The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
Irenaeus23, Al Masihi, Seavila777, MZbor, Lisa Korovainytsia
5563 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
1 registered members (1 invisible), 67 guests, and 359 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Papal Audience 10 November 2017
Upgraded Russian icon corner
Russian Greek Catholic Global Congress
OL EuroEast II (2007) Group
Portable Icon Screen
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics34,609
Posts411,057
Members5,563
Most Online2,716
Jun 7th, 2012
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 5 1 2 3 4 5
Re: Q? #85153
06/05/02 10:45 AM
06/05/02 10:45 AM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,111
Canada
Orthodox Catholic Offline
Member
Orthodox Catholic  Offline
Member

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,111
Canada
Dear Odo,

Yes, the Byzantine Catholics are the best kept secret in North America!

And certainly the fact that you do not have an Eastern Catholic Church, but Orthodox, will play a role in your decision-making in this important area.

The Coptic Church belongs to the Oriental Orthodox family of Pre-Chalcedonian Churches that went their separate ways after the Fourth Ecumenical Council on the issue of the Natures of Christ.

Other Churches in this family include the Ethiopian, Eritrean, Syriac, Indian and Armenian Churches.

These Miaphysite Churches adhere to the wording concerning the Incarnation of the Son of God as put forth by St Cyril of Alexandria, "One Incarnate Nature . . ."

The rest of the Church saw in their insistence on "One Nature" in Christ a denial of the continuing reality of Christ's Divine and Human Natures after the Incarnation.

This heresy was condemned, along with a number of their teachers and saints, Severios of Antioch, Philoxenos of Mabbugh, Timothey Aelurus, Mar Jacob Bardeana and Dioscoros of Alexandria.

The Coptic Church with its Pope and Patriarch of Alexandria is therefore not in union with Constantinople and the Eastern Orthodox Churches.

Ecumenical discussions offer great hope of an eventual reconciliation between these Churches.

Alex

Re: Q? #85154
06/05/02 11:27 AM
06/05/02 11:27 AM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 657
Philadelphia, PA
OrthoMan Offline
Member
OrthoMan  Offline
Member

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 657
Philadelphia, PA
Though it is OK to get other peoples opinions, they are just that - 'Other peoples opinions'. I suggest that you start to read. If you are at the point you claim, then it would be proper to look into the differences between Roman Catholicism and Orthodox Catholicism which are much more than some would claim in this discussion group. Since Eastern Catholicism is 'in union with' and therefore part of the Roman Catholic Church, and as such, obligated to believe in the doctrines of the RCC, it is necessary for you to understand it and compare it to what the OCC believes. I know there will be comments by some on what I just said. But they are the facts unless someone can prove to me that the RC administrative requirements for those 'in union with' or 'in communion with' them has changed where that 'union' or 'communion' is no longer tied into an authority recognition or doctrinal belief requirement. I would start by recommending the following books which dwell on the subject I have mentioned. All which can be ordered right on-line from Light & Life Publishing which is the largest Orthodox publishing supplier in the world -

http://www.light-n-life.com/

Books I recommend -


Against False Union

by A. Kalomiros

$ 12.95

Softbound

Item No: AGAI100

Humble thoughts of an Orthodox Christian concerning the attempts for union with the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church with the Churches of the West. Prologue by Photios Kontoglou.

----------------


Two Paths: Papal Monarchy-Collegial Tradition

by Michael Whelton

$ 22.95

Softbound

Item No: TWOP050

A brilliantly written book that explains compassionately, simply and factually the historic, theological and liturgical differences between the Orthodox and Roman Catholic traditions.
Includes Peter and the Papacy, Collegial Tradition, Filioque and Schism, Donation of Constantine; Infallibility; the New Mass of Vatican II versus the Orthodox Liturgy and much more. 220 pages.

------------

[AND MY PERSONAL FAVORITE WHICH I HIGHLY RECOMMEND TO ANYONE. WELL WORTH THE SMALL PRICE.]

Dance, O Isaiah: Questions and Answers on Some of the Differences Between
Eastern Orthodox and Other Faiths

by Constantine Platis

$ 11.75

Softbound

Item No: DANC275

Each page is separated into two columns: one column states the Protestant or Roman Catholic question and the second column provides the Orthodox Christian answer. Example: Why do you honor saints' relics? is followed by the Orthodox answer. Hundreds of questions with insightful answers. 160 pages.

Re: Q? #85155
06/05/02 11:39 AM
06/05/02 11:39 AM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,111
Canada
Orthodox Catholic Offline
Member
Orthodox Catholic  Offline
Member

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,111
Canada
Dear Orthoman,

No one is going to contradict you on the administrative thing you raised with respect to "union with Rome" my Friend!

As for the doctrinal matters, we will agree to disagree here, (as we often have in the past, but I am happy that despite that you still find something that is loveable in me!!) smile .

St John of Damascus teaches in his Orthodox Faith that the Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son.

The RC Church accepts this, as did St Thomas Aquinas, and so we need not change or add anything to Eastern Triadology here.

The Epiclesis issue is dead, as Orthodox theologians have said, since the West now includes an Epiclesis in its liturgies.

The total holiness of the Mother of God and her being taken up into heaven have ALWAYS been a part of the liturgical tradition of Orthodoxy, and Orthodox theologians today don't see a problem with RCism here, except on the matter of Original Sin a la St Augustine.

But the new Roman Catechism and theologians say that this view of Original Sin isn't necessary for Catholics to hold and never was since it was never declared official doctrine.

Both RC's and OC's agree on prayer for the dead. "Purgatory" was never declared official doctrine and the Eastern practice in this regard is much more developed and spiritually enriching than that of the West anyway.

The only real difference here has to do with two out of three papal doctrines, the East having no problem with the "Primacy of Honour" for the Pope of Rome.

And John Meyendorff (+memory eternal!) wrote that even these papal doctrines, infallibity and jurisdiction, could foreseeably be accepted by Orthodoxy through a 're-presentation' before a union Ecumenical Council in future.

I accept these doctrines in anticipation of just such a Council smile . (Have I gotten your goat yet? smile )

And you say that the perspectives presented in books are "objective fact" and have nothing to do with subjective opinion?

It depends on the author, I think, and whether or not we like what he or she has to say . . .

Have a great day,

Your humble and sometimes annoying servant,

Alex

Re: Q? #85156
06/05/02 12:33 PM
06/05/02 12:33 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 657
Philadelphia, PA
OrthoMan Offline
Member
OrthoMan  Offline
Member

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 657
Philadelphia, PA
Alex:

You are right. We will have to agree to disagree on his.

However, you bring up some good points that I would be interested in getting other Orthodox opinions on. Would you have any problem if I posted portions of your post on some of the Orthodox discussion groups I belong to? I think they would make good subject matter.

I would even be more than willing to forward any replies to you if you are willing to provide me with one.

OrthoMan

[ 06-05-2002: Message edited by: OrthoMan ]

Re: Q? #85157
06/05/02 12:38 PM
06/05/02 12:38 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 291
North America
O
OrthodoxyOrDeath Offline
Member
OrthodoxyOrDeath  Offline
Member
O

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 291
North America
Allow me to save Odo $12.95 (US)...

Against False Union

Re: Q? #85158
06/05/02 01:18 PM
06/05/02 01:18 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,111
Canada
Orthodox Catholic Offline
Member
Orthodox Catholic  Offline
Member

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,111
Canada
Dear Orthoman,

No problem, Big Guy, it's just I'll be out of commission for the next little while due to a leg injury that needs to be looked after before I am given a monk's staff to use permanently.

I'm not going to argue the Papal doctrines since the differences are clear cut and one either accepts them as they are or not, even with a dose of "Byzantinization" (i.e. collegiality and those other points Lance goes on about smile - isn't Lance loveable too? )

The other points of doctrine can be argued, fruitfully and responsibly I believe, about how closely they approximate each other or not.

Ultimately, one can always find a theologian, either contemporary or historical, on either side who could "prove" this or that.

And if we don't agree with him, then we always have the option to anathematize him. smile

Isn't theological discussion fun?

How's about you invite those people to join the Byzantine Forum and participate in the discussion directly as well, mano a mano? smile

And there is the matter of cross posting which we know you'll be careful about!

But do please let your friends know where this post came from, "Orthodox Catholic on the Byzantine Forum." You can use "Alex" but I prefer "Orthodox Catholic" smile .

Pray for me, Orthoman!

If something happens to my other knee, I really won't have a leg to stand on!

Alex

[ 06-05-2002: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

Re: Q? #85159
06/05/02 01:23 PM
06/05/02 01:23 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,111
Canada
Orthodox Catholic Offline
Member
Orthodox Catholic  Offline
Member

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,111
Canada
Dear OOD,

A wonderful book - I paid full price for it way back then!

But this is a discussion about SOME of the historic theological points that have divided East and West, a comparison, a civil one-on-one.

If we can't speak nicely to one another in ways other than, "Here's the Truth, you better accept it or else," then life would be boring indeed.

How are you doing today, Zealous One?

Alex

Re: Q? #85160
06/05/02 01:55 PM
06/05/02 01:55 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 291
North America
O
OrthodoxyOrDeath Offline
Member
OrthodoxyOrDeath  Offline
Member
O

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 291
North America
Alex,

I hope I am doing well; thank you for asking. Since people stop having children at the latest 40, and you knew I had a, well, now almost a one year old, I figured you would have to be at least 50 yourself to say "I was young". But I never figured a cain, grampa. smile

Quote
Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
Ultimately, one can always find a theologian, either contemporary or historical, on either side who could "prove" this or that.


Quite right, quite right.

Even the Mormons have their theologians so how much easier is it to deceive people the closer you get to the truth?

And I hope the leg injury is not to serious?

[ 06-05-2002: Message edited by: OrthodoxyOrDeath ]

Re: Q? #85161
06/05/02 01:59 PM
06/05/02 01:59 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,111
Canada
Orthodox Catholic Offline
Member
Orthodox Catholic  Offline
Member

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,111
Canada
Dear OOD,

Very easy, my Friend, very easy, I am afraid . . .
to deceive and to hurt one's leg, that is smile

Happily, not at the same time!

God bless,

Alex

[ 06-05-2002: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

Re: Q? #85162
06/05/02 02:24 PM
06/05/02 02:24 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,658
Mexico, Iasi
Mexican Offline
Member
Mexican  Offline
Member

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,658
Mexico, Iasi

Re: Q? #85163
06/05/02 02:37 PM
06/05/02 02:37 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,111
Canada
Orthodox Catholic Offline
Member
Orthodox Catholic  Offline
Member

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,111
Canada
Dear Remie,

I don't think OrthodoxyorDeath considers the OCA to be a harbinger of truth to begin with . . .

Alex

Re: Q? #85164
06/05/02 03:57 PM
06/05/02 03:57 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 657
Philadelphia, PA
OrthoMan Offline
Member
OrthoMan  Offline
Member

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 657
Philadelphia, PA
[How's about you invite those people to join the Byzantine Forum and participate in the discussion directly as well, mano a mano?]

I have done that on many occassions including this one. For being a non Byzantine Catholic, I'm probably one of the best promoter of this Forum. Its one of the best and I make no bones about it here or anywhere else.

[And there is the matter of cross posting which we know you'll be careful about!]

Thats why I mentioned portions of your post.

[But do please let your friends know where this post came from, "Orthodox Catholic on the Byzantine Forum." You can use "Alex" but I prefer "Orthodox Catholic".]

All complied with my Ukie friend. If you want a copy of what I posted send me an email address and I forward it to you.

And, no you haven't gotten on my goat. Points you bring up or interesting but stretched to comply with you point of view.

I myself, will have to do some research to reply.

OrthoMan

Got to get ready for tonights Akfist and Bible study...Bye

Re: Q? #85165
06/05/02 04:01 PM
06/05/02 04:01 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 657
Philadelphia, PA
OrthoMan Offline
Member
OrthoMan  Offline
Member

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 657
Philadelphia, PA
[I don't think OrthodoxyorDeath considers the OCA to be a harbinger of truth to begin with . . .]

By the way, Orthodoxy or Death, would you mind sharing your jurisdictional identity with us?

OrthoMan

Re: Q? #85166
06/05/02 04:01 PM
06/05/02 04:01 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 291
North America
O
OrthodoxyOrDeath Offline
Member
OrthodoxyOrDeath  Offline
Member
O

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 291
North America
Remie,

For most people today, marriage is the result of a pragmatic social consideration whos bonds are disposable when it ceases to meet one's needs.

These are the very people who would enter into the Church to recieve Her Mysteries without accepting the faith or having any kind of communion with Her.

How can a person such as this be Mysteriously united into one flesh by God?

How could it be expected that this person would help raise the children in an Orthodox way?

What kind of an example would this person be for the children and other members of the Church?

When the honeymoon is over, a situation like this could easily develop into a devisive force and be perceived as a threat. Better for that person to have explored his soul and decided to be a part of the Church or not prior to a marriage.

But besides all of these comments, it is as simple as: One cannot partake in the Mysteries of the Church unless that person is in communion with Her.

That would be the worst kind of hypocrasy.

Re: Q? #85167
06/05/02 04:06 PM
06/05/02 04:06 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,111
Canada
Orthodox Catholic Offline
Member
Orthodox Catholic  Offline
Member

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,111
Canada
Dear Orthoman,

You really are wonderful . . .

Except when you say I stretch things to comply with my point of view.

I believe my point of view is that the Church of Christ.

Of course, there are certain subjective issues that I wind into my presentation.

But that's why God created me - and all of us, to bring our respective personalities to bear on these things.

Life wouldn't be exciting otherwise.

Faith would be reduced to answering all questions with our index fingers to point to books, articles and blackboards.

I do, humbly, take offense at your suggestion that I've stretched things to comply with my point of view.

If you are already convinced you have the truth and if your sole point in conversing is to show that to me no matter what else comes your way, why have a discussion?

My Akathist will be for your intensions, my Friend!

Alex

[ 06-05-2002: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

Page 2 of 5 1 2 3 4 5

Moderated by  Alice, Father Deacon Ed, theophan 

The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2018. All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.2
(Release build 20180918)
Page Time: 0.020s Queries: 14 (0.007s) Memory: 2.0736 MB (Peak: 2.2950 MB) Zlib enabled. Server Time: 2018-12-11 16:01:49 UTC