Would someone please explain this to me.


Thanks

"God became man so that man might become God." --one of the church fathers said this. Who was it (I don't recall)?

"...so that you might be partakers of divine nature." -- St. Peter's epistle.

From the Byzantine POV, God created man with the capacity towards either loving him or rejecting him. Man was supposed to be obedient and thereby overcome the division between created and uncreated. The only criterion was love of God and thus obeying him. It didn't happen.

Christ was incarnate thus to restore humanity to God in a union of created with the uncreated(not to necessarily pay some debt ie "divine satisfaction").

Yet God is beyond existence as we know it and is unknowable. Yet the scripures and father speak of union with God, even "becoming" God. How is this possible?

The answer, which has existed in seed form from at least Saint Basil's time, but was fully developed by St. Gregory Palamas, is that God is both essences and energies. The essence of God is his existence in himself as a Trinity which only he can experience. It is closed off to creation.

Out of the essence comes God's energies, which are truly Him as well. This is God emerging from within himself to the outside world, and permeating existence.

We can have contact with the energies, and do--the energies are God's grace.

So by baptism, fasting, prayer, faith, et al, we give up our "individual" status as separate containers, and become "persons"--beings that exist truly by virtue of communion with God, who is the source of existence and being. Before, we were separate. Now we are in union.

As we leave this former way, we become more and more in union with God through the indwelling of grace which is truly God in his energies. Thus by GRACE we become God. But only God is God by virtue of his NATURE. In other words, he is "hooking us up" with some great benefits, adopting us into himself, etc. But the distinction still remains because we're created and thus only can participate in the divinity by grace, whereas He is uncreated and God by nature.

Hope this helps.

anastasios

Wow! This theology is so Beautiful! If I read St. Basil would I learn more about this? I have an Icon of him in my house and I was interested in reading up on him more. Therefore, I kill 2 birds with one stone or so to speak.


You know this might help in the conversions of Mormons because they try to have a similar theology (but MUCH different from a Christian perspective - I think Mormons are "far-game" because they are not Christians).

God Bless!

I am not sure at the moment where St. Basil briefly touches on these subjects (I have seen them but am at work at the moment and can't get to my references).

To get the full blown, developed teachings, read St. Gregory Palamas's work, "The Triads" edited by John Meyendorff and published in the "Classics of Western Spirituality" series (western in the sense of not Chinese or Indian).

For an introduction to Palamism, see http://www.monachos.net/patristics/palamas_historical.shtml that site by the way has lots of cool stuff.

anastasios

Slava Isusu Christu!

Dear aRomanCatholic@Work:

I have read some LDS apolegetics regarding their particular theology of God; they quote the Eastern Fathers to support their blatant polytheism, what audacity! We become gods by Grace, not gods and goddesses who have millions of spiritual children, through actual intercourse, who will eventually fill bodies and repopulate an earth similar to ours and thus fulfilling and perpetuating the "one eternal round" Joseph Smith talked about in one of his sermons. What deception on their part! No one ever participates in the Divine Essence, we participate in His energies; that is to say we share in the Divine Life of the Trinity, but we are not equal with the Members of the Godhead or rather have the potential to become a member of an occult "Trinity" and rule our own universe, we can never approach that unity in substance, only unity with the uncreated divine Energies of God which proceed from the Holy Spirit.

Anyway, yeah, LDS theology is really "straining at nats" to try to find apostolic roots, they might try researching Scottish Rite Freemasonry to find their roots, since that is where most of their Church's esoteric doctrine and ritual came from anyway. But going to the Eastern Church Father's, statements on theosis and deification, to support an occult theology about the Godhead, no matter how sincere, is really blasphemous and serpentile to say the least.

In Christ and Mary,


Robert

[ 12-06-2001: Message edited by: Robert Horwath ]

Robert Thanks For the Response! I am VERY interested in reading St. Basil right now and I would like to find a connection with him and Theosis. If you have any insight please point me in that direction.

The reason why I mentioned the Mormons is because I have 2 of them living next to me in my Apartment complex. I know more about the LDS than I ever really wanted to know! :-)

FYI, I am A.K.A aRomanCatholicGuy also....

Thanks
Ray

Slava Isusu Christu!

Dear Ray:

When I began my studies on the Eastern Fathers my godmother gave me a little book called "Gateway to Paradise" which has about 125 pages and contains various writings of our Father Among the Saints, St. Basil. That would be a good book to start with, as was my godmothers venerable opinion, at least for me. Since in the East a "theologian is one who prays" reading the Fathers in connection with prayer and fasting is the ideal. In fact one should not read the Fathers unless one is fasting and in prayer, especially the Jesus Prayer. One time I wanted to borrow the Ladder of Divine Ascent by Climacus, from my godmother, and she wouldn't let me unless she was sure I had prayed and fasted or would pray and fast before I read it To read the Fathers in cold abstract academic perusal is most foreign to the true Eastern mind in regard to achieving divine union with the uncreated divine Energies of the Holy Trinity. The Eastern Christian mindset is less concerned with degrees and alphabet soup behind ones name and more concerned with an experiencial relationship with God through the sacramental Mysteries, prayer, fasting, feasts, penance, ascceticism....Since a "theologian is one who prays" we must pray to be theologians. that was the spirit of the Fathers, that is how they fine tuned our Dogmas and Confessions, wrote our Liturgies et al, was through prayer and fasting and more prayer and fasting. They acquired the Holy Spirit. They became God-Bearers.

Another thing about LDS:

They are very sensitive about criticism, and oftentimes get very defensive when asked about the Temple, and the Adam-God thing, and especially Kolob and us becoming gods and goddesses. Their usual line is to start out with a very simple almost evangelical Christian presentation of their "Gospel." There are generally three levels of doctrinal presentation in Mormonism. 1. Pre-Member (Missionary Presentation) 2. Member (Meetinghouse Mormons recent converts, those who have not been in the Temple or have not received a Temple Recommend yet) 3. Temple Mormons (Temple Recommend Card Holders i.e. those who have received approval by the Bishop to enter the Temple).

1. Pre-Member doctrine focuses on the very basic rudiments of LDS doctrine: Who God is, Prayer, the pre-existence, Church membership requirements, the ordinances of the "Gospel" Baptism, "the Sacrament", et al. It is tailored to the people it is presented to. Most Missionaries are rather only framed in the basics themselves and usually avoid confrotation or doctrinal challenges from "gentiles".

2. Members who have not been able to get in the Temple or recent converts go through a small Gospel Principles class at first and if they choose they can attend the Gospel Doctrine class, which goes a little deeper into their doctrines. Basically theological elaboration and discussion on the basics.

3. Then of course there is the Temple. Which has its own set of esoteric rituals; which are labeled as "sacred" not "secret" by LDs apolegists. The LDS Presidency since the easrly 90's has begun a campaign to look and appear more mainstream Christian (ie. Protestant or evangelical) and as per that have tried to distance themselves from their rather controverted past, which were filled with almost endless doctrinal contradiction and lack of cohesion. The gist is whatever the current President, Prophet, and Seer says is doctrine is what they teach anything previous notwithstanding. So like most pseudo-Christian sects, like the LDS, JW's et al, with each Administration they receive "more Light" which either replaces the previous doctrines, prepares for their retirement, or restates the old doctrine in new ways. They, in essence, have no Dogmas, eternal, unchangeable, Universal Truths, but rather doctrines which either have a shelf life or get replaced and repackaged as something more acceptable and amiable according to the times.

So if you ever get in a discussion with your LDS neighbors, the best thing to do is just be witness to your Catholic Faith in your lifestyle; you might have to agree to dis-agree, but to confront them directly about their doctrines would probably confirm the typical martyrs complex in groups like that. LDS people support traditional morality, although not as Traditional as Catholic Moral theology (i.e. they allow for abortion in cases of rape and if the mother is at risk of dying per a complicated pregnancy et al). LDS people, for the most part, have many good qualities or aspire to them as we all do, but they are gravely in error theologically and spiritually. Prayer is best in these circumstances.

Your friend in Christ and Mary,

Robert

[ 12-06-2001: Message edited by: Robert Horwath ]