. This shows a sense of true Christian love. I admit, I need to take a serious look at some of your suggestions.
I might want to rethink some of my ideas about fasting.

All of the replies have been given with true Christian Chairty, Pyrohy however is lacking in this respect.