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Mateusz Offline OP
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as the talks of a Ukrainian Catholic Patriarchate of Kyiv is ongoing, and it is proper for it to happen once the Patriarchal Cathedral is completed, i cant help to think what that means for those in the "diaspora" that Ukrainian Catholics abroad are refered too. so my question is what is the relationship of the Ukrainian Catholics outside Ukraine with Kyiv? especially when Kyiv is named a patriarchate, how will that impact Ukrainians Catholics abroad, will it strengthen out status here or have no impact at all? I think the Ukrainian Church abroad is only starting to come out of the immigrant churh mentality which obviously makes us dependent on L'viv/Kyiv but is it neccessary anymore? this could be a complicated issue but i'm just looking to reach a good understanding for the future of our church, thanks.

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The relationship of diaspora Ukrainian Greek-Catholics to the Patriarchate is up to what everyone makes of it. The record of the Melkites during and since the days of Patriarch Maximos IV is certainly encouraging.

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I am Ukrainian Orthodox and I will freely state there are many things I do not understand about the relationship between Rome and the Ukrainian Catholic Church.
I have read the posts on this forum about married clergy in the diaspora. I may be wrong but it seems to me there are more married clergy in the Ukrainian Catholic Church in Canada than in the USA. Does anyone have any statistics? The Eparchy of Toronto in partucular has supported married clergy.

If a patriarch is established with the approval of Rome for the Ukrainian Catholic Church, why would the diasora eparchies not want to be part of it? Would it not strengthen the diaspora's ties to their Eastern heritage?

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Eventually, I suppose, at least the diaspora eparchies in the USA and (separately) Canada will wish to be Local Churches in their own right; daughters do grow up in their own time.

But for now, it is much better that they should relate to the Patriarchate in Ukraine, for several reasons that I won't go into at the moment (mostly for lack of time).

I don't have actual figures handy but you are correct; the ordination of married priests was much stronger in Canada than in the USA. Partly this was because of Bishop Isidore of Toronto, who simply would not take "no" for an answer, but it is also the case that somehow it was slightly but discernibly easier in Canada than in the US - why that was, I don't know. As an indication, when Patriarch Maximos V ordained a married deacon to the priesthood for the US Melkite diocese, he took the deacon and the guests to Montreal for the occasion.

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Patriarch Lubomyr was educated in Washington, at Catholic University and St. Josaphat Seminary.

He was ordained a priest for the Eparchy of Stamford and was Pastor in upstate New York before going to Rome to serve Patriarch Josyf.

Bishop Hlib Lonchyna, who represents the UGCC in Rome, was born in Ohio, if my memory is corect.

Metropolitan Stefan of Philadelphia is a Canadian by birth.

I don't think this Church will feel itself divided by political dotted lines.

John
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Miller asks:
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... Does anyone have any statistics? ...
In the Eparchy of Edmonton (Alberta, Canada) there are currently 21 Eparchial Priests (and a bunch of Basilians). 16 are married and 5 are celebate.

I have no idea why the USA would be "slower" to ordain married men. If I can learn the answer I will share it.

Fr. Bo (a married one)

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I should also note that of our two seminarian types, one is looking for a good potential " dobrodika" and the other is getting married in about a month.

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If a patriarch is established with the approval of Rome for the Ukrainian Catholic Church, why would the diasora eparchies not want to be part of it? Would it not strengthen the diaspora's ties to their Eastern heritage?
Miller, no doubt someone will come along and correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is this. None of the Eastern Catholic churches outside of the boundaries of their patriarchates or ecclesial territories are directly under the supervision of their mother churches. I believe the mother churches can only offer support and guidance. Bishops for instance in diaspora EC churches are confirmed and answer directly to Rome. Rather astonishing if my understanding is true.

Andrew

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Originally posted by Rilian:
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If a patriarch is established with the approval of Rome for the Ukrainian Catholic Church, why would the diasora eparchies not want to be part of it? Would it not strengthen the diaspora's ties to their Eastern heritage?
Miller, no doubt someone will come along and correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is this. None of the Eastern Catholic churches outside of the boundaries of their patriarchates or ecclesial territories are directly under the supervision of their mother churches. I believe the mother churches can only offer support and guidance. Bishops for instance in diaspora EC churches are confirmed and answer directly to Rome. Rather astonishing if my understanding is true.

Andrew
You are not wrong.

One thing I have been told (just to fan the flames a bit) is that this was not true until after Vatican II, and not a result of the Council, but as a curial decision afterward. It incensed Patriarch Maximos IV Sayegh.

Concerning the Byzantine Tradition exclusively for the moment, this would have affected primarily the Melkites at the time. The Ukrainians then were not hitting on all cylinders because the church in Europe had been suppressed and Rome considered it not to have a synod (at least that is my understanding). Without a synod the diaspora fell to the care of Roma by default as an overseas remnant population (likewise for the Rumanians).

I believe this is also why Lubomyr Husar was made a bishop by Major Metropolitan Slipyj without the prior knowledge or approval of the Vatican. His consecration was 'valid, but not licit' in Latin terms. With the Moscow Patriarchate (due to Soviet actions) swallowing up the church in Europe and Roma swallowing up the diaspora the Ukrainian underground hierarchy needed to meet both challenges.

The Ruthenians have ever been directly subject to Roma in all places (even in the homelands of Europe), so this ruling has not been a change for them.

+T+
Michael

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Patriarchates like any diocese or province have clear boundaries. The Pope is the Metropolitan for a number of diocese both Latin and non Latin all over the world. There is no surprise here, this has been the way for a very long time. The bishops of those diocese or exarchates are still linked into the senior hierarchs or other hierarchs of their particular church. It works well and so far there are no problems.

Cardinal Husar's secret ordination to the episcopate would have to have been the worst kept secret in all of Italy.

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Hello Pavel!
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Originally posted by Pavel Ivanovich:
Patriarchates like any diocese or province have clear boundaries.
All except the Latin Patriarchate, it seems. smile
Quote
Originally posted by Pavel Ivanovich:
The Pope is the Metropolitan for a number of diocese both Latin and non Latin all over the world. There is no surprise here, this has been the way for a very long time.
Yes, but not so from the beginning! wink
Quote
Originally posted by Pavel Ivanovich:
Cardinal Husar's secret ordination to the episcopate would have to have been the worst kept secret in all of Italy.
Secret? no. Ilicit? Why Yes.

The consecration in Roma of Lubomyr Husar to the espicopate was a direct act of disobedience on the part of Cardinal Slipyj and father Husar, would you agree?

If so, it would be difficult to see the difference between that act and that of the notorious Archbishop LeFebvre two decades later.

In Christ always,
Michael

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Originally posted by Hesychios:
Hello Pavel!
Quote
Originally posted by Pavel Ivanovich:
[b] Patriarchates like any diocese or province have clear boundaries.
All except the Latin Patriarchate, it seems. smile Michael [/b]
Of course it has! The planet Earth! :p


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