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Ruthenian Liturgy different than Ukrainian? #71274
02/15/05 11:14 AM
02/15/05 11:14 AM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 143
USA
Nec Aliter Offline OP
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Nec Aliter  Offline OP
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 143
USA
This was asked on another thread and I think it deserves a better hearing. The context is the recent changes in the Liturgy as now celebrated in some parts of the Ruthenian Metropolia:

Quote
Why is our liturgy so different from the one at the Ukie church? When they were both in Slavonic 20 years ago they were identical.
Language isn't the issue. Have we in our zeal for liturgical reform distanced ourselves from the Ukrainian (and even the Melkite) Churches?

Re: Ruthenian Liturgy different than Ukrainian? #71275
02/15/05 12:24 PM
02/15/05 12:24 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 218
Mid-Atlantic
moncobyz Offline
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moncobyz  Offline
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Mid-Atlantic
Blessed Great Fast Greetings.

I am not a cradle-born Ruthenian, having joined the Church around 1990, but I was always under the impression that the B-RC liturgy has always been different (at least in the U.S.) than the B-UC despite language similarity, and the both of them are even more so than the Melkite.

To me, the B-UC is more Orthodox in its Liturgy than the B-RC...more bells and smells and kissing and bowing. I don't have firsthand knowledge, as I've never been to a Liturgy at a B-UC. But I have been on a number of occasions to a Melkite Church and there definitely are more "bells and whistles" in their Liturgy (no disrespect intended in anyway) and in the overall observance of their liturgical calendar.

Maybe the BR-C had these elements and lost them in its attempt to be "Catholic" in this country. Once when I was asked to serve as a proxy for a baptism in a Roman church (the godfather could not be at the baptism), the priest asked me if I were Catholic and I said, yes, Ruthenian. Amazingly, he did know all about us and said, "Oh, yes, you guys are the liberal Ukrainians."

I've also heard the statement that the closer you get to Pittsburgh, the more Roman our parishes become. Although, I think this has been changing over the last decade, grab a hold of the publication the B-RC Metropolia put out on its 75th anniversary and look at the photos of the various sanctuaries. You will see the many latinizations that occured over the years (including not seeing icon screens). Now look at the locations of these churches.

Oh, yes, and my favorite one of all... being told in one variation or another, "we don't do that... that's too Orthodox!"

I guess in short, I'm saying that I don't believe the differences between the liberal Ukrainians ;>) and the conservative Ukrainians is due to more than language. My impression is that the differences were there long before the B-RC moved to English. The differences are there because of differences in the three groups' immigration history, ties to their real "old country," influences of the Roman Church, our hierarchial wheelings and dealings, and the attitude of the laity.

My humble two cents...

CIX!

Re: Ruthenian Liturgy different than Ukrainian? #71276
02/18/05 03:01 PM
02/18/05 03:01 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 3,517
.
I
incognitus Offline
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incognitus  Offline
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.
At the moment, the only "official" liturgical differences between the Ruthenian Greek-Catholics and the Ukrainian Greek-Catholics are:
1) the names of the hierarchs commemorated during the services, and
2) oddly enough, the "approved" English texts used in services if English is in use at all.
2) the "order of abbreviations" authorized for the Divine Liturgy.

The second of these is perhaps more theoretical than real, at least so far as the Ukrainians are concerned - clergy and chanters are very likely to use whatever translations they prefer, and care very little for the edicts of officialdom.
The third (abbreviations) is deplorable in both cases!

I omit music from the list, since both groups are free to borrow music from each other, and this happens in practice often enough.

Incognitus

Re: Ruthenian Liturgy different than Ukrainian? #71277
02/18/05 07:31 PM
02/18/05 07:31 PM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 646
Pittsburgh
domilsean Offline
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domilsean  Offline
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Pittsburgh
Moncobyz,

I think you mean "the closer you get to Pittsburgh, the more AWESOME our parishes become"

But I've been to a few Ukrainian churches and noticed 2 things: If the Liturgy is sung, it's sung only on Sunday and only in Ukrainian. Otherwise, it's kind of spoken, but with maybe a bit of a note here and there.

I'm sorry to generalize, I'm sure this isn't true across the board, but it's what I've noticed in parishes in Pittsburgh, Philly (at the Cathedral, the priest spoke the whole Sunday Liturgy!), and NYC (Ukrainian and beautifully sung -- maybe the most beautiful sounding Liturgy I've ever attended).

Re: Ruthenian Liturgy different than Ukrainian? #71278
02/19/05 02:04 AM
02/19/05 02:04 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,516
In the Alleghenies, the mother...
Orthodox Pyrohy Offline
Forum Keilbasa Sleuth
Orthodox Pyrohy  Offline
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Posts: 1,516
In the Alleghenies, the mother...
No matter what differences between us all, we are all Catholics, and we are all one. I am having to explain to people what Eastern Catholic is.. many Westerns I know, my family and friends, do not understand and it is hard to explain we are all one. I think the example of our Holy Father's mother being Ukrainian Catholic may help explain we are all one church, just different traditions and rites. It is difficult right now to explain that we are the same as Roman Catholics, but different, but at the same time, the same. I try to focus on the Eucharist.
I didn't want to bring this up, but I feel I am called to the priesthood and I am discerning a STRONG calling to the Ukrainian Catholic Priesthood. I mean, very strong, I think I the Holy Spirit is calling me. I am so excited and I am at a point where I want to leap and I am prety sure I am ready. Pray for me. Pray for my family. I always wanted to be a priest in my younger years, I thought the calling went away, but it is back STRONGER than EVER. I can't think of anything else in my life that I want to do.
Please pray for me.
Your Brother in Christ,
Alleghenymountains

Re: Ruthenian Liturgy different than Ukrainian? #71279
02/19/05 10:33 AM
02/19/05 10:33 AM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 10,930
Irondale,AL
Pani Rose Offline
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Pani Rose  Offline
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Irondale,AL
Brother in Christ,

We need your name in the prayer forum so we can pray for you or at least email Fr. Gregory and give it to him so we are praying for you and your vocation.

Pani Rose

Re: Ruthenian Liturgy different than Ukrainian? #71280
02/19/05 11:01 AM
02/19/05 11:01 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,896
USA
Alice Offline
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Alice  Offline
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Posts: 10,896
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Dear AlleghenyMountains,

Glory to God! All blessings to you on your very real calling!

In Christ,
Alice

Re: Ruthenian Liturgy different than Ukrainian? #71281
02/19/05 11:07 AM
02/19/05 11:07 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,686
Knoxville, TN
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byzanTN Offline
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My best friend who is a priest, has told me that he felt going into his vocation put a bulls-eye on his back for Satan to take aim at. Let us all keep you in our prayers, for you have a difficult road ahead.

Re: Ruthenian Liturgy different than Ukrainian? #71282
02/19/05 03:22 PM
02/19/05 03:22 PM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 646
Pittsburgh
domilsean Offline
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domilsean  Offline
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Pittsburgh
allegheny genac genac, as they say!

Good luck, I think we'll all be praying for you and your vocation. Sometimes I feel the same way, but I don't think I'm ready yet (plus, I tried it 10 years ago for the Latin Rite and found it wasn't for me, at that time, in that place. But I've grown and moved, so who knows?)

Re: Ruthenian Liturgy different than Ukrainian? #71283
02/19/05 07:49 PM
02/19/05 07:49 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 448
Haddonfield, NJ
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Mike C. Offline
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Mike C.  Offline
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Posts: 448
Haddonfield, NJ
One thing I noticed is that the Ukranians have restored the extra petitions in various parts of the Liturgy, while the Ruthenians have not restored them.

If you attended the Liturgy at the Ukranian Cathedral lately they have atteded another English Liturgy at 11 am, and we are organizing a choir, but it is sung.

Re: Ruthenian Liturgy different than Ukrainian? #71284
02/19/05 11:37 PM
02/19/05 11:37 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,516
In the Alleghenies, the mother...
Orthodox Pyrohy Offline
Forum Keilbasa Sleuth
Orthodox Pyrohy  Offline
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Member
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,516
In the Alleghenies, the mother...
I don't know the differences too much, but I do know Saturday Liturgies are usually spoken. The other thing is I have to learn Ukrainian, and I would be a married priest. But I can't think of anything else I want to do. If at least I am not called to priesthood, I still would become a deacon. But I really think the Holy Spirit is guiding me in the direction of the priesthood.
Side note, about a year ago I was at my friend's house. He and his wife both said, "all of us (the whole group of friends) have been saying you'd make a great pastor for years! I never told them anything about ever wanting to be a priest. Also, during career consuling after college, the occupation I matched was clergy.
I can see myself being a priest, and loving every minute of it, and not just being a priest as a job, but making my whole life being a priest.
Pray for me.


Moderated by  Alice, Father Deacon Ed, theophan 

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