What are your thoughts about penance, in general ?

-- What, overall, is the Eastern Christian understanding of penance ?

-- How would you define penance ?

-- What purpose does penance serve ?

--Can people do penance on behalf of / for the good of others ?

-- How to draw the line between penance and masochism ?

I sincerely want to know because I need to better understand penance. Thank you for your replies.

-- John

John,

The best I can offer is from a confessor's point of view. Penance is not meant to be a punishment, but an aid in helping the penitent refocus their spiritual ife and hopefully work through an area of spiritual difficulty or laxity.

Generally, I would hear a confession, and what would come to mind would be something that have a common link to most that is being confessed. I would then ask some questions to clarify this and find out if my thought may correct. Then I would counsel the person regarding this, and finally assign a "penance", i.e. a prayer rule or task in order to help overcome this spiritual difficulty. I have had penitents come back with the same difficulty and would either modify the "penance" or have them continue to apply the same original one.

Confession is like visiting a doctor for our spiritual ills. The doctor can only treat what is told to him and by the symptoms. Sometimes medications must be regulated or changed. The spiritual doctor (confessor) strives never to harm the penitent, but to help cure him. Sometimes this takes repeated treatments and ongoing visits.

The confessor that is wise, will never give the penitent anything more than the penitent can handle spiritually. The penitent may want more, but the a wise confessor would rather build up the spiritual medicine slowly as to not have the penitent be overwhelmed, then spiritually harmed.

FYI, I have had penitents ask for stricter "penances". I generally refuse, for this is not what I have felt direction towards. Most times, the penitent does not complain, and we work at it for whatever the time requires. The ones that are not satisfied with penances time after time, are told they are free to find another confessor. I will state though that those requesting the most severe penances, are not leeting guide direct their spiritual healing, but rather they are.

I know this sounds disjointed. I had a bad night when it came to sleep, and the morning pot of coffee has not kicked in yet. I pray that it helps you in your question.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

PS I also had to be as general as possible for the obvious reasons.

Dear John,

Certainly, the East sees penance as something that can be applied to others, for their good, their conversion etc.

As Father has said, penance is "medicinal" but Orthodoxy has tended to produce monastic saints that have done great penances ie. carrying heavy chains with iron Crosses on their bodies etc.

This is to discipline the body and bring it into subjection under the Law of God.

It is also meant to be part of the "works of repentance and conversion" that are necessary following confession and the act of conversion.

The Orthodox Church teaches that anyone who dies before fulfilling these works (clearly meant as a kind of satisfaction) will go to hades until such time as their purification is completed and then they are released from there to heaven.

The Orthodox Church has defined that there is no such separate state or place as "purgatory" but only hades where the souls of all those who are not worthy of heaven go for purification, including those who have committed serious sin. Everything else is up to God's mercy until the Second Coming of Christ and the Final Judgement.

If I am not mistaken, Orthodoxy sees our souls as vessels that require a constant flow of the Holy Oil of God's Divine Grace through continual prayer, fasting, good works, etc.

That oil can be gathered to overflowing and can fall on others to assist them.

Alex

Dear Fr. Anthony and Alex,

Thank you for your replies, and please forgive me for my very late response.

You both have given me much to think on.

I know Purgatory is a sensitive topic, but in my little opinion it seems that both East and West are saying essentially the same thing. The souls of the just who are not completely purified from sin must somehow be purified before they can be admitted to the all-pure presence of God. God be praised for this mercy, and God have mercy on those being purified: here and hereafter. And I sometimes wonder if we (East and West) would do betterif we would just leave this awesome mystery as a mystery: of God's love and mercy.

The Mystery of Confession is indeed a mystery to me -- not for the belief in it but for the idea that God uses us human beings to effect His forgiveness. I am humbled and in awe of this: this theosis through Incarnation which Christ shares with us.

Dr. Alex, you wrote

That is so true. I have experienced that in so many ways, by the loving-kindness of people who have helped me. Including at this forum. Now I am reading a book about an Orthodox priest-monk called Father Arseny. He was a starets in the Soviet gulags, and he seems to epitomize what you were saying. So have so many other saints, East and West. I tend to think the Mother of God did so the most.

Thank you both for your good words.

-- John

Dear Alex,

I would very much appreciate if you could remember where exactly you read or learned this...it makes great sense to me and is how I believe, but there are so many conflicting ideas about prayer for the dead, etc., in Orthodoxy today. If one tries to put forth a belief they need to back it up with something quite concrete these days.

Personally, I think that there has been alot of Protestant theology infused into some jurisdictions of Orthodoxy *in America*, and I qualify this because I have actually heard priests say that memorial services are for the living or only to remember the deceased.

Thank you in advance for the help, Dr. Roman!

In Christ,
Alice

Alex,

If I understand, the Orthodox teaching is:

Heaven
Hades
Hell

Where Hades is equivalent to the RC Purgatory?

mike

Dear Alice,

There was a post here some time ago giving the name and date of the local Orthodox Council that defined this . . . I don't remember these, but I do remember the content of the definition . . .

I guess I'm sort of, well, useles, eh?

I'll try and locate it in my copy of the "Rudder."

I would say, Beloved and Dear Alice, that those Orthodox priests who say those things aren't doing so because of a "Protestant" influence.

It is more a "Catholic" influence . . .

It used to be an argument (that actually converted a few Orthodox I knew to Catholicism) that said that if we pray for the repose of the souls of people, this means they are not yet in heaven (if they were there, they wouldn't need our prayer!).

And so, Catholic apologists would pose the question: "If such souls aren't yet in Heaven and they're not in Hell (for then prayer for them would be to no avail), then where are they if not in . . . purgatory?"

The logic here is powerful. So powerful in fact that St Peter Mohyla of Kyiv made no bones about accepting the Western doctrine of Purgatory in his original "Catechism" - it was removed by the Orthodox Patriarchs, but St Peter insisted on keeping it in within his own Metropolia.

But the fact is that Orthodoxy has defined Hades as a place where souls need not be doomed for eternity, but for as long as necessary for them to be purified - they didn't see the need to invent other "states" or "places."

Those and others who misrepresent Orthodox teaching about prayer for the dead are doing so because they reject Catholicism's "rational logic" about purgatory but do so without presenting Orthodoxy's actual teaching on the subject.

This is very much like the old Catholic logic about the Immaculate Conception. IF one rejected the RC teaching on the Immaculate Conception, THEN this must mean he or she says that the Mother of God had a "stain of Original Sin" on her soul at her Conception . . ."

I still hear the above today!

The notion that there could be another explanation that has been in the Orthodox liturgical tradition since the 6th century via the feast of the "Conception of St Anne" once one parts company with Augustinian notions of Original Sin is ignored. Living in the West as we do, the influence of Latin perspectives is all-pervasive in this way.

Alex

Dear Mike,

Actually "Hades" is the RC "purgatory" and "hell" combined.

In RC eschatology, "purgatory" and "hell" are both places of suffering (cleansing etc.) with the exception, of course, that one can get out of purgatory to go to heaven.

"Hades" in Orthodox eschatology is where the souls of those who have committed grave sin and where those who are not yet purified for entrance to heaven go - it is one and the same place but from whence those who, before the Second Coming of Christ, have achieved purification may leave for Heaven.

In Orthodox eschatology, "Heaven" before the Second Coming of Christ is really a "Forecourt" of Heaven and "Hades" is a "Forecourt" of Hell.

Ultimately, our final destination for eternity will be decided at the Final Judgement with the Second Coming of Christ.

The Kyivan Orthodox Metropolitan and Church Father, St Peter Mohyla, taught in his Catechism (yes, he was Latinized too . . . ) that even when we see someone who dies after committing a grave sin that we suppose would earn them an eternity of hell, our responsibility as Christians is to pray earnestly to God to ask Him not to impute the sin to that soul etc.

That always spoke very loudly to my heart!

Alex

Alice

If you mean by participating in Protestant oriented ecumenical organizations like the NCC, then I would agree that has been problematic. If that's not what you mean, I would like to hear exactly what you're speaking about.

What do you mean?

Andrew

Dear Andrew,

I mean *exactly* what I mean! :p

If you want specifics, here is one: the priest at my grandfather's memorial service's dinner was talking to my Episcopalian aunt. She asked what exactly this service was all about. He responded: "oh it is just a service to remember the dead and nothing more".

Sometimes in our quest for converts, it seems to me, in my opinion, the theology of our faith sometimes becomes diluted and twisted for what we *think* will suit their sensibilities better (as in the example with my aunt)

I love and cherish our converts, but in my humble opinion, I think that this method set forth by *some* of our clergy is wrong, and is only creating a muddled sea of different theological philosophies and traditions from church to church and jurisdiction to jurisdiction.

It has come to the point that if I need answers or confirmation of some tradition or belief, I will go straight to sources in the Church of Greece *in* Greece to get the unbiased and unchanged truth. If I couldn't do that, I would seek out someone from ROCOR.

Anyway, the list you would like me to be explicit about could go on with more examples, but why would I do that? To do so would be scandalous, non-constructive and non-productive.

You know, Andrew, there is no perfect place, person, or church on this earth. The Church is perfect and spotless as it is the Bride of Christ, but it is composed of imperfect individuals such as myself. That is why I believe that we must all look and concentrate on what is good in our faith and in individuals, be the best examples of Christian love that we can, embrace our the beauty of our faith traditions, and look towards our own personal salvation.

Forgive me if I have scandalized you with the experiences of my forty some years totally immersed in the Orthodox Church, which I do love, but love doesn't mean overlooking shortcomings...and I believe that should hold true for Orthodox as well as for Catholics. There should not be a double standard in trying to preserve the apostolic faith, truths, and piety handed down to both sides through the ages.

Humbly in Christ,
Alice

Since we are on this topic, I personally know of a situation in a middle school of several yrs ago. An eight grader pulled a gun and shot a teacher to death..as the man lay dying..seconds later, he put a gun to his head and killed himself. As of that time, I was an Orthodox convert, and, if I had been in my previous mindset of western schismatic protestantism..."to hell he would go!!!" BUT>>, I felt great sadness, (I was aquainted with both), the teacher was RC, and the boy was not churched till but a few yrs before this (don't know of any baptism). But, I will remember to pray for him, at least at that yearly anniversary. What would one say to this..(REAL) situation. Any priests surely may weigh in here..(would be appreciated), or others expert in Church doctrine. Thanks to all, and remember to intercede for those lost in such confused circumstances. Thanks, mik

Dear Mike,

That is a beautiful thing you are doing in praying for the deceased. This is so intrinsic to Orthodox belief and so important and loving.

In Christ,
Alice

Orthodox Catholic posted
"It used to be an argument (that actually converted a few Orthodox I knew to Catholicism) that said that if we pray for the repose of the souls of people, this means they are not yet in heaven (if they were there, they wouldn't need our prayer!).

And so, Catholic apologists would pose the question: "If such souls aren't yet in Heaven and they're not in Hell (for then prayer for them would be to no avail), then where are they if not in . . . purgatory?"'

My understanding is that prayer, like God is timeless. The Church and Prayer are not limited by time or space therefore our prayers today can effect those that lived their earthly lives in the past. Our prayers can effect their earthly lives as well as their post earthly life journies/Theosis/Deification to gain Heaven. Therefore, even if we pray for those in Heaven, we can effect the fact that they got there.

Alice

In my experience converts are not looking for “dilution” though, they are seeking rather the fullness of the faith and tend to seek out what are considered the more traditional aspects of the church’s thought and praxis. I will say what I have seen is that most “Protestantizations” as I would characterize them tend not to be the result of converts nor are they brought about by attempts to attract them. Often it is the converts who actively oppose them.

Again, without more concrete examples I can’t really speak to what you are saying. In the one example you gave, the priest was clearly wrong.

A most interesting statement! I have a high regard for the ROCOR as well. Do you feel the state church or the Old Calendar Church in Greece is most dependable and authoritative in matters of faith and Orthodox traditions?

What is scandalous about speaking the truth, or productive in hiding it? I would much rather lay issues on the table and discuss them. I think it’s far worse actually to allude to something but then cut off discussion of it. It simply creates an air of suspicion and intrigue.

Andrew

Dear Andrew,

I do not mean the Old Calendar Church of Greece.

I mean the new calendar Church of Greece whose clergy and monastics hold the tenets of faith, praxis, and traditions dear to them in an unchanging fashion.

Infact, they now bring these true teachings to the masses by being members of expert panels on American style television news programs in Greece on a host of topics. Many times they are up against secularists in some of the topic debates, but they are always given respectable air time.

In the most recent Greek media frenzy and debate concerning the unearthing of the intact and sweet smelling remains of a monk that died fifteen years ago, a Metropolitan that was on one of those panels said that this monk who is possibly a saint, like all saints, has reached a state of total 'theosis'--where both the soul AND the body have reached 'theosis'!

Further to this he also explained that besides this recent phenomenon concerning the monk, it would be up to the laity to ultimately proclaim him a saint through their witness to his holiness...

I have come to greatly respect the Church of Greece from personal observation...(and I will admit that I have an advantage in that I can observe them in the context of their own culture and language.)

In Christ,
Alice

Alice

Why not? It’s interesting to me, because many of the things you say about what’s happening here, the Old Calendarists say is and has been happening there.

As opposed to the Old Calendarists or in addition to them?

That is excellent! I have heard mixed things from people who I have spoken to recently who have visited. Some have said there are pockets of true holiness, but that in other places church attendance and religious observance are abysmally low and that skepticism is becoming more widespread. I think I read somewhere that weekly attendance is under 10% in Greece.

That is truly wonderful that you have that connection.

My feeling is that in all places where there are Orthodox Christians there is both good and bad intermixed (much like our own souls), and we must discern what is where. No country or people is truly holy or better than another. God’s grace shines forth in many ways, through the Holy Elder you spoke of for instance or the Wonderworking icon of Sitka which I hope you had a chance to see as it made its way around the country.

Andrew

Dear Andrew,

I know very little about the Old Calendrist Greek Church and I don't even know anyone who belongs to their church.

I DO know, and have written about it here, that attendance is not all that great in Greece, religion is not all that important, and that there is apostasy (great sexual license, atheism, and witchcraft) there.

I just came back from a business trip there. On the plane I picked up what looked like a woman's magazine in Greek. I cannot tell you how upset I was to see a three page article on 'sprituality' from 'the witch of Smyrna' writing about 'astral projection' and giving spells with demon's names to call upon for your business to go well, etc.

On the other hand, after a particularly grueling day, my husband and I found ourselves going to the nearest church on the corner, (they exist every few blocks in all of Athens and huge new ones are being built every time I go) for the Salutation services (part of the Akathist Hymn) to the Theotokos. The Church was filled to its 500-600 seat capacity and the rest of the space was filled with standing room participants. Besides that this was one of THREE services offered every Friday night in every church in the city--one at seven, one at eight, and one at nine for working people.

So, yes--as throughout my life I try to be objective in and about all things, I agree that there is no one perfect or holy place, and no one perfect or holy faith tradition, as all countries have a polarization between believers and non-believers, and spiritual crisis and struggle between good and evil going on because it is a sign of these pagan times...

I still maintain that despite worldly problems, the *theology* and *beliefs* that I would trust for not being influenced by liberalism, would be from the Church of Greece or ROCOR.

For instance, a certain trend seemed to be starting for a while, when an American Orthodox priest said that we do not need to believe in the bodily assumption of our Lady Theotokos. My husband and I were troubled by this stand against what we had intrinsically believed and been taught all our lives and we approached a monastic Abess in Greece about it. The shocked expressions should have said it all, but the monastic Abess of the well known monastery that houses the body of one of the most miraculous saints the Orthodox church has ever known, went on to say that for an Orthodox to *NOT* believe in the bodily assumption of our Lady was akin to heresy.

And by the way, I do not get my 'ideas' about things I observe from any body such as the Old Calendar Church of Greece, and to imply so, insults my intelligence.

I get my ideas from my collective experiences and the many acquaintances I have made from being heavily involved in my church from birth. I attended Orthodox parochial school, have taught Orthodox catechism, have translated and edited Orthodox books for our theological school, have been a member of different parishes, have met all our archbishops and many priests, have a close relationship with a monastery in Greece of St. Nektarios, have been to confessions with an Athonite monastic elder, have read many books, etc...so am I not entitled to draw upon my own conclusions from a lifetime of experiences?!?

(I really hate having to always give my Orthodox resume to other Orthodox :p )

So, are we finished yet?!?

I most certainly hope so. :rolleyes:

Wishing you a good day...
In Christ,
Alice

P.S. I hope that you don't also take your wife to task on everything she says...such debate generally doesn't endear us women you know.... we being from another planet from men and all!

Alex,

I would have to beg to differ with you on this. In my eastern upbringing, and in what I have read, there is only heaven and hell (or hades, if you prefer). Upon our passing those deemed unworthy are comitted to hell, everyone else passes into heaven.

Jesus said to the sinner, "today you will be with me in paradise." He did not say, "you will be with me in paradise, but only after you've been cleansed of your sins."

Additionally, Jesus taught that there exists a chasm between heaven and hell which cannot be crossed.

mike

Dear Mike,

This is exactly what I mean by 'muddled sea of different beliefs and theologies'.

It has almost become like the 'belief du jour' when it comes to what Orthodox believe about prayers for the dead and the afterlife.

Anyway, as to what you have learned, to be precise, it is a 'forestaste' of heaven and/or hell, because there is the final judgement.

In Christ,
Alice

Alice

I wish we had that here!

Essentially I don’t disagree with you. A lot of what I have read that has come out of the diaspora I find rather strange. There are exceptions of course. Fr. Georges Florovsky for instance immediately comes to mind. Fr. Seraphim Rose (who I haven’t read much of I will admit) is probably another.

That’s just wrong.

I apologize, because I didn’t not intend to cause offense. You mentioned the ROCOR as being a body you hold in high esteem, so I was just curious which sources in Greece you trusted since the ROCOR holds many things in common with them. That is all, I can assure you I was not attempting to call your intelligence in to question.

Alice, I’m even more confused by this than your last statement. I don’t know where I questioned your intelligence or suggested that you can’t draw your own conclusions based on your own experiences. Obviously I am saying something terribly wrong and not realizing, so for that believe me I ask your forgiveness.

Alice, I certainly hope you don’t think I’m attacking you, because I’m not, and it is not what my personality is like (I don’t think). This is a discussion board, so when something comes up that is interesting, it is natural for me to want to discuss it. I have seen a few posts lately that have mentioned “dilution” of our faith or words to those effect. I’ll admit that personally that sets of alarm bells in my head based off some past experiences I’ve had.

We don’t need to discuss this any more. We are well off topic anyway.

Well in my defense, I don’t think I’m debating you, because I’m not trying to prove you wrong or convince you I’m right.

I don’t debate my wife, I learned that a long time ago. I’m actually normally a fairly easy going person believe it or not.

Andrew

Dear Mike,

You are right in saying that in Orthodox eschatology there is only Hades and Heaven.

You are wrong in saying that souls not destined for an eternity in hell go to heaven - Orthodox eschatology.

For then, what would be the point of praying for the dead that "they may be loosed from their sins?"

This position makes no sense theologically.

The Orthodox Church teaches that those who go to Hades are not necessarily there for eternity, many souls are there for purification before they are released to go to Heaven.

Alex

Dear Andrew,

Would you have the text of the Orthodox Council that defined against purgatory and, instead, set out the Orthodox doctrine in this regard? I can't seem to find it in the Rudder!

Alex

Alex,

I understand what you are saying, and in the times of the OT I would agree with you. But, the theology of praying for the dead comes from Macabees, which was before the Resurrection. In all of His teachings, Jesus never talked of a time of purification, nor do I remember any Apostolic teaching of praying for those who had fallen asleep.

Every mention of an afterlife after the Resurrection indicates an immediate passage into heaven.

Glory to Jesus Christ,

mike

DEar Mike,

Then what is the purpose of praying for the dead?

This is an ancient tradition of the Church that is still practiced and will be always.

We MUST go by BOTH Scripture and Tradition as interpreted and taught by the Church.

Otherwise, we are Protestants.

I don't mind being a protester, but a Protestant? Never . . .

In addition, your argument (although completely flawed from the beginning ), assumes that after death we are all ready to go to Heaven. How is that possible?

Maybe you are, but as for myself, I would be in doubt about that.

And I would hope that I wouldn't be "bad enough" to go to hell.

So what would become of me?

Alex

>> Then what is the purpose of praying for the dead?

So far as I can see, none.


>> This is an ancient tradition of the Church that is still practiced and will be always.
>> We MUST go by BOTH Scripture and Tradition as interpreted and taught by the Church.

I agree, but Tradition must not supplant Scripture, but enhance it.

>> In addition, your argument (although completely flawed from the beginning ), assumes that after death we are all ready to go to Heaven. How is that possible?

No, upon death none of us are worthy of heaven, and nothing we can do will ever make us so. But the cleansing of the spirit need not be a lengthy affair, or do you believe that God is incapable of healing in the blink of an eye?

Also, you are putting earthly terms (time) to a place which is beyond time (heaven).

Glory to Jesus Christ!

mike

Dear Mike,

May I ask if you are Catholic or Orthodox or . . .?

Who is to decide when Tradition supplants Scripture? And are you saying the Church is in error when it prescribes prayer for the dead and indeed prays assiduously for the dead in her liturgy daily, weekly and at specific times of the year?

God can do what He wants at any time, of course!

God the Son did not have to become Man in Jesus Christ to save us - but He did.

You are the one insisting on your own interpretation of Scripture, Tradition and what the Church has always done and taught in this regard.

Alex

>> May I ask if you are Catholic or Orthodox or . . .?

Byzantine


>> Who is to decide when Tradition supplants Scripture? And are you saying the Church is in error when it prescribes prayer for the dead and indeed prays assiduously for the dead in her liturgy daily, weekly and at specific times of the year?

Tradition is a living, breathing doctrine, not one cut in stone 1700 years ago. It must constantly be examined and questioned. It may be found to be just and proper, or it may be determined to be in error.

If you feel that it is never wrong, then what of the church's teaching against cremation? From what has been explained to me, the church forbades it because the body is required for the resurrection. If this teacing is true, then the church has just condemed many of our martrys to no resurrection.


>> God the Son did not have to become Man in Jesus Christ to save us - but He did.

Ah, but the teaching of the fathers of the church state that the Incarnation had to happen, that the sacrifice which Jesus made could only be done by someone who was both God and man.


>> You are the one insisting on your own interpretation of Scripture, Tradition and what the Church has always done and taught in this regard.

I am insisting on nothing. I freely admit that I could be wrong...then again, I could be right. If we do not question and challenge then wrongs will never be righted. Icons would not exist. Arianism might be the rule of the day, or Gnosticism. The church would still be persecuting the Jews.

Slava Issusu Christu!

mike

Dear Mike,

The Fathers did not intend to limit God's Power in that - they also said that if man had not sinned in the Garden of Eden, that God would have wanted to become Man anyway.

As for cremation, that is certainly not on a par with something like Eschatology and, really, you've got to be kidding here!

The Church has always prayed for the dead and it teaches that such prayer helps bring the souls of those who are not yet ready for heaven closer to God.

This ABSOLUTELY means that the dead are therefore not yet in heaven (time-wise, who knows?) and and that they can therefore not be in an eternal hell.

The Catholic and Orthodox Church absolutely teach this and practice this.

Do you know better than the Church?

Also, what does it mean to be "Byzantine?

Alex

Once again remember, God's People prayed for the deceased even before the Incarnation. This can easily be seen in 2 Macabees Chapter 12. Naturally this is one of the key reasons that the Protestants removed it from their partial (incomplete) Bibles. People of the True Faith have always prayed for those that have fallen asleep.

Also, remember that Prayer is not limited by time or space.

You're on a website called "Byzantine Forum" and you ask what Byzantine is? Now you must be jesting.

mike

I'm pretty sure the Esteemed Orthodox Catholic isn't jesting. By the way, are you Byzantine or Roman Catholic of the Byzantine Rite?

At one time the church also said that Icons were wrong.

At one time the church persecuted the Jews for Christ's death.

The church has been wrong.

Many thought that those who stood for Icons were crazy; I'm sure there were many who thought those wanting Icons shouldn't speak out.

As I said, which you are failing to pick up on, yes, I may be wrong, but then again I may be right.

Let's just call a peace. No one can know for sure until we reach the other side.

Slava Issusu Christu,

mike

I'm an oddball, sort of. I am Byzantine attached to the RCC, but I consider myself Byzantine first. Meaning, if the Byzantine Church disappeared I would belong to the Greek Orthodox Church, not the Roman Rite.

Slava Issusu Christu,

mike

Dear Mike,

As a Greek Orthodox, I need to tell you that you are dead wrong about your ideas concerning the belief in and the efficacy of prayer for the dead.

However, since you are Byzantine Catholic, I will let our esteemed Dr. Alex Roman convince you of the error of your belief.

Listen to him, because he is a man of great knowledge and you could not possibly learn at the feet of a better and more down to earth teacher, Orthodox OR Catholic!

Sincerely,
Alice, Moderator

Alex, et al.,

OK, let's try this from a different perspective. Let me tell you my theological thought regarding this, and you tell me where I am wrong. As I said, I am willing to admit that I am wrong, but I have to be given proof. Saying, "this is Tradition" doesn't work, since Tradition isn't proof, it just sounds like Tevye arguing with his daughters.

Macabees, where the praying for the dead comes from, is OT, before the Resurrection. At that time souls went to Sheol, which was the holding area -- neither heaven nor hell. Christ shattered the doors to Sheol and released the souls of the departed. This leaves only two places ever mentioned in Scripture - heaven and hell.

Christ spoke of souls going to heaven or hell, Lu 16:26* "between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us."

He also spoke to the theif crucified next to Him, saying: Lu 23:43 “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

Finally, Paul does mention different levels to heaven, 2Co 12:2 "I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven--whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows." But he never mentions levels to hell, or what the levels are.

Now, that said, please teach me where I am wrong.

Slava Issusu Christu,

mike

Dear Alex you said:

"The Church has always prayed for the dead and it teaches that such prayer helps bring the souls of those who are not yet ready for heaven closer to God."

I say:

The Patristic Fathers said that we will go from 'glory' to 'glory'. In other words, when a person attains deification, they will steadily progress in their vision of the uncreated Light, (Kingdom of God). Since this progress is infinite, we even pray for our Theotokos and the saints. So regardless, we pray for everyone, those here on earth and those in the other places...wherever that may be.

In Patristic theology, standing still is regarded as falling. St. Gregory Palamas said: "This vision of God has both a beginning and things after the beginning, varying in darkness and clarity; but there is no end at all, for its progress is infinite.

Zenovia

Litany for the Deceased

Priest:
Have mercy upon us, O God, according to Thy great mercy, we beseech Thee: hear us, and have mercy.

People:
Lord, have mercy. (three times)

Priest:
Furthermore we pray for the repose of the soul(s) of the servant(s) of God (name-s of the deceased), departed from this life, and that Thou wilt pardon all his (or her or their) sins, both voluntary and involuntary.

People:
Lord, have mercy. (three times)

Priest:
That the Lord God will establish his (or her or their) soul(s) where the just repose.

People:
Lord, have mercy. (three times)

Priest:
The mercies of God, the Kingdom of Heaven, and the remission of his (or her or their) sins, we ask of Christ, or King Immortal and our God.

People:
Grant this, O Lord.

Priest:
Let us pray to the Lord.

People:
Lord, have mercy. (one time)

Priest:
O God of spirits, and of all flesh, Who hast trampled down death by death, and overthrown the Devil, and hast bestowed life upon Thy world: do Thou Thyself, O Lord, grant rest to the soul(s) of Thy departed servant(s), (name-s of the deceased), in a place of brightness, a place of verdure, a place of repose, whence all sickness, sorrow and sighing have fled away. As the gracious God, Who lovest mankind, pardon every transgression which he (or she or they) has (or have) committed, whether by word, or deed, or thought. For Thou alone art without sin, and Thy righteousness is to all eternity, and Thy word is truth. For Thou art the Resurrection, and the Life, and the Repose of Thy departed servant(s) (name-s of the deceased). O Christ our God, and unto Thee we ascribe gory, together with Thy Father, Who is from everlasting, and Thine All-Holy, and Good and Life-Giving Spirit, now and ever, and unto ages of ages.

People:
Amen.

Dear Mike,

Our Lord also said that if we listen to the Apostles and the Church, then we listen to Him, no?

But be that as it may, it seems that you MAY be hung up on a Protestant interpretation of Scripture - if I'm wrong about this, then I'm wrong.

Your argument against this Church doctrine is based on disagreements the Church has overcome in the past.

First of all, with respect to icons - the Church NEVER condemned their veneration. This was done by an heretical council convened by iconoclasts and an iconoclastic emperor.

The Orthodox Catholic Church of Christ won out and condemned this council and its ideas on icon-veneration.

As for persecuting the Jews, the Church has NEVER officially sanctioned such persecution in the way it would establish doctrine on praying for the dead.

NEVER! That certain Christians etc. did this and that certain Fathers were implicated with such sentiments does not make it an official Church position.

Perhaps Christians should just "chuck" the New Testament as a whole because the very idea of Christ's crucifixion could potentially lead to anti-semitism - ridiculous, don't you think?

But these are items for another thread. They fulfill no logical function in the argument over prayer for the dead.

Time, agreed, has nothing to do here because the dead are outside of that constraint.

Ultimately, we accept that the Church is the Body of Christ, founded by Christ through His Apostles.

Just as the Holy Spirit came to rest on the Son at Jesus' Baptism, so too does the Spirit, from Pentecost, come to rest on His Body, which is the Church, and will lead the Church into all truth.

It is that same Church, by both word of doctrine and ancient liturgical practice lasting until the present, that instructs us to pray for the dead.

Nowhere in Scripture is there ANY verse that could contradict this. That it is not developed in Scripture - well, many other things about Church doctrine and life aren't either.

Including the number of books of the New Testament - whose number ONLY a decision of the Church established to be 27.

The New Testament is a Church book and given to the Church to interpret for us.

If the Church takes the Bible and Tradition and teaches us to pray for the dead (which to me and many others is quite reasonable, given the fact of penance for our sins), then we are to obey the Church - in so doing we obey Christ and the Holy Spirit.

Your views or mine on this matter are really immaterial.

Alex

Dear Mike you said:

"At one time the church persecuted the Jews for Christ's death."

I say:

I don't believe the 'Church' ever persecuted the Jews. I know that in Spain, the Jews that had converted to Christianity and continued to secretly retain their Jewish beliefs were persecuted by the Inquisition. Not as Jews though, but as heretics, and the punishment came from the state, never from the Church.

As for the Byzantine Empire, (a Christian theocracy), certain crusaders entering Constantinople found a temple that was not dedicated to our Triune God. Now it's not mentioned whether it was a Muslim or Jewish temple. But the temple did exist, showing that the Jews and Muslims were free to practice their religion.

What is mentioned in the writings of the time, is that the crusaders became so scandalized that they set it on fire, and by doing so, burned part of the city with it.

If the Jews were persecuted in the rest of Europe, it probably had to do with the economic conditions of that specific time and place. It certainly had nothing to do with Church policy.

As for Scriptures and tradition, one must realize that it was the Fathers of the Church that determined what writings should become part of the Bible, and which one's should not. If one is to deny what the Church says in all it's aspects, that person must also deny then the Scriptures...don't you think?

Zenovia

Alex,

I'm not hung up on Scripture as a Prot. would be, but Tradition must hold to Scripture, not depart from it. What I am trying to understand is, what seems to me, a departure between the NT and Tradition. I've cited the passages where I find the conflict. Can you address those so that I can understand them in light of Tradition?

Semantics. It is not the church of today that condemned, but the church of those times. Yes, that is not our current Church, but had they won it would have been the church.

Dear Mike,

I think what Dr. Alex, Zenovia and the others are trying to say is this:

There is much more to the teaching authority of the Church than Scripture. There is Tradition. And the Tradition includes Scriptures (which can teach us a lot) and Liturgy (which can also teach us a lot) and the Fathers (who can certainly teach us a lot) and the Mysteries and so on. The Holy Spirit is always infusing and uniting the Church to Christ, and Tradition is the living record of that.

And, it has always been part of the Tradition of the Church to pray for the dead.

Part of that includes praying for people who are too good for hell but not pure enough for heaven. For a modern analogy (from C.S. Lewis), it is like taking off one's muddy boots before entering a home. And although East and West can disagree about the mechanics of purification of souls after death, both agree that it is fundamentally a tremendous mercy of God --from His infinite love-- who gave us the commandment to "be perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect." With the possible exception of the Theotokos, all of us have failed at that commandment; yet God allows for the purification of our souls who love Him but who are still not yet perfect. That's all this means.

God loves us so much that He will "clean us up" in the next life if we failed to get completely clean in this life, so we can live with Him forever in perfect happiness. For God is good and He loves mankind.

-- John

Dear John,

Actually, I'm not trying to say that, I DID say that and Mike won't accept it!

Alex

Dear Mike,

O.K., I'll try and respond to your legitimate queries. If I fail again, perhaps one of our priests or deacons here could address your questions, as I'm not a trained theologian - just pretending to be (joking!) .

As for the council that opposed icon veneration, let's remember that, at one time, about two-thirds of the entire Church was dragged into the heresy of Arianism i.e. that Christ was not God, equal to the Father.

Yet, that didn't stop Athanasius from opposing this heresy and also all those bishops and faithful who were infected by it.

To leave the Orthodox faith is to be outside the Church of Christ, as we know.

In addition, St Maximos the Confessor absolutely refused to accept what he knew to be a Monothelite compromise on the subject of the union of the two Natures of Christ.

Interestingly enough, it was the Monothelite compromise that unified, at that time, the Pope of Rome with the Eastern Orthodox Patriarchs, the Oriental Patriarchs AND the Assyrian Patriarch of Seleucia-Ctesiphon. The Church was truly "one" but it was a unity based on heterodox falsehood.

St Maximos, like St Athanasius, "faced the world" in their defence of Orthodoxy of faith - and the Holy Spirit used them to destroy heresy and to return and renew everyone to the true faith and Church.

That is not semantics, my friend, that is church history and a part of our doctrine that even if an angel is to come down from heaven and was to tell us about a different doctrine than that which was handed down to us from Christ and the Apostles - we are to reject it. But I know you know that.

Concerning the particular judgement that occurs after a person's death, we receive some indications from Scripture about what happens.

For example, in Luke 16:22, the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, it is said that Lazarus was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. In Luke 12:20, the parable of the foolish rich man, he is told that "this night thy soul shall be required of thee. St John Chrysostom interprets this to mean that the evil powers will "take his soul."

There are other references such as Matthew 13:49 and 1 Peter 5:8 and the air itself is filled with the spirits of evil under the heavens wherein the "prince of the power of the air" dwells as in Ephesians 6:12).

From ancient times, the Fathers of the Church depicted the path of the soul after death as apath through vast spiritual expanses where the dark powers seek to devour those who are weak spiritually and where there is a need to be defended against them by heavenly angels and supported by the prayer of the living members of the Church.

The Fathers of the Church that affirm prayer for the dead include St Ephraim the Syrian, St Athanasius the Great, St Macarius the Great, ST Basil the Great, ST John Chrysostom and others.

St Cyril of Alexandria developed this eschatology in his "Homily on the Departure of the Soul." ST Macarius of Alexandria was given to see, in a vision, how the soul spends what, in our time, is forty days after death which is why the Eastern Church prays for the soul of the reposed in an especial manner for forty days after death, family and friends pray the psalms for that one etc.

In the Epistle of the Eastern Patriarchs on the Orthodox Faith in paragraph 18, it is affirmed:

We believe that the souls of the dead are in a state of blessedness or torment according to their deeds. After being separated from the body, they immediately ass over either to joy or into sorrow and grief. However, they do not feel either complete blessedness or complete torment.

The Orthodox Church understands "gehenna" as the condition AFTER the Last Judgement when both death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire as in Revelation 20:15.

For complete blessedness or complete torment each one receives after the General Resurrection, when the soul is reunited with the body in which it lived in virtue or in vice."

The Fathers of the Church affirm that the torments of sinners before the Last Judgement have a preparatory character. These torments can be eased and EVEN taken away by the prayers of the Church, as we read further in paragraph 18 of the above Orthodox Epistle.

The fallen spirits are reserved in everlasting chains under darkness in hell until the judgement of the great day as in 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 1:6.

Bedee, bedee, bedee, that's all (from me) folks!

Alex

This is exactly what I have been saying...that the Church has made mistakes in the past. The "semantics" comment was in reference to your statement that the church has never outlawed Icons but that heretics did. Yes, they are heretics (now), but at the time they were the church. I think we both agree here.

As to the rest (prayer for the dead), now I understand the theology behind it. That is all I have been asking for since this whole thing began. Thank you. Simply saying "it's Tradition" isn't enough, I need to know the theology behind it, just that type of person. I refuse to accept things blindly.


Is there an English translation of his homily? I would love to read it.

Slava Issusu Christu

mike

Dear Mike,

It may be somewhere on the internet, but I once had a psalter that had the text of St Cyril's homily . . . now you've got me thinking about who I lent that psalter to and why I don't have it back as yet . . .

Cheers!

I didn't find that, but I did find this, which answered a number of questions. Together with your explanation, I think I am on the right track.

http://tinyurl.com/omg5y

mike