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Q? #85138
06/03/02 04:38 PM
06/03/02 04:38 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 268
Chatham, ON Canada
Gideon Offline OP
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Gideon  Offline OP
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 268
Chatham, ON Canada
For sanity and salvation I am seriously contemplating converting to the Orthodox faith, however my wife is a firm believer in the Baptist tradition and will not convert. So I ask is their salvation outside the Orthodox faith and is this common among new converts? (for only one person in a marriage to convert)

PS. Is it common for people to talk and walk up to light candles in front of the Holy Icons during the Liturgy?

[ 06-03-2002: Message edited by: Odo ]


Abba Isidore the Priest:
When I was younger and remained in my cell I set no limit to prayer; the night was for me as much the time of prayer as the day.
(p. 97, Isidore 4)
Re: Q? #85139
06/03/02 07:09 PM
06/03/02 07:09 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 291
North America
O
OrthodoxyOrDeath Offline
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OrthodoxyOrDeath  Offline
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O

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 291
North America
Odo,

I am a guest here myself and do not represent the pervasive views of it's other members.

And to be fair, I will say they consider me a schismatic and who knows what else.

But, since I seem to be the only renegade, I will offer to go out on the limb where noone dares to go and of those that have, few have survived. smile

It is true that there is no salvation without the baptism of the Church. That does not mean one is condemned to the Western notion of "Hell and eternal torment", but one could certainly not inheret the "Kingdom" (Vasilios, meaning the "uncreated Light") of God.

There is also no marriage outside the Church, so in the eyes of the Orthodox Church, you are not married and could not be married unless you were both Orthodox.

The departure I will have with the hosts of this board is what constitutes the Orthodox Church? Since I am just a guest, I will leave the rest to them...

But before I go, might I recommend a very nice website for more information...

www.fatheralexander.org

----------------------------

ps. It is very common for people to walk up and lite candles and venerate (kiss) the icons during the service.

For instance, just before Holy Communion, one Venerates the icons just before because one should not kiss anything after.

[ 06-03-2002: Message edited by: OrthodoxyOrDeath ]

Re: Q? #85140
06/03/02 07:34 PM
06/03/02 07:34 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,042
Washington, DC
DavidB, the Byzantine Catholic Offline
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DavidB, the Byzantine Catholic  Offline
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Posts: 1,042
Washington, DC
Odo asked

Quote
So I ask is their salvation outside the Orthodox faith and is this common among new converts?


OOD answered

Quote
It is true that there is no salvation without the baptism of the Church. That does not mean one is condemned to the Western notion of "Hell and eternal torment", but one could certainly not inheret the "Kingdom" (Vasilios, meaning the "uncreated Light") of God.


Now my comment.

My answer would be that we do not know.

As for OOD's answer, I would like to request that he shows some evidence for this third place, that is Heaven, Hell, and now someplace else for those not baptized.

Or did I misunderstand what you said? confused


Your brother in Christ,
David

[ 06-03-2002: Message edited by: DavidB ]

Re: Q? #85141
06/03/02 08:02 PM
06/03/02 08:02 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 291
North America
O
OrthodoxyOrDeath Offline
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OrthodoxyOrDeath  Offline
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O

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 291
North America
DavidB,

The typical understanding of Heaven and Hell is a Western idea and has never been Orthodox.

Now, given my history on this subject I would offer a link to the "River of Fire" by Alexandre Kalomiros who put't it together rather nice, but this is much shorter...

http://www.oca.org/pages/orth_chri/Orthodox-Faith/Spirituality/Heaven-and-Hell.html

Re: Q? #85142
06/04/02 12:39 PM
06/04/02 12:39 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,172
Canada
Orthodox Catholic Offline
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Orthodox Catholic  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,172
Canada
Dear OOD,

Excellent exposition!

Pervasive views of the members here? Are there such things? smile

Alex

Re: Q? #85143
06/04/02 02:47 PM
06/04/02 02:47 PM
Joined: Oct 1998
Posts: 324
Frostbite Falls, Minnesota, US...
M
Moose Offline
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Moose  Offline
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M

Joined: Oct 1998
Posts: 324
Frostbite Falls, Minnesota, US...
The link provided by OoD gives and explanation that is very similar to what I learned as a kid. It is very Eastern but also very Russian. It would be wonderful if someone could take the time to examine the various Eastern Christian presentations of heaven and hell and the influences on each. The Russian approach is very much influenced by Dostoevsky and others (in that it is almost poetical or romantic). The Greeks seem to approach this topic from a more philosophical perspective.

Re: Q? #85144
06/04/02 05:02 PM
06/04/02 05:02 PM
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 78
Massachusetts
Christopher De Milo Offline
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Christopher De Milo  Offline
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Posts: 78
Massachusetts
Glory to Jesus Christ!

Dear Odo,

I personally know two couples where one spouse became Eastern Orthodox before another. I know one couple where they became Eastern Orthodox together. Interestingly enough, all three couples exited the Presbyterian Church.

I have read about other cases (regarding confirmation in the Eastern Orthodox or Roman Catholic churches). In particular, The Boston Globe ran an article a month ago about a husband following his wife into Roman Catholicism - a decade or so after they married!

Re: Q? #85145
06/04/02 07:26 PM
06/04/02 07:26 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 268
Chatham, ON Canada
Gideon Offline OP
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Gideon  Offline OP
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 268
Chatham, ON Canada
Why does the ROCOR hold to such a different view then the majority of the other Orthodox Churches? They seem less “catholic” in their thought, then say the Greek Orthodox Church. If I was to become Orthodox, would I be considered as “living in sin”? What is it that makes the Orthodox Church more universal then the Latin Church? Is it not God that gave us the Holy Church and is it not God alone that makes judgment against us? I understand that we are to “expel the immoral brother” but at the same time we must not over step the authority that Christ gave to his Church. (I’m probably far off but then again I’m still learning) Yours (struggling to understand) in the Faith,

odo


Abba Isidore the Priest:
When I was younger and remained in my cell I set no limit to prayer; the night was for me as much the time of prayer as the day.
(p. 97, Isidore 4)
Re: Q? #85146
06/04/02 08:00 PM
06/04/02 08:00 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,172
Canada
Orthodox Catholic Offline
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Orthodox Catholic  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,172
Canada
Dear Odo,

ROCOR considers itself not in communion with "World Orthodoxy" for all intents and purposes.

I would recommend you become an Eastern Catholic. You'll have all the richness of Eastern theology and spirituality with none of the problems of jurisdictionalism . . .

Oh darn, I wasn't supposed to let my partisan bias show . . . sorry, sorry . . . smile

Alex

Re: Q? #85147
06/04/02 08:43 PM
06/04/02 08:43 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 268
Chatham, ON Canada
Gideon Offline OP
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Gideon  Offline OP
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 268
Chatham, ON Canada
Orthodox vs. Eastern Catholic what is the difference? I like the Greek Orthodox Church in Canada what do you all think?

Odo eek


Abba Isidore the Priest:
When I was younger and remained in my cell I set no limit to prayer; the night was for me as much the time of prayer as the day.
(p. 97, Isidore 4)
Re: Q? #85148
06/05/02 06:02 AM
06/05/02 06:02 AM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 10,930
Irondale,AL
Pani Rose Offline
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Pani Rose  Offline
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Posts: 10,930
Irondale,AL
Well, I don't know about the Greek Orthodox in Canada. However, I do know about being a Baptist. When my husband, who was raised PNC and I prayed for the place God wanted us to be, where we would both be a peace(he didn't want Baptist and I didn't want Roman Catholic), God gave very clear directions through a series of events. We ended up in the Ruthenian Church. Never looked back and have loved every minute of serving the Lord in it. God knew where he wanted us to be and once we were willing to ask him to make it clear to us, he did.

Rose smile

Re: Q? #85149
06/05/02 12:59 PM
06/05/02 12:59 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,172
Canada
Orthodox Catholic Offline
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Orthodox Catholic  Offline
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Posts: 26,172
Canada
Dear Odo,

I just love the Orthodox to death! smile

But if you don't think there is a difference between the Orthodox and Eastern Catholics, then I would say you are already of the Eastern Catholic point of view. smile

(Right, Brendan? smile )

Alex

Re: Q? #85150
06/05/02 02:02 PM
06/05/02 02:02 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 291
North America
O
OrthodoxyOrDeath Offline
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O

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 291
North America
Odo,

You asked for opinion...My recommendation, if it has to be a choice between the Greek Orthodox under Constantinople, and the Byzantine Catholics, I recommend the Byzantine Catholic.

Rather you be with the pope than to live you life thinking you are Orthodox. After all, at least this way you won't have organs smile

If you are serious about finding the Church, then you MUST find by frequent prayer and reading the Fathers the faith of the Apostles. Then you must find a priest and a bishop who hold that faith.

It is also very important to understand all things from both perspectives. For instance, you may find the Council of Florence was a union between the Orthodox and the Latins and that therefore the faiths must be very close if not the same. Upon further study you will find there was no union and that it was all about politics and nothing about faith, on boths sides.

How many people know that the pope and the Latin bishops were using this council to further their own authority and diminish the others? Truly, when the time for the coucil, the Latin bishops and the pope each sent a fleet to pick up the "Orthodox" delegation. Upon arrival at constantinople, both fleets nearly went to battle. All signatures were not found on the "union", and it was never accepted in any Orthodox lands.

Re: Q? #85151
06/05/02 02:13 PM
06/05/02 02:13 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,172
Canada
Orthodox Catholic Offline
Member
Orthodox Catholic  Offline
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Posts: 26,172
Canada
Dear OOD,

However, and I'm just raising an historical point, many Greek Bishops did, in fact, sign that union, leaving St Mark of Ephesus and his group of supporters in the minority at the time.

St Mark came to that Council as a unionist, with the only demand that the Latins remove the "Filioque" from the Creed.

He apparently believed that God would heal the "Latin heresy" once the Filioque was removed.

The fact that many Greek Bishops did sign that union and meant it is also illustrated in St Mark's Last Will and Testament when he ordered his supporters to prevent any Greek Bishop who signed the union from assisting at his funerary rites.

The Russian Orthodox Church at the time just assumed that the entire Greek Church had gone into heresy with Rome and that was when the "Moscow as Third Rome" view took on a life of its own.

In addition, the Byzantine Emperor St Constantine XI, glorified by the Orthodox Church, DID in face receive Communion from a Latin Cardinal before he went to defend Constantinople.

Unless the Orthodox had Cardinals, this means that St Constantine, at that time, was an Eastern Catholic.

But I commend you for encouraging our friend to become an Eastern Catholic! smile

You are wonderful!

Alex

Re: Q? #85152
06/05/02 02:24 PM
06/05/02 02:24 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 268
Chatham, ON Canada
Gideon Offline OP
Member
Gideon  Offline OP
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 268
Chatham, ON Canada
Before I jump into anything, I do need a lot more study. However, I do already prefer the Orthodox Church from my limited experience. I had never heard of the Byzantine Catholics before, I had always just lumped Orthodox with the Byzantine Catholics. I live in a small town that has only two Orthodox Churches. One is Ukrainian and the other Greek. I prefer the Greek for the simple fact that the people attending that Church are going out of their way to help me learn more about Orthodoxy. I have also been in contact with a Coptic Church and was wondering what the differences are between Orthodoxy and the Coptic brand of Orthodoxy?

Odo
cool


Abba Isidore the Priest:
When I was younger and remained in my cell I set no limit to prayer; the night was for me as much the time of prayer as the day.
(p. 97, Isidore 4)
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