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Jenny Offline OP
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Hi everyone,

A friend of mine who is converting to the Orthodox Church is reading a book by Clark Carlton as part of his catechesis. My friend told me that Carlton talks about the "satisfaction" theory of redemption, which is that mankind owed a "debt" to God because of its sinfulness, and only Jesus could pay this debt because he was both human and divine, which he said that Orthodoxy rejects. What is the Orthodox answer to the meaning of Christ's sacrifice? How does the Orthodox Church view Christ's redemption?

God Bless,

Janka

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Originally posted by Jenny:
Hi everyone,

What is the Orthodox answer to the meaning of Christ's sacrifice? How does the Orthodox Church view Christ's redemption?

Janka,

The Eastern understanding differs considerably from the Western. However, sometimes it is misunderstood that somehow Orthodox Christians do not believe that there was a redemption! Of course, this is not true. We certainly believe, as St. Paul teaches that we are "purchased" (Acts 20:28, Eph 1:14, et al) by the blood of Christ.

The question to which you refer is really asking the question "to whom was the purchase price paid?"

Fr. Thomas Hopko gives an excellent and clear answer, although the conclusion still seems to some former Protestants "vague" in comparision to the so-called "sinners in the hands of an angry God".... Here it is. If I can clarify things for you further, please let me know. (We're studying Romans at our church right now, so we're right in the thick of it.)

Priest Thomas Soroka
St. Nicholas Orthodox Church [stnicholas-oca.org]

http://www.oca.org/pages/orth_chri/Orthodox-Faith/Doctrine/Redemption.html

According to the scriptures, man's sins and the sins of the whole world are forgiven and pardoned by the sacrifice of Christ, by the offering of His life -- His body and His blood, which is the "blood of God" (Acts 20:28) -- upon the cross. This is the "redemption," the "ransom," the "expiation," the "propitiation" spoken about in the scriptures which had to be made so that man could be "at one" with God. Christ "paid the price" which was necessary to be paid for the world to be pardoned and cleansed of all iniquities and sins (1 Cor 6:20; 7:23).

In the history of Christian doctrine there has been great debate over the question of to whom Christ "pays the price" for the ransom of the world and the salvation of mankind. Some have said that the "payment" was made to the devil. This is the view that the devil received certain "rights" over man and his world because of man's sin. In his rebellion against God, man "sold himself to the devil" thus allowing the Evil One to become the "prince of this world" (Jn 12:31). Christ comes to pay the debt to the devil and to release man from his control by sacrificing Himself upon the cross.

Others say that Christ's "payment" on behalf of man had to be made to God the Father. This is the view which interprets Christ's sacrificial death on the cross as the proper punishment that had to be paid to satisfy God's wrath over the human race. God was insulted by man's sin. His law was broken and His righteousness was offended. Man had to pay the penalty for his sin by offering the proper punishment. But no amount of human punishment could satisfy God's justice because God's justice is divine. Thus the Son of God had to be born into the world and receive the punishment that was rightly to be placed on men. He had to die in order for God to receive proper satisfaction for man's offenses against Him. Christ substituted Himself on our behalf and died for our sins, offering His blood as the satisfying sacrifice for the sins of the world. By dying on the cross in place of sinful man, Christ pays the full and total payment for man's sins. God's wrath is removed. Man's insult is punished. The world is reconciled with its Creator.

Commenting on this question about to whom Christ "pays the price" for man's salvation, St. Gregory the Theologian in the fourth century wrote the following in his second Easter Oration:

Now we are to examine another fact and dogma, neglected by most people, but in my judgment well worth enquiring into. To whom was that Blood offered that was shed for us, and why was It shed? I mean the precious and famous Blood of our God and High Priest and Sacrifice.
We were detained in bondage by the Evil One, sold under sin, and receiving pleasure in exchange for wickedness. Now, since a ransom belongs only to him who holds in bondage, I ask to whom was this offered, and for what cause?

If to the Evil One, fie upon the outrage! If the robber receives ransom, not only from God, but a ransom which consists of God Himself, and has such an illustrious payment for his tyranny, then it would have been right for him to have left us alone altogether!

But if to God the Father, I ask first, how? For it was not by Him that we were being oppressed. And next, on what principle did the Blood of His only-begotten Son delight the Father, who would not receive even Isaac, when he was being sacrificed by his father, [Abraham,] but changed the sacrifice by putting a ram in the place of the human victim? (See Gen 22).

Is it not evident that the Father accepts Him, but neither asked for Him nor demanded Him; but on account of the incarnation, and because Humanity must be sanctified by the Humanity of God, that He might deliver us Himself, and overcome the tyrant (i.e., the devil) and draw us to Himself by the mediation of His Son who also arranged this to the honor of the Father, whom it is manifest He obeys in all things.

In Orthodox theology generally it can be said that the language of "payment" and "ransom" is rather understood as a metaphorical and symbolical way of saying that Christ has done all things necessary to save and redeem mankind enslaved to the devil, sin and death, and under the wrath of God. He "paid the price," not in some legalistic or juridical or economic meaning. He "paid the price" not to the devil whose rights over man were won by deceit and tyranny. He "paid the price" not to God the Father in the sense that God delights in His sufferings and received "satisfaction" from His creatures in Him. He "paid the price" rather, we might say, to Reality Itself. He "paid the price" to create the conditions in and through which man might receive the forgiveness of sins and eternal life by dying and rising again in Him to newness of life (See Rom 5-8; Gal 2-4).

By dying on the cross and rising from the dead, Jesus Christ cleansed the world from evil and sin. He defeated the devil "in his own territory" and on "his own terms." The "wages of sin is death" (Rom 6:23). So the Son of God became man and took upon Himself the sins of the world and died a voluntary death. By His sinless and innocent death accomplished entirely by His free will -- and not by physical, moral, or juridical necessity -- He made death to die and to become itself the source and the way into life eternal. This is what the Church sings on the feast of the Resurrection, the New Passover in Christ, the new Paschal Lamb, who is risen from the dead:

Christ is risen from the dead!
Trampling down death by death!
And upon those in the tombs bestowing life!
(Easter Troparion)

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Jenny,

The viewpoint you mention is most often found among Fundy Protestants, and has never been sanctioned by the Catholic Church, which AFAIK, teaches what Fr. Thomas has reiterated.

ChristTeen287

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Originally posted by ChristTeen287:
Jenny,

The viewpoint you mention is most often found among Fundy Protestants, and has never been sanctioned by the Catholic Church, which AFAIK, teaches what Fr. Thomas has reiterated.

ChristTeen287
CT287,

Are you sure about that? Being a Fundamentalist Protestant for the first twenty-one years of my life and a Roman Catholic for the next eight, I can say that I have only heard the former view (i.e. the ransom was paid to the Father), present in these Churches. Do you know of the view expressed by Fr. Thomas to be evident in the Latin-Roman Church?

As for which one the "Catholic Church" teaches, I would say the Latin Catholics teach the Western view (ransom paid to the Father), and the Eastern Catholics teach the Eastern view (explained by Fr. Thomas), or at least they should be.

Anyways, I don't think its a point of dogma but something that has been considered, explored and explained differently throughout the centuries.

In Christ's Light,

Ghazar Der-Ghazarian

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Ghazar,

Yes, you're right; I don't think it's necessarily dogma and one version could be just as likely as the other.

That being said, I've read answered questions from RC priests (and asked them myself) about this, and never once have I received "the ransom" answer, but always the one explained by Fr. Thomas. In fact, there have been more than one time (in reviewing that sentence, I think that's correct English) in which the priest has told the questioner that "the ransom" view is strictly a Protestant one.

This is, of course, only my experience, and perhaps you have experienced something different. If so, I'd be interested to hear.

ChristTeen287

P.S.- I thought you were born Armenian Catholic? Are both your parents Armenian?

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Jenny:

If I am not mistaken, Clark Carlton is a convert from Evangelical Protestantism, author of "What every Roman Catholic should know about the Orthodox Church". He's a polemicist more than a scholar, his book is good in expressing something about the history of the Orthodox Church, but it is bitterly critical against Patriarch Bartholomew because of his "Ecumenist tendences", and he also expresses that the Roman Church has become "protestantized" as the reason why people must not become Roman Catholics. :p

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Originally posted by Remie:
Jenny:

If I am not mistaken, Clark Carlton is a convert from Evangelical Protestantism, author of "What every Roman Catholic should know about the Orthodox Church". He's a polemicist more than a scholar, his book is good in expressing something about the history of the Orthodox Church, but it is bitterly critical against Patriarch Bartholomew because of his "Ecumenist tendences", and he also expresses that the Roman Church has become "protestantized" as the reason why people must not become Roman Catholics. :p
Dear Remie,

I too have read Clark Carlton books and agree with your assesment that he is extremely polemical against the Latin Church. I did find his explanations of some Orthodox belief helpful though. But he is certainly no ecumenist.

In Christ's Light,
Ghazar

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Originally posted by ChristTeen287:
Ghazar,

That being said, I've read answered questions from RC priests (and asked them myself) about this, and never once have I received "the ransom" answer, but always the one explained by Fr. Thomas. In fact, there have been more than one time (in reviewing that sentence, I think that's correct English) in which the priest has told the questioner that "the ransom" view is strictly a Protestant one.

This is, of course, only my experience, and perhaps you have experienced something different. If so, I'd be interested to hear.

ChristTeen287
reply: Well, brother, I'm glad to hear that. I have always heard the teaching as a Latin Catholic that:

1. God is infinite
2. Man sinned against God
3. Any offense against the infinite is an infinite offense.
4. Therefore, it took the infinite (Jesus' Sacrifice) to make up for the infinite offense against God.

The verse, "without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sin," as I recall, seemed to play a part in this too. I also recall the line that whenever the Father considers the sinfulness of man, Christ then "re-presents" his sacrifice to the Father to appease him. Perhaps, even though I heard these many times in the Latin Church they are just popular misnomers. Perhaps the Latin Church has never really endorsed such views. Lets look at the new Catechism and some other sources to see which view, if any, the Latin Church endorses. Perhaps this understanding is still developing in the Latin Church.

Quote
Originally posted by ChristTeen287:

P.S.- I thought you were born Armenian Catholic? Are both your parents Armenian?
reply: O.k., this is a fair question as I can see you were confused by my statement. biggrin

To make a long story short, a few generations back my Armenian family became Protestants. When I accepted the Orthodox Faith of the Catholic Church, I was received in the Latin Church. Later, I canonically transferred into the Armenian Church because of my Armenian heritage and love for the Eastern Tradition. If you want the long version, see:

http://www.geocities.com/wmwolfe_48044/personal_background.html

Thanks for the question.

In Christ's Light,

Wm. Der-Ghazarian

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Originally posted by Ghazar:

Quote
Originally posted by ChristTeen287:
[b]
P.S.- I thought you were born Armenian Catholic? Are both your parents Armenian?
reply: O.k., this is a fair question as I can see you were confused by my statement. biggrin

To make a long story short, a few generations back my Armenian family became Protestants. When I accepted the Orthodox Faith of the Catholic Church, I was received in the Latin Church. Later, I canonically transferred into the Armenian Church because of my Armenian heritage and love for the Eastern Tradition. If you want the long version, see:

http://www.geocities.com/wmwolfe_48044/personal_background.html

Thanks for the question.

In Christ's Light,

Wm. Der-Ghazarian[/b]
Just to muddy the waters, I have a dear friend who is a deacon in the Armenian Orthodox/Apostolic Church, both of his parents belong to the same church, both are born abroad and 100% Armenian. His mom works for an Armenian Evangelical church which is large enough to support a full time secretary, many of our EO parishes cannot even do that.

The history of Protestanism is checkered in those places and has become even more confusing with the arrival of Protestant "missionaries" since the fall of communism. Add all that to the people coming to NA and it gets worse. I drove through a neighborhood on Long Island not long ago that had more than one Protestant church with signs in Russian (I was driving to fast to read all the sign so I don't know if it was Baptist or what).

Those are just some observations.

Tony

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Thank you for the personal information, Ghazar.

Not that I don't appreciate the help they give, but I still wish the Protestants would kindly stay away from Armenia and such other Orthodox/Catholic places.

Ghazar, here's the section of the CCC on Christ's Sacrifice: http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p122a4p2.htm#II

If you wish to view the Catechism in its entirety (it has a Table of Contents, by the way): http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc.htm

ChristTeen287

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Jenny Offline OP
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Originally posted by Fr. Thomas:
Quote
Originally posted by Jenny:
[b]Hi everyone,

What is the Orthodox answer to the meaning of Christ's sacrifice? How does the Orthodox Church view Christ's redemption?

Janka,

The Eastern understanding differs considerably from the Western. However, sometimes it is misunderstood that somehow Orthodox Christians do not believe that there was a redemption! Of course, this is not true. We certainly believe, as St. Paul teaches that we are "purchased" (Acts 20:28, Eph 1:14, et al) by the blood of Christ.

The question to which you refer is really asking the question "to whom was the purchase price paid?"

Fr. Thomas Hopko gives an excellent and clear answer, although the conclusion still seems to some former Protestants "vague" in comparision to the so-called "sinners in the hands of an angry God".... Here it is. If I can clarify things for you further, please let me know. (We're studying Romans at our church right now, so we're right in the thick of it.)

Priest Thomas Soroka
St. Nicholas Orthodox Church [stnicholas-oca.org]

http://www.oca.org/pages/orth_chri/Orthodox-Faith/Doctrine/Redemption.html

According to the scriptures, man's sins and the sins of the whole world are forgiven and pardoned by the sacrifice of Christ, by the offering of His life -- His body and His blood, which is the "blood of God" (Acts 20:28) -- upon the cross. This is the "redemption," the "ransom," the "expiation," the "propitiation" spoken about in the scriptures which had to be made so that man could be "at one" with God. Christ "paid the price" which was necessary to be paid for the world to be pardoned and cleansed of all iniquities and sins (1 Cor 6:20; 7:23).

In the history of Christian doctrine there has been great debate over the question of to whom Christ "pays the price" for the ransom of the world and the salvation of mankind. Some have said that the "payment" was made to the devil. This is the view that the devil received certain "rights" over man and his world because of man's sin. In his rebellion against God, man "sold himself to the devil" thus allowing the Evil One to become the "prince of this world" (Jn 12:31). Christ comes to pay the debt to the devil and to release man from his control by sacrificing Himself upon the cross.

Others say that Christ's "payment" on behalf of man had to be made to God the Father. This is the view which interprets Christ's sacrificial death on the cross as the proper punishment that had to be paid to satisfy God's wrath over the human race. God was insulted by man's sin. His law was broken and His righteousness was offended. Man had to pay the penalty for his sin by offering the proper punishment. But no amount of human punishment could satisfy God's justice because God's justice is divine. Thus the Son of God had to be born into the world and receive the punishment that was rightly to be placed on men. He had to die in order for God to receive proper satisfaction for man's offenses against Him. Christ substituted Himself on our behalf and died for our sins, offering His blood as the satisfying sacrifice for the sins of the world. By dying on the cross in place of sinful man, Christ pays the full and total payment for man's sins. God's wrath is removed. Man's insult is punished. The world is reconciled with its Creator.

Commenting on this question about to whom Christ "pays the price" for man's salvation, St. Gregory the Theologian in the fourth century wrote the following in his second Easter Oration:

Now we are to examine another fact and dogma, neglected by most people, but in my judgment well worth enquiring into. To whom was that Blood offered that was shed for us, and why was It shed? I mean the precious and famous Blood of our God and High Priest and Sacrifice.
We were detained in bondage by the Evil One, sold under sin, and receiving pleasure in exchange for wickedness. Now, since a ransom belongs only to him who holds in bondage, I ask to whom was this offered, and for what cause?

If to the Evil One, fie upon the outrage! If the robber receives ransom, not only from God, but a ransom which consists of God Himself, and has such an illustrious payment for his tyranny, then it would have been right for him to have left us alone altogether!

But if to God the Father, I ask first, how? For it was not by Him that we were being oppressed. And next, on what principle did the Blood of His only-begotten Son delight the Father, who would not receive even Isaac, when he was being sacrificed by his father, [Abraham,] but changed the sacrifice by putting a ram in the place of the human victim? (See Gen 22).

Is it not evident that the Father accepts Him, but neither asked for Him nor demanded Him; but on account of the incarnation, and because Humanity must be sanctified by the Humanity of God, that He might deliver us Himself, and overcome the tyrant (i.e., the devil) and draw us to Himself by the mediation of His Son who also arranged this to the honor of the Father, whom it is manifest He obeys in all things.

In Orthodox theology generally it can be said that the language of "payment" and "ransom" is rather understood as a metaphorical and symbolical way of saying that Christ has done all things necessary to save and redeem mankind enslaved to the devil, sin and death, and under the wrath of God. He "paid the price," not in some legalistic or juridical or economic meaning. He "paid the price" not to the devil whose rights over man were won by deceit and tyranny. He "paid the price" not to God the Father in the sense that God delights in His sufferings and received "satisfaction" from His creatures in Him. He "paid the price" rather, we might say, to Reality Itself. He "paid the price" to create the conditions in and through which man might receive the forgiveness of sins and eternal life by dying and rising again in Him to newness of life (See Rom 5-8; Gal 2-4).

By dying on the cross and rising from the dead, Jesus Christ cleansed the world from evil and sin. He defeated the devil "in his own territory" and on "his own terms." The "wages of sin is death" (Rom 6:23). So the Son of God became man and took upon Himself the sins of the world and died a voluntary death. By His sinless and innocent death accomplished entirely by His free will -- and not by physical, moral, or juridical necessity -- He made death to die and to become itself the source and the way into life eternal. This is what the Church sings on the feast of the Resurrection, the New Passover in Christ, the new Paschal Lamb, who is risen from the dead:

Christ is risen from the dead!
Trampling down death by death!
And upon those in the tombs bestowing life!
(Easter Troparion)[/b]
Thank you, Father, for posting this! That is very clear to me. I had never thought of it that way before, but it's a beautiful way to see Christ's sacrifice. It makes me love Christ more!

God Bless,

Janka

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Jenny Offline OP
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Originally posted by Ghazar:
Quote
Originally posted by Remie:
[b]Jenny:

If I am not mistaken, Clark Carlton is a convert from Evangelical Protestantism, author of "What every Roman Catholic should know about the Orthodox Church". He's a polemicist more than a scholar, his book is good in expressing something about the history of the Orthodox Church, but it is bitterly critical against Patriarch Bartholomew because of his "Ecumenist tendences", and he also expresses that the Roman Church has become "protestantized" as the reason why people must not become Roman Catholics. :p
Dear Remie,

I too have read Clark Carlton books and agree with your assesment that he is extremely polemical against the Latin Church. I did find his explanations of some Orthodox belief helpful though. But he is certainly no ecumenist.

In Christ's Light,
Ghazar[/b]
Dear Remie and Ghazar,

I had heard that about Carlton before. My friend mentioned that the Orthodox priest who is overseeing (is that the right word?) his catechesis is a convert from Evangelical Protestantism, too. I hope the polemical stuff doesn't turn my friend away from becoming Orthodox.

God Bless,

Janka

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Janka/Jenny,

Do you wish to become Orthodox in- or out-of-communion with Rome?

ChristTeen287

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"In Orthodox theology generally it can be said that the language of "payment" and "ransom" is rather understood as a metaphorical and symbolical way of saying that Christ has done all things necessary to save and redeem mankind enslaved to the devil, sin and death, and under the wrath of God. He "paid the price," not in some legalistic or juridical or economic meaning. He "paid the price" not to the devil whose rights over man were won by deceit and tyranny. He "paid the price" not to God the Father in the sense that God delights in His sufferings and received "satisfaction" from His creatures in Him. He "paid the price" rather, we might say, to Reality Itself. He "paid the price" to create the conditions in and through which man might receive the forgiveness of sins and eternal life by dying and rising again in Him to newness of life (See Rom 5-8; Gal 2-4). "

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

The explanation quoted above appears to reflect the explanation of the process of redemption that I was taught in my studies years ago in a Latin seminary, in the 50's and 60's.

The basic theological notion, as I remember and understand it, is that by simply becoming man the Infinite God-Man healed the rift that sin had wrought between God and humankind. Expressed another way, Jesus paid the price of our redemption simply by becoming Man.

The wonderous beauty is that God knows us so well and chose to help us know what He is doing. He gives us a unique kind of metaphor.

Jesus died and showed the depth of His Love for us. He rose to tell us of our own resurrection into the Life. He ascended to tell us that where He goes we will go to God Himself.

Death, Resurrection, and Ascension make up the living metaphor that He used. It is the living metaphor that He has enabled us to be baptized into. It is the reason for which we were created and for which he "purchased us." It is in the deepest sense of the word, reality.

It is the reality that the whole of creation and the new creation, the Church as a whole is experiencing. It is also the reality that each of us experiences in our growth into Life. When I came to this forum, I learned another name for the individual process, theosis.

I hope that I have done what I learned then justice.

Thanks to you all for what you have said. Thank you Fr. Thomas for refreshing the memory.

Steve

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Jenny Offline OP
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Originally posted by ChristTeen287:
Janka/Jenny,

Do you wish to become Orthodox in- or out-of-communion with Rome?

ChristTeen287
Dear ChristTeen,

I wish to become Orthodox in-communion with Rome. I have stuggled with this, though. And there is still a small amount of doubt in my mind about being in-communion with Rome. But I think this is where God is leading me.

My friend is becoming Orthodox not-in-communion with Rome. There isn't an Eastern Catholic Church within 300 miles of him. Although, I'm not sure he'd choose to be in communion with Rome even if there was one.

God Bless,

Janka

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