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#79147 05/21/01 10:44 PM
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Reply to Anastasios ,

If you do not like pews so much as to raise a big point over it, then why don't you go to a R.O.C.O.R. Parish who view themselves as "The Real Orthodox" ? They have no pews they also have preserved the old fashioned ways in the Russian style to the fullest. I am not Russian and neither is my church. I am Rusyn and my church , the Byzantine church predates the changes of Patriarch Nikon of the Russian church. He changed the Russian churches. Our Rusyn/Ruthenian ways are way older than that. Come up here to Pa one weekend and I will show you Rusyn churches that were here WITH pews before any Orthodox church was here. And yes we do do Prostrations during Lent. If you remove the pews here in America that will only enstrange the church even more so. Also then what about our Prostopinije chant? Should we drop congregational singing in favor of the Russian choirs only singing. Thats what goes on in Pewless Russian Rocor churches. What about children who would not be able to see the Liturgy do to their small size? What about the people always standing near the back at the doors always rendering the church crowded so you can not get to your saint's icon to light a candle? Do not compare me to dragging of feet and Latinizations. How do you know what was a Latinization verses a Russification? How come the Johnstown diocese said" Neither with Rome nor with Moscow?? Maybe you should come up here to the "Old country" in Pa and see how the old timers realy do it. I like the halfway between east and west church. My family after all is from the Carpathians and not Moscow. Have you ever seen the churches in Hungary, Slovakia and Ukraine.? They have pews and both statues as well as Icon screens. So overall what I am trying to say is that I as well as others like Our churches the way that they are Eastern with a little bit of Rome. Is that so wrong ??
Afterall Budapest is closer to Ruthenia than is Moscow. St's Cyril and Methodios got the Pope's blessing when Moscow was still a Viking trading town. Nothing Personal here Russian Orthodox churches are very beutiful in their full style of Pewless worship. But our Ruthenian churches are just that Americanised Rusyn as well as Hungarian and Croatian and Slovak and not Russian.

#79148 05/21/01 11:28 PM
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Christ is Risen!

Quote
Originally posted by Slava:
If you do not like pews so much as to raise a big point over it, then why don't you go to a R.O.C.O.R. Parish who view themselves as "The Real Orthodox" ? They have no pews they also have preserved the old fashioned ways in the Russian style to the fullest.

I suspect our friend should see an Old Rite parish - they've preserved the old Russian style best. More on this later.

Quote
I am not Russian and neither is my church. I am Rusyn and my church , the Byzantine church predates the changes of Patriarch Nikon of the Russian church. He changed the Russian churches. Our Rusyn/Ruthenian ways are way older than that. Come up here to Pa one weekend and I will show you Rusyn churches that were here WITH pews before any Orthodox church was here.

Let's not fall into the silly error of thinking Ruthenian use is the last word in Byzantine usage, shall we? Whatever Patriarch Nikon did, he certainly did not put pews in or introduce the Obikhod melodies for the choir. Not all of the Ruthenian usages are older than the Russian usages. Some are, I agree, but by no means all. I'd like to see some shaven Basilian priest try to convince me that those disgusting Molebens to the Sacred Heart or Low Litugies are authentic Byzantine-Ruthenian practices.


Quote
And yes we do do Prostrations during Lent. If you remove the pews here in America that will only enstrange the church even more so. Also then what about our Prostopinije chant? Should we drop congregational singing in favor of the Russian choirs only singing. Thats what goes on in Pewless Russian Rocor churches. What about children who would not be able to see the Liturgy do to their small size? What about the people always standing near the back at the doors always rendering the church crowded so you can not get to your saint's icon to light a candle?

Let's not generalise. I've seen some ROCOR parishes with impressive congregational singing. What does one do with children? That's easy - families with children go to the front! It's every pastor's duty to make sure he teaches proper pewless-church manners: families with children go in front and don't crowd anywhere.

Quote
Do not compare me to dragging of feet and Latinizations. How do you know what was a Latinization verses a Russification? How come the Johnstown diocese said" Neither with Rome nor with Moscow?? Maybe you should come up here to the "Old country" in Pa and see how the old timers realy do it.

How do we know? Compare your usages with the Old Rite. The Old Rite is known for tenaciously preserving the smallest bits of ritual and tradition - they're very useful. If you consider all things from Russia suspect, then have a look at St Peter Mohyla's Liturgikon and Trebnyk - the facsimiles were published some years back. Those two books surprised everyone - some things we thought were russifications/latinisations turned out to be authentic Ruthenian use, and vice-versa. Neither Rome not Moscow is all well and good, but one must remember the Johnstown people wanted a jurisdiction that wouldn't take away their horrid latinisations - Constantinople allows pretty much anything to happen as long as one commemorates them. See how the 'old-timers' do it? On their knees (on sunday no less) with rosaries in hand, reading indulgenced prayers to the Sacred Heart (byzantinised only by adding i vo vieki viekov at the end)? That's something I saw all the time in London's Ukrainian Cathedral, and a sight I could well do without.

Quote
I like the halfway between east and west church. My family after all is from the Carpathians and not Moscow. Have you ever seen the churches in Hungary, Slovakia and Ukraine.? They have pews and both statues as well as Icon screens.

They should dump the pews and statues.

Quote
So overall what I am trying to say is that I as well as others like Our churches the way that they are Eastern with a little bit of Rome. Is that so wrong ??

YES. It's quite wrong. Until we recover our liturgical patrimony, we're a handicapped people. Rosaries and benediction of the Blessed Sacrament are nice, but keep them in Latin parishes - they have no place in ours.

Quote
Afterall Budapest is closer to Ruthenia than is Moscow. St's Cyril and Methodios got the Pope's blessing when Moscow was still a Viking trading town. Nothing Personal here Russian Orthodox churches are very beutiful in their full style of Pewless worship. But our Ruthenian churches are just that Americanised Rusyn as well as Hungarian and Croatian and Slovak and not Russian.

I suspect this is less about being fully-Byzantine than not wanting to be Russian. Nevertheless Slava represents the latinised mentality and perhaps there are more of them around than we think. I'm not advocating having a secret police that tears rosaries out of the hands of old ladies, but we really should phase these things out slowly.

Yours in Domino,

Edward

#79149 05/22/01 02:07 AM
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The Tsar is dead. And we aren't anywhere near Budapest (unless there's one tucked away in some small valley in Pennsylvania.)

The key factor is that we live in America. When our ancestors came over here from where-ever and when-ever, they began to worship in rectory living rooms or later in church buildings they bought from somebody else. (My grandparents' church was built Unitarian, converted to a synagogue and later to an Orthodox church.) It has pews -- big long ones with NO center aisle -- which means the Great Entrance takes fully three minutes. It has balconies on both sides; a MASSIVE Hook and Hastings pipe organ (on the historic registry) and white frosted windows.

Our ancestors worshipped wherever they could and made do. A key point is: in contemporary American culture, there are things that are considered 'churchy'. And these things, like steeples, organs, stained glass, bell towers (with those abominable canned tapes), choir robes with stole-doo-dahs and tassels, microphoned lecterns, 'Roman collars', and the much-maligned pews, have had a profound affect upon ALL religious communities in our country. Even the Jews have 'fallen victim' to this American Religious culture.

The question is: is it necessary for us to abjure our culture's perception of what is 'religious'? Or can we get away with integrating what is in our contemporary culture with our inherited religious cultural values?

Too many folks seem to think that we should be emulating what was 'our tradition' in X year and in Y location. Some would have us eschew electric lights; others have a problem with central heating or air-conditioning. Some would have us remove any kind of seating. Still others want us to chant in foreign tongues because it seems to be more 'holy' or 'pleasing to God'.

Elsewhere in the forum there is raging debate about evangelization and what we have to do to spread the word about the Gospel of Christ. Isn't that the purpose of the ekklesia/community? Do we really want to invite 21st century unchurched Americans to a 2-hour worship service, where they can't comprehend the language, and can't even sit down? For a historical, theatrical experience of X century in Y country, sure. For a vibrant faith-experience? I don't think we'd be anywhere near the mark.

I love history, cultural anthropology, music and languages. But for preaching the Gospel of Christ, I've got to get beyond my own parochial interests and ecclesiastical fetishes, and truly investigate how I can best bring the unchurched into the fold of the praying baptized. Otherwise we're just 'playing baptized'.

Christ is Risen! (For another 2 days!)

#79150 05/22/01 04:31 AM
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Originally posted by Edward Yong:
Christ is Risen!

I suspect this is less about being fully-Byzantine than not wanting to be Russian. Nevertheless Slava represents the latinised mentality and perhaps there are more of them around than we think. I'm not advocating having a secret police that tears rosaries out of the hands of old ladies, but we really should phase these things out slowly.

Yours in Domino,

Edward


Mr. Yong Your reply to mine acts as if I have a disease comprable to Leprosy or something and you call it "Latinisation". I may be wrong here but I suspect by your name that you are not originally or may not at all be Byzantine Catholic. So how can you at all condemn me or my views without knowing where or what I am from ? You do not know my family or background or things that motivate my thinking. Obviously many of us Byzantine rite Catholics are comfortable with the way things are or were. Are you saying that our previous Bishops were in Error when they allowed such "Latinisations" into our Churches? What are your comments on the great and well loved Bishop Basil Takach I wonder ? The only people I see that are wanting to so called "Change our churches back to the way they used to be" are newby converts mostly from Protestant faiths. All I am saying is that I am comfortable with the way things are done now and It is my choice to like them or hate them whether or not you do . My Church has responded magnificiantly in the restructuring process since Vatican 2. We have Liturgies every day as well as on Sat. Evening and two on Sunday. One of which is fully Slavonic. Our parish is vibrant and healthy {Praise be to GOD} We have Catholics of all rights attending as well as Orthodox too. So just to suit the fresh converts I am not going to throw out all of the things I was taught all thru Cathecism and First Holy Communion just like that . I do not think it is wrong to have pews or a couple of statues as long as I here my Liturgy sung and smell the Incense while looking at the icons on the screen as I pray..
It is pure testimony to me of a "Catholic" church in the universal meaning of the word.
I dare you to go to presant day Ukraine in the Carpathians and say to them to phase out the Rosary or get rid of your statues Mr Yong. Have you ever seen the Ukrainian version of the Fatima Icon ?? You call it Latinisation , I call it ecumenical, where East and West meet. Truly Catholic.

#79151 05/22/01 05:28 AM
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And just when I thought I'd read/heard it all, along comes this thread. We've got every opinion under the sun ranging from that "disgusting Sacred Heart moleben" to advocating emulation of the East-West hybrid Byzantine Catholic Church as supposedly exists in Europe.

But somehow in the midst of all this "PC" artificially de-latinized Byzantine Christianity (that truly exists only in cyberspace) you all missed the fact that several posters are under the impression that the "no Paschal kneeling rule" ends at Ascension!! Sorry, we have kneeling prayers at Vespers on Holy Pentecost, which is when we resume prayer "on bended knee."

I went to Liturgy on Sunday morning here in "old country" far northeast PA, in a "Ukrainian" parish that is the last holdout in the Archdiocese of Phila. and refuses to add "Ukrainian" to its title (its cornerstone reads, "Russian Greek Catholic Church" with "Uniat" added in later).

There was no incense, the people knelt at all the "proper" times (even though it is Paschaltide), there was a BVM statue beside the ikonostas (all "Mayed" up), a deacon assisted the priest, and the whole Liturgy was recited EXCEPT for the Christos Voskreses. (They have a cantor, in case you were wondering, but all he did was chant the Epistle.) Of course, no ektenias were omitted, the Anaphora was said aloud, and the propers of the 6th Paschal Sunday were all taken, so the caricature "low Mass" it authentically was not.

Since I fancy myself as only semi-Latinized, I sat rather than knelt, so as not to call undue attention to myself.

Oh, and God forbid, this Wednesday evening they're having recitation of the Rosary followed by the (disgusting?) Moleben to the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Yet, I (as a stranger there) was greeted with warmth and openness the likes of which I've never found in a parish in the "new world."

I guess I should organize a field trip of the whole lot of you to go and teach those poor unenlightened Latinized people how to be Byzantine Catholics... maybe they could teach you all a thing or too as well.

[This message has been edited by RichC (edited 05-22-2001).]

#79152 05/22/01 05:44 AM
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Joj, Boz~e mij... my memory must be going in my old age. You know what they say, "starost' ne radost'" (with apologies to the moderator, who is probably lost now).

I almost forgot. The above-mentioned parish also recited "filioque" in their (hybrid?) creed, and the people genuflect before seating themselves in the pews.

I am **NEVER** going there again!!

#79153 05/22/01 11:12 AM
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And these things, like steeples, organs, stained glass, bell towers (with those abominable canned tapes), choir robes with stole-doo-dahs and tassels, microphoned lecterns, 'Roman collars', and the much-maligned pews, have had a profound affect upon ALL religious communities in our country.

Not ours.

The truth Edward Yong is telling, as are other Byzantine Catholics here, is that we �Constantinopolitan Christians� (as Dr John calls those of us of the Orthodox tradition) don�t need those foreign imports from the Latins and Protestants, any more than you need to rip out iconostases to �look Catholic� (ugh). If Vietnamese Buddhists and Arab and black convert Muslims don�t have to affect these things to be really American (despite assimilationist nonsense from some people), why should we?

Serge
a born American

<a href="http://oldworldrus.com">Old World Rus�</a>

[This message has been edited by Rusnak (edited 05-22-2001).]

#79154 05/22/01 11:26 AM
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Are you saying that our previous Bishops were in Error when they allowed such "Latinisations" into our Churches?

Excuse me, as this question was directed to Edward, but yes. It was a mistake.

What are your comments on the great and well loved Bishop Basil Takach I wonder?

If he had defended the agreements of Brest-Litovsk and U�horod against infringement by Cum data fuerit, the 1929 ban on ordaining married men in North America, the Chornock schism (now the Johnstown Diocese) never would have happened and your Church would be considerably bigger and stronger today as a result.

I pray the Rosary at home and do sympathize with the older �Greek Catholics� who do such devotions. You also have a point about converts �telling you what to do�. But ultimately, objectively, they�re right.

Serge

<a href="http://oldworldrus.com">Old World Rus�</a>

[This message has been edited by Rusnak (edited 05-22-2001).]

#79155 05/22/01 12:28 PM
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Slava,

You should really go read the accounts of Ezra-Nehemiah and how the faithful tried to rebuild the city and the Temple. Read how much grief they got when they tried to bring back the true authentic ways against the "conservatives" who wanted little to do with the "new" ideas brought by the "newbies".

The bottom line: Will we be true to our patrimony or not? Will we be true to the call of the Holy Father to reclaim our true patrimony or not?

It is faithful both to the identity God has given us and true to our Pope. To be sure the changes should be carefully and gently done but they cannot be done without opposition. Nevertheless they must be done.

Why? Because our mission is to help reunite East and West. We cannot do it unless we are honest about who we are.

Dan Lauffer

#79156 05/22/01 01:33 PM
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>> Will we be true to the call of the Holy Father to reclaim our true patrimony or not? <<


Of course, you mean the present Holy Father.


Many Greek Orthodox activists want to know what Byzantine Catholics will do if the next, or any future Holy Father, agrees with Slava that Byzantine Catholicism should be what it currently is: a hybrid of the East and the West that, to some, is neither Catholic or Orthodox.


Also, what guarantees are there (for the Orthodox) that future popes, not so favorably sympathetic to the East, will not wreak havoc within the Eastern Christian communities by forcing Latin practices or ideology upon them?


Under the current papal system, there can be no guarantees that the rights of the Orthodox will be protected; this fact is the most legitimate reason to eschew even the thought of union/reunion.


"A fat fly in the honey," Greeks would say.


Also, in reference to Greek attitudes toward reunion with Catholicism, it has been posted that a small majority (56.8%) were favorably disposed toward "ultimate" reunion (according to a recent poll). However, these numbers quickly change to the negative when specific questions are asked, such as:


---Do you believe divorce should be banned by a Greek Church in union with Rome?

---Do you believe birth control should be banned by a Greek Church in union with Rome?

---Do you believe the Pope of Rome should have the right to intervene in the affairs of the Greek Church?

---etc.


The devil of division does seem to be in the details.


Vasili
---






[This message has been edited by Vasili (edited 05-22-2001).]

#79157 05/22/01 02:02 PM
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Slava wrote:
If you do not like pews so much as to raise a big point over it, then why don't you go to a R.O.C.O.R. Parish who view themselves as "The Real Orthodox" ? They have no pews they also have preserved the old fashioned ways in the Russian style to the fullest.

Anastasios: what do pews have to do with Russsian vs. Rusyn?

Slava: I am not Russian and neither is my church.

Anastasios: Hey, we have something in common because I'm not Russian either!

Slava: I am Rusyn and my church , the Byzantine church predates the changes of Patriarch Nikon of the Russian church.

Anastasios: Well I'm not ethnically Rusyn but my girlfriend is a Slav and I can conversationally speak Slovak and Old Church Slavonic a little, and when I tried to read a Rusyn newspaper I understood the basic jist of what was going on. Do you speak Rusyn?

Slava: He changed the Russian churches. Our Rusyn/Ruthenian ways are way older than that.

Anastasios: Ahhhh but he did NOT take out the pews---they were never there my friend--in our Church, the Rusyn Church, OR the Latin Church!

Slava: Come up here to Pa one weekend and I will show you Rusyn churches that were here WITH pews before any Orthodox church was here.

Anastasios: How is that a valid argument??? If Carpatho Rusyn Catholic Churches were in America first with pews before Orthodox Churches were in America without pews, that does not affect the fact that in Europe the first churches did not have pews!


Slava: If you remove the pews here in America that will only enstrange the church even more so.

Anastasios: We did, and everything works fine...

Slava: Also then what about our Prostopinije chant? Should we drop congregational singing in favor of the Russian choirs only singing.

Anastasios: Actually I prefer Prostopinije to Russian Choirs. Of course, I have been at Carpatho Rusyn Churches where only the choir sings, too!

Slava: Thats what goes on in Pewless Russian Rocor churches.

Anastsios: what are you talking about?? Just because I advocate pewless churches does not make me some sort of cryto Russian! you assume that the Russian Church is some monolith, too. For instance, if I don't like pews, I *must* hate singing because that's what "those Russians" do. You seem to be harboring some anti-Russian racism, at that. Stop stereotyping me.

Slava: What about children who would not be able to see the Liturgy do to their small size? What about the people always standing near the back at the doors always rendering the church crowded so you can not get to your saint's icon to light a candle?

Anastasios: Bring the kids up front. What about the prostrations I can't do due to someone's pew in front of me? What about trying to get around those who aren't going forward to receive? Without pews I can move about freely!


Slava: How do you know what was a Latinization verses a Russification?

Anastasios: It's called historical research. Fr. Taft and many others could assist you with that. You can read their works.

Slava: How come the Johnstown diocese said" Neither with Rome nor with Moscow??

Anastasios: You are rambling now. I don't particularly like Moscow. I am for an independent Ukrainian patriarchate, too.

Slava: Maybe you should come up here to the "Old country" in Pa and see how the old timers realy do it.

Anastasios: I did that and noticed a lot of their kids going to Roman Catholic Churches.

Slava: I like the halfway between east and west church. My family after all is from the Carpathians and not Moscow.

Anastasios: Give it up.

Slava: Have you ever seen the churches in Hungary, Slovakia and Ukraine.? They have pews and both statues as well as Icon screens.

Anastasios: Why yes I have! Hey, here's a bishop of our church wearing one of those "funny Russian hats!" :-0 http://www.rcc.sk/kbs/biskupi/chautur.html Just because they have pews in Slovakia doesn't mean that's the older practice those. And Not all parishes have them. How many have you gone to?

Slava: So overall what I am trying to say is that I as well as others like Our churches the way that they are Eastern with a little bit of Rome. Is that so wrong ??

Anastasios: Well, liturgically, yes. Private devotion, no.

Slava: Afterall Budapest is closer to Ruthenia than is Moscow. St's Cyril and Methodios got the Pope's blessing when Moscow was still a Viking trading town.

Anastasios: I guess you forgot that Sts. Cyril and Methodius (no apostrophe like you wrote by the way) were Greeks. Many Greek Churches in Greece don't pews, either. I guess Patriarch Nikon forced them to add them.

Slava: Nothing Personal here Russian Orthodox churches are very beutiful in their full style of Pewless worship. But our Ruthenian churches are just that Americanised Rusyn as well as Hungarian and Croatian and Slovak and not Russian

Anastasios: Russian does not equal Orthodox. Sorry, you need to read up a little more.

anastasios

#79158 05/22/01 02:04 PM
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Dear Vasili,

You are right, of course.

The paradigm of church unity we Byz Catholics are under is still very Romanist.

Unity cannot imply absorption or a "takeover" of the East by Rome (as was happening at Florence even before the final union documents were signed!).

Rome has a very bureaucratic view of Church unity where one Church means one Church administration etc.

Apart from the sad experience of the Eastern Catholics, there is also that of the Western Rites that were suppressed by Rome as well.

Unity, I believe, will come through an inner conversion of heart according to God's way, not ours.

Alex

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Once again, Dr. John, you attempt to end discussion on an issue by claiming that a discussion about pews "has nothing to do with Evangelization" or "contemporary 21st century culture."

You are right that it is not a major issue. But it is relevent and we are discussing it here. No one is going to stop evangelizing becuase we are busy throwing out pews. We can do more than one thing at a time, my friend.

I note an interesting paradox in your writings. You have an almost god-like veneration of our ancestors (rightly so), but then you ridcule those who would like to return to authenitic Byzantine practice. Perhaps you mean those who push every silly nuance like "pronouncing the v in viki vikov the 'correct' unoverly palatized Russian way". I'd agree with you there. But wanting to reestablish practices that are authentic to the Byzantine Rite DO have relevence to our times.

As far as not adhering to our culture's religious perceptions: it is my observation that when you are different, you attract those dissatisfied with the current mainline Protestant stuff. No one in our church (which regularly attracts converts) ever complains that we don't have pews, that no one wears choir robes, etc. We don't need to "fit in." The Byzantine Rite is so beautiful that people are drawn to it. So let's not water it down in a misguided attemtp to fit in and get more people. It will only make people think there is no difference between us and a Baptist church.

Dr J: Too many folks seem to think that we should be emulating what was 'our tradition' in X year and in Y location.

Anastasios: They didn't do it that way for no good reason, Dr. John. And us trying to restore that is a good thing. It's not about slavishly copying someone else's worship; it's about being part of the "natural flow" which is the Byzantine Rite and which has spawned countless generations.

Dr. J: Some would have us eschew electric lights; others have a problem with central heating or air-conditioning.

Anastasios: What?? Oh come on, you must be joking.

Dr. John: Some would have us remove any kind of seating.

Anastasios: That was a slick and subtle trick. Lump anti-pew people with those who don't like AC. You are incredibly condescending sometimes.

Dr. J: Still others want us to chant in foreign tongues because it seems to be more 'holy' or 'pleasing to God'.

Anastsios: Well I agree with you there.

Dr. J: Do we really want to invite 21st century unchurched Americans to a 2-hour worship service, where they can't comprehend the language, and can't even sit down?

Yes. 2 hour standing services are great. There are chairs on the side for those who are tired. I agree with the point about foreign languages, though.

Dr. J: For a historical, theatrical experience of X century in Y country, sure. For a vibrant faith-experience? I don't think we'd be anywhere near the mark.

Anastasios: Why don't you just become a Novus Ordo liberal, Dr. John?? Hey, you'd fit right in becuase you could just make up the rules as you go. Who needs rubrics and texts anyway? Those are just dinousaur holdovers from the dark ages!


I love history, cultural anthropology, music and languages. But for preaching the Gospel of Christ, I've got to get beyond my own parochial interests and ecclesiastical fetishes, and truly investigate how I can best bring the unchurched into the fold of the praying baptized. Otherwise we're just 'playing baptized'.

Anastasios: I agree. That's why we need to restore the Byznatine Rite to its fullest--becuase the parishes that do are gaining many converts, and the ones that don't slowly die out.

Christ is risen!
anastasios

#79160 05/22/01 02:39 PM
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Anastasios,

Not to leap in with both feet, but there really are parishes who don't use electricity, AC, etc. Dunno how intimately that's linked to evangelization, tho' somewhere along the line it probably is.

Everybody's got an idea of what is holiest & most beautiful.


Cheers,


Sharon


Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor & sinner
sharon@cmhc.com

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Good morning,

I have seen pictures of a Maronite Catholic Church in Milawukee in the 1920s that looked identical to a Latin Rite church. On this particular Sunday, the children of the parish were celebrating First Holy Communion. Never mind that in the Maronite Church, as in all Byzantine Churches, the Mysteries of Baptism, Chrismation [Confirmation to us Latin Catholics] and Communion were to be administered to infants. It is sad when the Eastern Catholic Churches have to make themselves look Latin to try and 'fit in.'

Archbishop Nicholas Elko has been categorized as a 'harsh Westerner' as to what he did to the Byzantine Ruthenian Catholic Church. For instance, such Latin Rite traditions such as Stations of the Cross and the Rosary were mandated for Ruthenian Catholics during Archbishop Elko's tenure. So, to many Latin Rite Catholics [due to Archbishop Elko's Westernizations] Byzantine Catholics are, if Latin Rite Catholics know anything about Byzantine Catholics, Byzantine Catholics are 'Catholics with a funny Mass and perogies' and that is so sad.

After Archbishop Elko went to Rome to be the ordaining bishop for the Byzantine Rite, he became an auxiliary bishop to the Latin Rite archbishop of Chicago. He is buried in Cincinnati, not at Uniontown.

I have a friend who recently switched from being Latin Rite to Ruthenian who attended Saint Vincent College in Latrobe, Pennsylvania. He went to three Ruthenian Catholic parishes while attending SVC. Two of these Ruthenian parishes looked like a pre-Vatican II Latin Rite church - no iconstatus, no icons, communion rail, high altar, tabernacle, et cetera.


The Eastern Catholic churches in union with the Holy See have been instructed by the Holy See to return to their traditions. Some Byzantine Catholics who were growing up during the Elko years do not know their rightful traditions and want to stick to the hybrid Latinized church that they know. These people resisted Metropolitan Judson's efforts to reclaim the traditions of the East and to make the Byzantine Ruthenian Catholic Church more welcoming of all and not just a church for people of Slavic origin.


Michael
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