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Re: Lay Epistle Readers #80775
06/03/03 07:12 AM
06/03/03 07:12 AM
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Kansas/UGCC
Diak Offline
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Quote
The book was handy while I was new to it, but I often find myself fighting the book (Here we jump to page 27, now back to 14? Or are we in the handout? Where are we?)

So eventually I put it down. When I knew, I sang. When I didn't know, I listened.
Good points Neil. One tends to sing and participate with much more strength and "umph" if the hymns, texts, etc. are from memory. It is hard to participate efficaciously when you're spending more time fooling about with flipping pages or figuring out where you are.

I also agree that when you are completely lost it is much better to just listen to the choir or the reader instead of flustering about with a book you are unfamiliar with. There most certainly is a "passive participation" in which we prayerfully medidate on the texts of the reader.

Quote
Oh, and as a Latin, I'd know anyone who uses a book, except for the hymns, and that's only if its new. Even with hymns--we only use the same dozen or so.
And with us, if you know "Lord have mercy" "To You, O Lord" "Glory to the Father" and "Amen" you already know half of the Liturgy, right? wink

Re: Lay Epistle Readers #80776
08/09/03 10:23 AM
08/09/03 10:23 AM
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Posts: 1,070
Arizona
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Our parish uses the Vernoski leaflet as a supplement to the Liturgy book. Our senior cantor does not read music, but is very knowledgable with regard to what has come and gone over the years within American Ruthenian church music, has a wonderful delivery, and harmonizes intuitively.

Since there are fundamental differences in how the Prokeimenon etc. are delivered by the Lector nowadays, I will be glad when the new Liturgy arrives. Currently, our congregation follows more of a Greek tradition: Prokeimenon/Verse/Prokeimenon, with some of the congregation singing all of them, rather than the version presented by Professor Thompson earlier on this thread. We are experimenting with the Cantor singing the Prokeimenon, Lector doing the Verse, then Cantor doing the Prokeimenon again. Prior to the leaflet, we used the same Prokeimenon and Alleluia every Sunday, but at least we are making progress- in the right direction, I think. smile

As for Fr. Mark's idea of taking books away, there are far too many Tropars, Kontaks, etc. for people to know by heart nowadays. I doubt that even cradle Byzantines would remember them all. When we didn't use the leaflet, the changeable propers were mainly done at the cantor stand without much congregational participation, except for those that are used fairly frequently (Resurrection Tones, for example). That has changed by using the leaflet.

Re: Lay Epistle Readers #80777
08/09/03 05:37 PM
08/09/03 05:37 PM
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A reader is both tonsured and ordained, as you may see from the Hapgood or any other complete translation of the ordination services. However, the reader and the subdeacon are ordained in the nave, not in the altar. For this and other reasons these ordinations are termed "cheirothesia", not "cheirotonia".
Might it not be well to revive the use of the short phelonion as the proper vestment of the reader (over the cassock, of course)? Incognitus

Re: Lay Epistle Readers #80778
08/09/03 10:09 PM
08/09/03 10:09 PM
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Posts: 81
Woodside, Queens, New York
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Was the reception of Minor Orders ever an impediment to Marriage?

Re: Lay Epistle Readers #80779
08/10/03 01:20 AM
08/10/03 01:20 AM
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Posts: 331
Saratoga Springs, New York
Three Cents Offline
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According to the 7th Canon of Quinisext (Trullo) "no subdeacon, deacon, or presbyter, is allowed after he is ordained to contract marriage." In North America however (in some circumstances), single men have been ordained Subdeacon with proviso (from their bishop) that they are allowed to marry. However, many bishops do not allow a single subdeacon to marry (in strict obedience to this Canon). Perhaps more correctly, they will not ordain a single subdeacon unless they are to be ordained deacon as a celibate (normally on the same day).

Father Stanley Harakas (retired Dean of Holy Cross Greek Orthodox School of Theology outside of Boston) wrote a great little book published in '78 called "Something is Stirring in World Orthodoxy" (Light and Life). On page 44, Fr Harakas writes (regarding preparation for the Orthodox Great and Holy Synod, if it ever takes place) "Regarding the marriage of clergy, the 1972 report gingerly suggested that Deacons might be permitted to be ordained unmarried with the right to marry before their ordination to the Priesthood, 'lest the ranks of the clergy be diminished in number'".

However, I know of no examples of this allowance to marry (technically by economia) beyond the Subdiaconate. In fact, I know a Subdeacon who was ordained as a single man and was told by the bishop that he would ordain the single Subdeacon to the Diaconate if he requested it, but then he would not be allowed to marry.

Christ Is Among Us! Indeed He Was, Is and Ever Shall Be!

Three Cents

Re: Lay Epistle Readers #80780
08/10/03 11:24 PM
08/10/03 11:24 PM
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Kansas/UGCC
Diak Offline
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Might it not be well to revive the use of the short phelonion as the proper vestment of the reader (over the cassock, of course)? Incognitus
Even if the readers just wore riassas or stikhars after tonsure, that would be a start. Reinstating tonsuring would also be a positive step in restoring the tradition of setting aside the readers.

The felonchik is generally only seen in the Old Rite in use outside of the actual service of tonsuring itself. It has been long out of use even amongst the Orthodox except when it is conferred on the day of the chierotesia of the reader.

Nikol'sky mentions that the readers of the early 16th century wore them in Russia. In fact, in the gramatas (ordination certificates) for readers in Russia at this time it specifically stated that they had the authority to publicly function as readers only when wearing the felonchik over a riassa.

Bishop Tikhon of the OCA once was discussing the issue of readers and he stated that one shouldn't approach to be tonsured in the first place if one isn't going to wear what the bishop and the church have given them as a visible sign of their cheirotesia, i.e. the stikharion to read in. He was speaking about the decline of tonsured readers in Orthodox parishes as well as the abuse of tonsured readers not reading in the stikharion.

Re: Lay Epistle Readers #80781
08/11/03 08:01 AM
08/11/03 08:01 AM
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Ѳулκαндρα
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Originally posted by incognitus:
Might it not be well to revive the use of the short phelonion as the proper vestment of the reader (over the cassock, of course)? Incognitus
Of course, this begs the question: High back or low? biggrin

Andrij

Re: Lay Epistle Readers #80782
08/11/03 08:07 AM
08/11/03 08:07 AM
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Ѳулκαндρα
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Quote
Originally posted by Diak:
Nikol'sky mentions that the readers of the early 16th century wore them in Russia. In fact, in the gramatas (ordination certificates) for readers in Russia at this time it specifically stated that they had the authority to publicly function as readers only when wearing the felonchik over a riassa.
Diak,

Sorry for 'picking nits' but would the felonchyk be worn over a riassa or over the podriassnyk? Wearing it over the riassa seems a bit much. Also, I thought the riassa was "choir dress" and not worn while actually serving.

BTW, if the day ever comes, mine will be high-back. wink

Andrij

Re: Lay Epistle Readers #80783
08/11/03 09:23 AM
08/11/03 09:23 AM
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Kansas/UGCC
Diak Offline
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CIX Andrij!

In Novgorod or Kyiv in January you probably wouldn't mind a riassa over the podriasnik with the felonchik on top. biggrin

South Texas or Louisiana in August, that's another story...

Re: Lay Epistle Readers #80784
08/11/03 01:43 PM
08/11/03 01:43 PM
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The reader's short phelonion can, I suppose, be either Slav or Greek style, though I've never seen the Greeks use them, not even at ordinations. Anyone being ordained a reader in any of the Slav Churches is well advised to provide his own short phelonion, which he can at least keep as a memento of the occasion. For those serving in hot climes, I recommend light-weight silk cassock and Greek-style light-weight sil riassa (don't cheat on the silk; silk is a natural fibre and breathes much better than synthetics do). Incognitus

Re: Lay Epistle Readers #80785
08/12/03 10:43 PM
08/12/03 10:43 PM
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Speaking of felonchyks, at my tonsure as reader I got to wear, albeit for only a few minutes, a felonchyk that had been blessed by St. Vasyl Velychkovsky. smile

The Greek Euchologion makes no mention of the felonchyk and neither the Greeks or those following the Greek usage such as the Antiochians make use of the felonchyk. They go right to vesting with the stikhar.

I personally wouldn't mind having the readers wear a felonchyk over a podriasnyk to distinguish their office from those serving on the altar.

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