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Dec 29th, 2019
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MariM,
The struggle for truth is somtimes an unpleasant thing - take Alexandre of Jerusalem for example.
Love and respect always, which what drives one to the aid of others.
The Orthodox believe we inherit the CONSEQUENCES of Adams sin while the Latins believe we inhereit the actual GUILT.
An analogy might be that if your father had to flee the country because of a crime and he took you with. You would not be guilty of the crime but would be experienceing the consequesnces.
[ 06-17-2002: Message edited by: OrthodoxyOrDeath ]
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Mari,
I was just up in Y'town a week ago.
Which Byz church are you attending? There's a Ukie church in I think Austintown - St. Anne's if the old rusty synapses are working. Pastor is Msgr George Appleyard, a man VERY worth knowing!
Best,
Sharon
Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor & sinner
sharon@cmhc.com
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Slava Jesu Kristu,
Eastern Catholics are not under obligation to believe the inherited guilt part. It is like Purgatory, we may take it or leave it despite what our Latin brothers may insist.
Dmitri
[ 06-17-2002: Message edited by: Dmitri Rostovski ]
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Concerning original sin, the Catechism of the Catholic Church states: 404. "How did the SIN of Adam become the SIN of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam 'as one body of one man'.[St. Thomas Aquinas, De malo 4, I.] By this 'unity of the human race' all men are implicated in Adam's SIN, as all are implicated in Christ's justice. Still, the transmission of ORIGINAL SIN is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received ORIGINAL holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal SIN, but this SIN affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state.[Cf. Council of Trent: DS 1511-1512.] It is a SIN which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of ORIGINAL holiness and justice. And that is why ORIGINAL SIN is called 'SIN' only in an analogical sense: it is a SIN 'contracted' and not 'committed' - a state and not an act." There are more entries in the Catechism about Original Sin, but the word "guilt" is never mentioned. In fairness to OrthodoxyOrDeath, St. Augustine may very well have made the link between Original Sin and Guilt in his writings; however, this has not been officially accepted by the Catholic Church. May God bless your Byzantine explorations!
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I hope I don't misrepresent anyone's views, or offend anyone. I'm trying to be as objective as I can be. Here I go...
AS I UNDERSTAND IT, Augustine believed unbaptized infants went to Hell. He was the big Western thinker till Aquinas came along, but the Eastern Church later condemned Augustine for this and for predestination. (Someone is gonna say that was politically motivated, anti-Western nose-tweaking. There's an element of truth in that, but we never really did like him.)
Later Catholicism got away from Augustine without disowning him, and softened this by coming up with limbo for unbaptized infants.
The Orthodox never made use of limbo that I know of, so, if they thought about it all, they'd say unbaptized infants were... taken care of by God somehow, somewhere.
:-) You will find Easterners in general aren't given to precise answers in theology. This may drive you crazy.
I honestly doubt if anybody's views differ much today. I don't think anybody believes unbaptized infants go to Hell, and I don't think Catholics make use of limbo anymore.
The East didn't talk as much about original sin, so they never came up with the idea of the Immaculate Conception, i.e., that the Theotokos was conceived without original sin. That is not a required, defined dogma for the Orthodox. (It is, of course, for Catholics.) When pressed on the issue, however, Eastern Orthodox believe what amounts to the same thing. (I've heard St. John Chrysostom ascribed the sin of vanity to her at the wedding at Cana.)
IF there is a difference, I would guess that the West says we inherit Adam's guilt as if we had done it ourselves, while the East says all we inherit is a sinful nature, i.e., when we're born, we're doomed to sin, and in need of a Savior.
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No time today for a lengthy response but a few quick points:
1. "Limbo" has never been official Latin Catholic doctrine although it was a popular approach, especially in the last few centuries.
2. Can someone please clarify if the theology of "inherited guilt" was ever officially taught by the Latin Church? I know it was a very popular understanding but I have never seen evidence that it was officially taught. A historical timeline type of thing would be welcome.
3. It is my understanding that the actual Latin teaching is that the inheritance focuses on the inherited effects of original sin (i.e., propensity towards sin) rather than the idea of inherited guilt.
4. Byzantine Catholics are expected to acknowledge that the Latin teaching is a valid teaching but are not expected to abandon the traditional Byzantine understanding of original sin (i.e., mortality).
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Dear Alex, Sorry for being so "snippy", but doesn't anyone else think this sounds like the American RC Church?  Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
....(snip).....
But we have our own Particular Churches and organize our church lives by ourselves, unless of course Rome wants to do it for us.
In that case, some of us argue with Rome to "butt out" while others continue to fall headlong . . .
Alex
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Welcome, Mari, Thank you for this post. Originally posted by MariM:
I'm confused, I thought this community was about GOD. Where GOD is, I don't see room for disrespectful behavior on the part of anyone. Let's remember why we were put on this earth and why we chose to share the Gospel. I suppose some people let off steam by being mean. Maybe they had a bad day, or a grumpy spouse, or a stubbed toe. The only thing I know is that lots of prayer and generous forgiveness are required. Lord, grant us the serenity to cope with the grumpy and the unkind. Have a Blessed Day! John Pilgrim and Odd Duck
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Hi,
Does anyone notice it's the girls who are being pleasant and helpful again! Why aren't the Orthodox and Byzantine men on the board trying to kill her with kindness? She is asking to learn about the Byzantine Church and what she wind up reading? Look how ugly we can be to each other. There is enough richness in both Churches to teach her about. O.D. and O.C. and others have a wealth of knowledge to share.If you are asked to explain the differences why does it have to be so negative? Welcome Mari M. I am a former RC also now officially a BC.And no it's not always like this on the board.
In all her Babaness,
Nicky's Baba
[ 06-17-2002: Message edited by: Nicky's Baba ]
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My sentiments exactly Nicky's Baba! Put on your seat belt Mari, these guys can get rather testy around here. Though they are rather interesting. It shows they take their faith seriously, and I think it is an ethnic thing--ok, i'm in trouble for this--they like to argue! But you will definately learn from them. If you look at the top of the responces you see the little people standing...you can email someone to get clarification on their responce privately if it is getting too confusing. Hey Alex, >>>>>Here you come back just as I'm leaving!<<<<<<< Explain please where are you leaving too?  Rose
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My sentiments exactly Nicky's Baba! Put on your seat belt Mari, these guys can get rather testy around here. Though they are rather interesting. It shows they take their faith seriously, and I think it is an ethnic thing--ok, i'm in trouble for this--they like to argue! But you will definately learn from them. If you look at the top of the responces you see the little people standing...you can email someone to get clarification on their responce privately if it is getting too confusing. Hey Alex, >>>>>Here you come back just as I'm leaving!<<<<<<< Explain please where are you leaving too? Rose
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Originally posted by Nicky's Baba:
Does anyone notice it's the girls who are being pleasant and helpful again!
Yes, Ma'am, I think we should replace all the Bishops with Babas. John Pilgrim and Odd Duck
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Thank you all very much. I really appreciate you all taking time to help me out. With much prayer and support, I'm sure this journey will be meaningful.
Actually, I have only recently learned that the Eastern Churches are less legalistic, which actually appeals to me. I always found it odd that my church was able to be so precise(their version) about matters of a spiritual nature.
Now a follow up: where is the Byzantine Catholic Church going in the next century? I have read much that says it will become less Latin(which would be fantastic, though coming from where I am, it doesn't seem very Latin or Roman to me). I have read that there a strong movement to restore this beautiful Rite to (more)of its Eastern origins? And what would these be? I know married priests are one area.
Coming from the Roman Rite, I have seen the church transform so greatly that its hard to recognize it as the church I attended growing up. I would hate to see something happen to transform or lessen this beautiful Liturgy that is coming to mean so much to me spiritually.
Also, thanks so much for the tips about posting and such. I've never been involved with a board so I haven't a clue about this stuff. Hoping all you nice Byzantines and Orthodox will teach about religion AND computer(smile).
In prayerful gratitude,
Mari
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miss the mark by a little or a lot and you still miss the mark.
Abba Isidore the Priest:
When I was younger and remained in my cell I set no limit to prayer; the night was for me as much the time of prayer as the day.
(p. 97, Isidore 4)
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