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To Aklie & whom it may concern:

One must relize the good in everything, if there is good to be found of course. And perhaps even the opposite extent of that.

I had raised the issue briefly of my brief experience in "community" in the Buddhism & Christianity thread. Feeling bound to honor my fellow brothers and the community it's self for the positives it imparted on me, and for the struggles we share, and for just existing there for us, I feel the responsiblity to highlight some of the more *easily* seen good attributes of "community". Which I will attempt to do in brevity.

One may wonder why I do not publicly give the fuller name of "community"? This is basicly two part. 1) I wish to avoid the wrath of it's members. And as long as I'm vague, I presume their "charity" will not extend so far my direction. 2) For all my disagreement with certain things, and dislike for certain things, I hold a deep affection for community and it's brothers and sisters and wish not to harm it's identity.

I hope by my highlighting of some of the great aspects of community, Catholic readers will gain a greater pride in their Catholicism. Also I hope the readers on this board will be able to make a more fair ballanced assesment of a Catholic "community" I have been describing from the Buddhism & Christianity thread.

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"Community can't be told only experienced"

These are the common words, and true words, often expressed by seasoned members of "community". In this way community shares something in common with war. Neither can be given their justice in words both must be experienced to fully be appreciated.

Good secular people, have to my understanding, three main philosophical discernments of life - if this is what it can be called. They would seem to often group people into three institutional phases of life: a) religious; b) law abiding secular; and c) those outside of the law - best expressed in prison.

A Catholic person, who more then likely will be canonized a saint one day, has developed a fourth phase of life (if you want to call it that). "Community". Their are no pre maddonas in community, they come from the best backgrounds of life i.e. PHD's, and upper mobiles. But more often then not they come from the worst societies of life i.e. bank robbers, prison gang members, combat veterens, street thugs, prostitutes.

All men live together, the rare sight of a woman, is rare thrill. The order of the place verges on par excellence. The leadership positions in community is not given by way of age, but by way of time in community, and what is considered "good living". It is not uncommon for early or mid twenty somethings to be running the entire show. And even for those 20's that aren't at the top of the food chain, but have been in community for a number of years. Their level of maturity is approximately at the age of early to mid thirties. In my assesment 20 something year old community members far outpace US military personal of the same age, in maturity. Leadership in community is often not without humility. Unlike traits to be found in military or professional civilian life. Though a certain arrogance of God-given rightness tends to accompany goal setting attitudes i.e. make another suffer without exception to shape him into what you want him to be.

Unlike military or civilan life where one can just do what he/she is supposed to and not worry about being made to suffer. This does not exist in community. As my mentor in community explained to me - in his words: "community is suffering Christs humiliation on the cross." One does not need to "break rules or custom" in community to suffer and be tested. One only need be in community.

Now there are many things of community which verge on the status of cult. Which I will not even dare to mention less the reader logicaly determine the institution to be a cult.

But even cults can have their good. And community has many of them (goods). Tai Chi was mentioned on the other thread and monastic prayer exercise, regarding physical exercise. Community believes heavily in men being athletic (not so much so for women) so sports are required. And the competetive level is no less then any amature secular group of men out playing whatever sport on a weekend. Infact it is probably higher. A good amount of aggression is displayed and competetive will to win. You play even if your injured, unless your to injured to play. But in community pissing blood does not equal to injured to play, at least not in self disciplin terms - as one of the two 20 something year old guys that ran the place would play soccer, stopping so often to go piss out the blood in his blatter. The other 20 something leader played with a hole carved out of his leg from a resulted bite of a poisones spider. Both studs played to win without exception.

For a few weeks, from the often played sports that thrashed my body, I would wake in the middle of the night from the pain shooting my legs never to be able to go back to sleep. Only to rise and go do physical work in the garden that often required digging and wheel barrows. Then to play sports again (often soccer) at the end of the day.
From the basketball court I got my eyebrow busted open, heads colliding attempting to recover an escaped basketball, same team members mind you smile but both of tried to get to the ball first. Even though my busted eye required seven stiches, I got the better of the deal, which I attributed my busted eye to the Virgin Mary, because I got a hospital visit that on the way resulted in the meeting an observation of a well shaped and busty Peruvian woman. Oooe la la.

The responsibiltiy layed on the shoulders of both the two young leaders of community, and their rise to that task, is on level with that of an E-4 in the US Marine Corps. E-4's in the Marine Corps are often tasked with a greater amount of responsibility then that of the other sister services. So E-4 Army, Air Force, Navy, Coast Guard would not fit into this equation. No civilian sector job, outside of one running his/her own buisness, can land on the same playing field as this. Except a number of positions in the civilian sector, but those are positions held most often if not always, by persons of the minimume age of mid to late forties. Although the E-4 Marine (often in his twenties himself) in my assesment is on the level playing field of responsibilty as that of the community leader(s). I would have to say that in all honesty the community leaders rise ahead in maturity aspect, and health of mind, when it comes to stress level of leadership. The only way I personal appreciate Marine E-4 leadership over that of community is the Marine E-4 willingnes to back up every attitude with his fists. Other then that the E-4 Marine lacks in many ways to that of the community leader, in my opinion.

I have confidence that if the two young 20 something year old studs, I had the pleasure of being lead under, where tasked with the responsiblity of supervising the construction of a civilain bridge two miles in length, and the construction of track houses two miles away from the bridge site. They could both single handedly supervise both at the same time. Given the right resources and people.

There is also a great amount of forgiveness done in community amongst the brothers (I'll assume of course the sisters). Your average Catholic on the street would never forgive another person for threating to end their life. In community such things brothers forgave one another for. Life goes on. There was uncharitable things I didn't like, but that's not what I was to talk about in this thread.

Learning to look at a woman and notice her beauty without connecting that with bedding her, is highly stressed. For most men though this does not come over night to truely develope.

+++

Hope my post can offer a little Catholic pride to the Catholic. And be a better ballance in fairness. There are things about community I personaly will continue to feel need to be reformed though. In my opinion - more Christ like. Many people were driven out, putting in great effort, because of certain ways of the community which I personaly feel are far less then Christ like. Most of this didn't have so much to do with me, as my objection to the treatment of others. But I feel that all of the guys I came to know are great persons. And they have my deepest respect and loyalty.

Justin

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I thought that maybe I should clarify my thought, when I placed 'combat veterens' in the category of "worst societies". Amongst prison gang members and prostitutes etc.

My intent is not to insult combat veterens of any calibur. Personally I feel and recognize such persons in a rather high and favorable light. But my personal feeling was not what I wanted to capture. While in cultures such as mainstream America, combat soldiers, sailors, and airmen are recognized and saluted more often then not as people of ideal heroism and machoism. Combat veterens of every bush, sand, and bullet britteled city of the globe can't be said - I don't think - to recieve such favorable regard. Especially the more troubled from out of these conflicts. Eastern European civil wars come to mind, and infact are more so the combat veterens I refered to. Conflicts such as these can leave a many of their veterens troubled, some of whom have driven a round into the chest of a former highschool friend. In which case their troubles can leave them outside the favorability of mainstream society. This so can often be the case of even US combat vet.

I meant too to capture the appeal of combat vets being viewed more along the lines of blue blood machoism then virtue - similar to prison gang members. This is not to say I say they lack virtue. Rather I attempt to capture the sentiment of *wholesome* mainstream society.

In Best Regards,

Justin

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In the Name of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit. One God, Amen.

Justin,

What a rich and spiritual Catholic tradition!

I envy you guys, I wish that our Church could even dream about a semi-monastic group of 20-something year olds running the show.

You summed up the guiding principles succinctly:

One does not need to "break rules or custom" in community to suffer and be tested. One only need be in community.

It seems that the community is simply stressing some of the basic and most cherished Christian principles: humbleness, meekness, longsuffering, and devotion. Many of us say these things nowadays and give them lip service, but the Apostles lived and breathed them, and so do Monks and Nuns. Our Church has always considered Monasteries as the conscious of Christianity. Our Monasteries let you know from the beginning that you are to be subservient to the elders and that you are a slave to Christ in all senses of the term. That is hard for our modernized brains to accept with all of its infatuation with "independence' and "individuality', but that is the way of the Apostles.

Look at the way St. Paul submitted to the Jerusalem synod's decision that he should confine himself to the Temple for 7 days, just to demonstrate for all that some rumors of him not being steadfast in Jewish Tradition had no substance. He did not question the decision, argue for his innocence or anything, he just simply submitted (and when you read the book of Acts, you can see that he was not guilty of anything; but he still submitted).

It is for that reason that I suggest you should not be so bitter about some of your more negative experiences in community. If it is not too late, I would suggest you give it another shot.

So to sum up, you have a rich Apostolic Tradition to draw from; your interest in Buddhism should not distract you from that.

The Ethiopian Priest would have quoted to you the traditional proverb: Beidj Yeyazut Work Kemedeab Yikoteral (treating the gold on your hand as if it were copper). What it means is that you yourself are wearing a gold ring, you are wearing something precious. It is yours; but because it is yours you do not appreciate it. You treat it like it is mere copper and not gold. You are busy looking at everyone else's gold rings and neck chains while you failed to notice and appreciate your own, you treated as if it were copper.

God Bless


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Aklie,

Yes there are many good, and dare I say astonishing things, about community.

You mention about me going back. Actually I have long missed the place. I feel in many ways like I quit on some friendships. I know there were/are a number of people that felt bad about me leaving - or community would refer to it as "esacape."

I'm more bitter at, well let me put it this way, the link Don put up in the Opus Dei thread, most everything in that article - minus the cash - sounded like the community I know. I was struck by how little God/Christ was mentioned in a Catholic setting (out side of our routine prayer that is). Even trust was never compelled to be given to God, but rather "community." I still offer prayers for the community and founder and second to the founder.

Actually your explination of what the community is stressing is probably quite good an explination, and far superior to any explination I would have recieved in community. I would have just been taken to task that I ask to many questions, and I am just to do, just be obedient. As had happened already. Obedience is fine but that in it's self does not satisify ones spiritual hunger. And this is where I find the superiority in Buddhism. It actually mentors one into a self mastering contemplative life. Where as Catholicism would just be more concerned with everyone "falling in" line - like the military falling in formation - and being a team player. Be obedient.

But I have to admit, the community turns out some rather disciplined machines, selfless individuals. From cutting grass with a pair of scissors to single handedly making a level trail to walk on in the swamp, by wheel barrowing dirt and buildng up the ground level over the water - the community could teach Marine DI's a thing or two. Though of course even some people that have stayed in community for years have went back on the outside, and fell back into their same troubles they came in with, most to my knowledge are reborn hard.

I do miss all of the people and many of the things about community - even some of the more painful aspects. But somethings about the place kill my soul, as if it isn't already killed already. But certain cultural aspects of community seem to dig it back up and then stab it to death again. Like the continual every day complaining - that has nothing personaly to do with me - about how the perfect smooth running day wasn't perfect and smooth running enough because this and this could have been done better. I never heard so much complaining in all my four years of the Corps, and many times things ran as less smooth.

Justin


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