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Re: Orthodox Hats - black/purple? #78653
10/16/04 10:15 AM
10/16/04 10:15 AM
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Fort Wayne, IN
Adam DeVille Offline
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What about other colours apart from black/purple? I know one Greek Catholic archpriest who wears a maroon skufia; and on the OCA website I've seen a protodeacon in a blue kamilavka.

And is there a handy handbook in English indicating when and where which hat is to be worn? I've always been told, eg., that as a subdeacon I can wear my skufia only *outside* the church. It would be interesting to see it spelled out somewhere the when, where, and what of holy headgear wink

Re: Orthodox Hats - black/purple? #78654
10/16/04 12:26 PM
10/16/04 12:26 PM
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Hermitage, PA
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Chtec Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by Adam DeVille:
What about other colours apart from black/purple? I know one Greek Catholic archpriest who wears a maroon skufia; and on the OCA website I've seen a protodeacon in a blue kamilavka.
Maroon, purple, and red are all basically variations of the same color, so they seem to be used interchangeably.

In the OCA, and in modern Russian practice, the archdeacon of the Primate wears a kamilavka that is the same color as the Primate's mantya. Thus, Metropolitan Herman's archdeacon, Fr. Alexi Klimitchev, wears a blue kamilavka, and the archdeacon of the Moscow Patriarch wears a dark green one (AFAIK).

Dave

Re: Orthodox Hats - black/purple? #78655
10/16/04 02:33 PM
10/16/04 02:33 PM
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Farmington Hills,MI
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Fr. Al Offline
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I must confess that I don't know of anything written in English(or RUSSIAN for that matter) about the system of awards, except I think you might find something on the website of the OCA's Holy Trinity Cathedral in San Francisco.I 'm hurrying to Vespers, so I don't have the time to look it up now.Someone asked about the practice of the OCA's Albanian, Bulgarian, and Romanian dioceses.I know that in those three home countries the black Greek style kamilavka is worn.I really don't know if that is carried over to these dioceses in the OCA or not.I was told by one ex-OCA priest that as a cleric in the Bulgarian diocese of that church he was given the right to wear the Palitsa(in the Greek tradition any priest who hears confessions wears the palitza, not just Archpriests).Allegedly, when he transferred to a "regular" OCA diocese, some priest or priests allegedly were "complaining" that this junior priest had the palitza.Again allegedly, the palitza was taken away from him and he was "compensated" with the nabedrenik and purple skuifiya.I only heard this from the priest in question.Perhaps someone like Andrew Rubis, who is a Reader, i believe, in the OCA Albanian diocese, can enlighten us about the practices there.

Re: Orthodox Hats - black/purple? #78656
10/16/04 02:50 PM
10/16/04 02:50 PM
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Massachusetts
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Irish Melkite Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by Adam DeVille:
And is there a handy handbook in English indicating when and where which hat is to be worn? ... It would be interesting to see it spelled out somewhere the when, where, and what of holy headgear wink
Adam,

I thought I recollected a website that had line drawings of Eastern vesture, including headgear, with discussion as to the wearing of same, but I lost a lot of links and a search turned up nothing.

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
Re: Orthodox Hats - black/purple? #78657
10/16/04 02:57 PM
10/16/04 02:57 PM
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Kansas/UGCC
Diak Offline
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Adam, I thought similarly, i.e. that "outdoor" wearing of the skufya is acceptable. I was also taught that indoor wearing of the skufya is fine if one is not serving at the altar (i.e. vested in riassa instead of stikharion and orarion), observing the proper times to remove the hat.

Dave, my understanding was the same, i.e. maroon was a variation on purple. I have seen some priests wearing red kamilavka, clearly not maroon or purple. I suppose a priest who is not an archpriest can wear variable colors as long as it is not purple?

The Bishop ultimately can bless them to wear whatever he feels appropriate.

Re: Orthodox Hats - black/purple? #78658
10/16/04 03:44 PM
10/16/04 03:44 PM
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Fraserview
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Herbigny Offline
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Actually I. I think this is a pretty germane thread (although I can readily understand how someone might find it a little weird). And trusting that you will be bear with me, I'll explain.

Quote
Originally posted by iconophile:
Um, does anyone else think that this discussion about liturgical colors, honorific symbols , etc, is a bit,well, pharisaical?
The whole hat thing is a bit of a shibboleth (kinda). It would be the same thing as if we were discussing whether to wear Phelons or Chasubles at the Divine Services, or to call our Eucharist "Mass" or "Divine Liturgy", or to for that matter to pray the Latin Mass rather than the Byzantine Divine Liturgy.

Clerical and Liturgical headgear are more or less now part of the Byzantine rite.

However in certain Latinising quarters (indeed some entire Eastern Churches {historically} - some even to this present day), Byzantine rite clergy intentionally either outright refuse to wear liturgical hats because they are "Orthodox" or wear hats made up to distinguish themselves from the hats of the Orthodox.

Thus this is all part of the Renewal of our Church. Plus in northern climates when one is at a burial for example, and the wind chill is 35 below, those liturgical hats were developped for a very good purpose!

And to refuse to wear them or to wear a tuque instead, just because the Orthodox wear Kamilavkas, well that seems to me is just refusing to embrace and implement our mission of reconcilation with the Orthodox, a mission given to us by the Church and the entire Catholic Communion.

Same thing about the colours, some people get all bent out of shape, if they see a Catholic priest in a coloured kamilavka. Why? Cause it Orthodox, and therefore bad! :rolleyes:

(ironically all those anti-hat people (clergy included) never have a problem when the Bishop awards a Mitra - somehow that's really "naash" and they conveniently forget that that is uniquely and purely Russian!)

Herb
-voting for the restoration of appropriate headgear for our clergy...

Re: Orthodox Hats - black/purple? #78659
10/16/04 08:49 PM
10/16/04 08:49 PM
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McKees Rocks, PA
Fr. Thomas Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by iconophile:
Um, does anyone else think that this discussion about liturgical colors, honorific symbols , etc, is a bit,well, pharisaical? I note that such esoteric discussions on this forum frequently merit several pages of discussion. while often substantive conversations fade out pretty quickly...
Probably no more pharisaical than pointing out such things.

PT

Re: Orthodox Hats - black/purple? #78660
10/16/04 10:09 PM
10/16/04 10:09 PM
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Diak Offline
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Father, bless.

Any thoughts or observations about the non-purple color variations (red, blue, etc.)?

Dave's observations are interesting about protodeacons/archdeacons associated with specific hierarchs wearing certain colors. I've seen Fr. Deacon Alexei not wear blue also, i.e. http://www.svots.edu/Three-Hierarchs-Chapel/2004-exaltation/pages/P9147131_JPG.htm

To my understanding the archdeacon was strictly a monastic and therefore only wore a black kamilavka liturgically. The protodeacon (a married deacon) could wear purple/maroon, and a deacon who was not a protodeacon could not wear a kamilavka liturgically, but could wear one outside anytime, or inside if he was not serving at the altar and only wearing a riassa.

Looking at some of the photos floating around from eparchies in Russia, it appears some protodeacons even serving for archbishops still wear purple/maroon and archdeacons (because of their monastic nature) wear black kamilavkas even if they are serving for archbishops.

I have seen priests wear blue skufyas for outdoor processions at Marian feasts even though they were not archpriests (along with deacons who were not protodeacons). That was a long time ago and if my memory serves me (which it likely isn't) they were Romanians.

Re: Orthodox Hats - black/purple? #78661
10/16/04 11:35 PM
10/16/04 11:35 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by Diak:
Dave's observations are interesting about protodeacons/archdeacons associated with specific hierarchs wearing certain colors. I've seen Fr. Deacon Alexei not wear blue also, i.e. http://www.svots.edu/Three-Hierarchs-Chapel/2004-exaltation/pages/P9147131_JPG.htm
Well, I have been told by a good friend (who is a seminarian and subdeacon at St. Tikhon's) that Fr. Alexei tends to color coordinate his kamilavka to match his vestments, hence the maroon kamilavka in the picture. biggrin

Also, as far as I know, the deacon of the Patriarch of Moscow is always known as an archdeacon, regardless of his marital/monastic status. The OCA has followed suit. Fr. Alexei is indeed an archdeacon, is married, and has children. Archdeacon Vsevelod (now in Italy, I believe) was in the same situation. But, aside from such primatial cases, you are correct, Diak, and all archdeacons are monks and wear black.

Dave

Re: Orthodox Hats - black/purple? #78662
10/17/04 02:33 PM
10/17/04 02:33 PM
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I received this in my e-mail this morning. It isn't specifically related to this thread, but it may be of interest to those who are liturgical hat aficionados. wink
The Skull Cap of the Syrian Priesthood

Dave

Re: Orthodox Hats - black/purple? #78663
10/17/04 07:25 PM
10/17/04 07:25 PM
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Posts: 441
McKees Rocks, PA
Fr. Thomas Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by Diak:
Father, bless.

Any thoughts or observations about the non-purple color variations (red, blue, etc.)?

Dave's observations are interesting about protodeacons/archdeacons associated with specific hierarchs wearing certain colors. I've seen Fr. Deacon Alexei not wear blue also, i.e. http://www.svots.edu/Three-Hierarchs-Chapel/2004-exaltation/pages/P9147131_JPG.htm

To my understanding the archdeacon was strictly a monastic and therefore only wore a black kamilavka liturgically. The protodeacon (a married deacon) could wear purple/maroon, and a deacon who was not a protodeacon could not wear a kamilavka liturgically, but could wear one outside anytime, or inside if he was not serving at the altar and only wearing a riassa.

Looking at some of the photos floating around from eparchies in Russia, it appears some protodeacons even serving for archbishops still wear purple/maroon and archdeacons (because of their monastic nature) wear black kamilavkas even if they are serving for archbishops.

I have seen priests wear blue skufyas for outdoor processions at Marian feasts even though they were not archpriests (along with deacons who were not protodeacons). That was a long time ago and if my memory serves me (which it likely isn't) they were Romanians.
Mayt the Lord God bless you.

I know that the red is just a variance of the purple/violet color, so no real significance that I'm aware of.

Archdeacon (I think?) Alexei is the deacon of the Metropolitan, so, first, he's an archdeacon (only time that happens for a married deacon, which he is - otherwise he's a protodeacon) and the blue hat may just go with the office? I don't know if there's a correlation between the color of the archdeacon's hat and the color of the Mantiya. (As you may know, each autocephalous church has it's own color for their primate. ROC is green, OCA is light blue, etc...) I'll try to find out the significance of the blue, but it just may be another variance of purple/violet/red; not really sure.

Yes, generally, in the Russian church, black hats are reserved for the monastics, except for the skufia. Anyone from reader on up can wear a black skufia (outside of church). The purple/violet/red skufia is the award. I can't really speak to other traditions and their colors. I think I noted previously that married Greek clergy do wear the black kamilavka, but that's not really done in the Russian tradition.

Priest Thomas

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