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Re: Ukrainian Catholic Divine Liturgy #72344 12/11/03 07:39 PM
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Chtec Offline
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Wait, I take it back. Kucharek also says that O Monogenes is anti-Monophysite/anti-Eutychian. It is this hymn and not the Cherubicon that is claimed to be written by Severus (at least by the Syriacs). The Byzantines say it was Justinian, but he wrote it while Severus was his house guest. Hence it is used by some Oriental Orthodox.

Dave

Re: Ukrainian Catholic Divine Liturgy #72345 12/11/03 08:03 PM
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Diak Offline
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The difference between a terrorist and a liturgist is that you can negotiate with terrorists... smile

Dave, I agree that while some liturgists have forwarded their opinions, I've read others as well offering different opinions of the hymn and the liturgical actions surrounding it. From the liturgical texts themselves there seems to be little or no indication that it was anything other than a credo.

The focused attention on "incarnation", becoming man, dying, etc. which are pertinent to human nature as well as affirmations of divintiy could certainly be useful against either heresy. But I think the intent was the reaffirmation of Chalcedon by Justinian's composing/promulgating the hymn.

But again, considering the 5th Council was concerned with affirming both the 3rd and 4th Councils, I would agree that it is could also be directed against Nestorianism as well.

Looking at the timing of the Hymn, considering the 5th council was primarily concerned with "damage control" from the huge rift in the Church over the 4th Council, it only makes sense it would be directed primarily against monophysitism/Eutyches.

Justinian certainly had it out for the Monophysites, and that has to be factored in somewhere. But he had it out for the Nestorians as well. Fun stuff.

"and if he thus attempts to introduce into the mystery of Christ two hypostases or two persons, and after having introduced two persons speaks of one Person only in the sense of dignity, honor, or worship ... [and] shall calumniate the holy council of Chalcedon, pretending that it used this expression [one hypostasis and person] in this impious sense ... let him be anathema" (5th Council)

The Armenian Catholics also use the Hymn of the Incarnation in their liturgy.

Another mystery - Severus or Justinian? Who ever finds the answer to that will probably also find the answer to Tone 7 Bulgarian. biggrin

Re: Ukrainian Catholic Divine Liturgy #72346 12/11/03 08:10 PM
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Dear Subdeacon Randolph:

Quote
The difference between a terrorist and a liturgist is that you can negotiate with terrorists... wink


biggrin biggrin biggrin

Now, if only you could inform us about their similarities! smile

AmdG

Re: Ukrainian Catholic Divine Liturgy #72347 12/11/03 08:30 PM
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Quote
Alex wrote:
The accepted term today is "Kyiv" and "Kiev" is the way contemporary Muscovites (who call themselves "Russians") refer to it as they still consider their "Little Russia" to be their backyard.

I've yet to see any Ukrainian embassy anywhere accept "Kiev" and I've spoken to the former Prime Minister of Ukraine who said that "only Russian imperialists" use the term "Kiev" in Ukraine and he hopes that no one uses it anywhere else.

If you continue to insist on using "Kiev," I'll insist on referring to your country as rebellious colonies that by right belong to Britain.
Alex,

You are welcome to refer to America any way you wish. biggrin

I realize that Ukraine is in the midst of shedding its Soviet past and changing the Latin alphabet spelling of for many terms, including that country’s capital. I respect that. But Ukrainians should also realize that once people learn a particular spelling of a term they tend to automatically stick with it. Add into that that the majority of English language books in print use the spelling “Kiev” (since most were printed before the spelling change). This only reinforces the “Kiev” spelling.

I did internet searches for both “Kyiv” and “Kiev”. The search for “Kyiv” returned 78,954 results and the search for “Kiev” returned 282,310 results. A goodly number for “Kiev” (maybe 15-20%) are to websites with the .ua domain. One of the official government sites listed “Kyiv” as the official spelling but then notes that many still spell it “Kiev”. Another lists it as “Kyiv (Kiev)” and most of the English language sites in Ukraine seem to use the different spellings interchangeably.

You’ve got a huge effort ahead of you to change the way we English speakers have spelled the capital city of Ukraine. I think that flexibility on this issue is needed.

But if is really something Ukrainians are ready to fight over I’ll ask that you pass the “pyrohy” and won’t say “pirohi”.

Have I teased you enough for one day? :p

Admin

Re: Ukrainian Catholic Divine Liturgy #72348 12/11/03 08:35 PM
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Dear Administrator,

YES!

As long as real Ukies spell it properly, the rest of the world can take its time to catch up to us . . .

smile

Alex

Re: Ukrainian Catholic Divine Liturgy #72349 12/11/03 08:41 PM
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Quote
Alex wrote:
YES! As long as real Ukies spell it properly, the rest of the world can take its time to catch up to us . . .
Alex,

I suspect real Ukies would use the Cyrillic alphabet! :p

But then I’m not Ukrainian so I wouldn’t know.

Admin

Re: Ukrainian Catholic Divine Liturgy #72350 12/11/03 08:45 PM
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Dear Administrator,

You're a real card today, aren't you? smile

I'm happy to serve you as an avenue by which you can hone these great interpersonal skills of yours. smile

Now have I teased you enough for one day? wink

Alex

Re: Ukrainian Catholic Divine Liturgy #72351 12/11/03 09:54 PM
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...and now for the something completely different...back to the topic!

Further to my last question, isn't there a prohibition to kneeling on Sundays? (by the way, can someone give me the reference to that Prohibition, please/thankyou).

On the other hand, I really REALLLLLLY appreciate how the UGCC hierarchs have kept abridgements (if abridgements there must be) to a minimum and made them generally in a logical way.

Other jurisdictions, to my particular taste anyways, have chopped too, too much of the liturgy. E.g. I like the litanies and prefer them to the priest prayers as a form of public and communal worship. IMO, they just work better.

Herb

Re: Ukrainian Catholic Divine Liturgy #72352 12/11/03 10:35 PM
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Herb, it was the Council of Nicea in 325 (First Ecumenical Council) which declared that all Sundays were dedicated to the Resurrection, and as such the liturgical posture for recognizing that was standing ("rising up"). Specifically I believe it was Canon 20.

Re: Ukrainian Catholic Divine Liturgy #72353 12/12/03 12:29 AM
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The spelling "Kiev" is derived from Church-Slavonic, not from Russian (Russian and Ukrainian both took it from Church-Slavonic). Church-Slavonic, in turn, is not "old Russian" or any other form of Russian; if anything, Church-Slavonic is Old Bulgarian (which is exactly what it is termed in German). As for those of us who write in English, we continue to use Moscow, not Moskva, Saint Petersburg, not Sankt Piotrburg, Warsaw, not Warszawa, and so forth. Incognitus

Re: Ukrainian Catholic Divine Liturgy #72354 12/12/03 01:19 AM
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Dear Incognitus,

The point is that no one speaks Old Church Slavonic today, unless you are a ROCOR Cantor or something.

"Kiev" as it was used is the Russian usage. They could get it from the German such as "Apelsina" or "Chinese Apple" or "orange."

When "Kiev" is used today, it is a Russian language usage, nomatter where it was derived from.

And it is no longer acceptable to use an old imperialist term to describe the capital city of a formally free nation.

That is the point.

And the Bulgarian Consul General to Toronto, with whom I've had lunch several times, ALWAYS uses "KYIV."

You really should look into a career with the diplomatic corps or the United Nations, you know . . . smile

Alex

Re: Ukrainian Catholic Divine Liturgy #72355 12/12/03 05:50 AM
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Ok:

s ky

and


i t

Kyiv

This = Kai-iv

Kiev is actually more correct linguistically in the English Language.

What is so sad about this is that there will probably be a schism one day over this issue. So, to prevent it, I guess I would just agree with the term Kyiv, even if no intelligent anglophone will know how to pronounce it. confused

A.

Re: Ukrainian Catholic Divine Liturgy #72356 12/12/03 01:40 PM
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Dear Ality,

The point is that nomatter what we say about the spelling of this term here, it means squat.

The accepted spelling in English is what has been approved by the Ukrainian government, the government of what is now a formally free state.

All other governments in the world that use English as their lingua franca use "Kyiv" as well.

It is not up to the Sheptytsky Institute (which I believe persists in using the Russophile "Kiev" in its publication) nor linguistic historians nor anyone else.

It is a simple matter of international protocol and to ignore it constitutes bad manners and offensiveness.

How you spell your name and how you wish to be called by others are things that YOU determine for yourself, not me nor anyone else.

If I didn't call you as you wished to be called, you would take offense, as would I.

Alex

Re: Ukrainian Catholic Divine Liturgy #72357 12/12/03 03:50 PM
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Alex,

I grew up with “pirohi”, not “pyrohy”. I grew up with “Kiev” not “Kyiv”. Some of my ancestors came from near “Uzhorod”, not “Vyshhorod”. I know of the “Crimea”, not the “Krym” and could find the “Dnieper River” on a map but I don’t give a hoot about the “Dnipro”. I doubt anyone will convince me to change the way I (or most of America) transliterates Slavic words. If you wish to accuse me of bad manners or being offensive please go right ahead. I really don’t care. :p

Admin

Re: Ukrainian Catholic Divine Liturgy #72358 12/12/03 04:44 PM
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Dear Father Elias, +EVLOGITE! We're in complete agreement! (For my two cents worth): Half the world is starving and we're concerned about what??? Can you imagine Blessed Mother Teresa being interested it such things??? What would Our Blessed Lord say about this issue??? It reminds me of a conversation I had with a man in Minsk one sunny afternoon in August in 1997. My parish president said to him, "You should study your mother-language (Belarusian)---and stop speaking Russian." The man responded, "When I have a job and make enough money to put food on the table for my children and can afford to buy them good clothes for winter---then in my 'spare time' I'll study Belarusian and begin using it." Nuff said.

Humbly in Christ Who calls us,
+Father Archimandrite Gregory, who asks for your holy prayers!


+Father Archimandrite Gregory, who asks for your holy prayers!
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