Why is it SOOOOO hard to become Catholic. I found trying to become a Roman Catholic hard, but Become a Byzantine seems like an Elite statues only some times.

The RC RCIA teachers said i have to learn more about the faith. I could teach Them RCIA, half of them dont know what the eastern rites are. shhs.

Ive been waiting 3yrs to becoming catholic but it seems it keeps evading me for some reason.

From: Daniel Harrison
In The Theotokos

Right now im attending St. Nicholas Byzantine Catholic Church. Im attending Adult Catechetical Classes. But the classes dont lead up to Chrisimation. Priest said take that 1st and keep coming to divine liturgy. How did you guys become
byzantine catholic if you were raise a Roman/Byzantine Catholic?

From: Daniel H.
In the Theotokos

I dunno why everything is so complicated now, that's nothing but burocracy.

In the RC in Mexico for example, it's the same, if people want to baptize their children the parents must go to "talks" and "classes" and thanks to this people wait months for their babies to get baptized, (the apostolic tradition about the urgence of the baptism, is a dead letter). If people want to get married it is the same: talks, talks and talks.

And the talks are given by "psichologists", "lay pastors", etc... and not priests! It is ridiculous.

In the Byzantine jurisdictions there, people from the latin rite can attend the Liturgy and receive communion without trouble, but they cannot baptize or confirm their children there.
I've seen people who after being in the Melkite Church, have to become Orthodox (because they are sent back to the RC).

In the Orthodox Church, it seems that chrismation has become the rule, no matter if people were previously chrismated in the Latin Rite, they are being re-chrismated. I am not sure if this represents another departure from the Apostolic Tradition in both Churches.

Daniel,

The standard practice for one to enter the Roman Catholic Church is during the Easter Vigil after months of weekly catechesis (RCIA). It's not that different to enter the Byzantine Catholic Churches, except that the Vigil of Theophany is also a time for reception into the Church for adults. Although there is no formal RCIA program, the pastor normally conducts the inquiry and catechetical classes for converts. If you have not been yet received Trinitarian baptism, then you would receive all three sacraments (Mysteries) of initiation. I imagine Fr Joe wants you to be sure that the Byzantine Catholic Church will be a spiritual home for you.

I formally became a member of the Ruthenian Catholic Church by way of the so-called "change of rite" after about three years of attending St Stephen's in Phoenix. I became member of the parish after attending about three months. I was a cradle Roman Catholic. There certainly is no need to rush, you have to be sure you can make this your spiritual home.

John

The catechesis is worthless in most parish RCIA classes. :p

True About RCIA! Odo.

I want to become a Byzantine Catholic Capuchin Franciscan thats why im getting impatient. ive been waiting 3yrs to become catholic and 2yrs to become a Byzantine Catholic! thats why im getting jumpy.

But i do understand john, thanks for the explination!

I think this is where the Catholic Church has a
severe problem with too much bureaucracy. Take the case of an Orthodox who wishes to become ROMAN Catholic. Why is a Papal indult needed? Why is Rite treated as something sacred that can only be changed once in a man's life? And I thought Vatican II was supposed to decentralize the Church.

I don't have my copy with me, but I have a real interesting book about the documents of V2, with commentary-the section on the Eastern Churches is very legalistic, with all sorts of footnotes about what is licit and what's not when Orthodox wish to become Roman, or when Catholic/Orthodox
intermarriages happen. Its all ridiclulous, and seems to neglect "where the bishop is there is the Catholic Church"-why these matters should be handled by Rome is a mystery to me.

From my experience, RCIA is mainly for people who know practically nothing about Catholicism, and is worthless for just about everyone else. I guess I should also give the usual caveat about over-zealous converts, (like what that OCA priest back east said in that infamous article in the New England diocesean newspaper) but as I said before, there is too much bureaucracy and micro-management.

That was a wonderful article by Father John Garvey of the OCA Albanian Diocese called "A Typology of Converts: Beware of Those who are Running Away"

http://www.oca.org/pages/ocaadmin/dioceses/NY/Jacobs-Well/Articles/1996-FALL-Garvey.html

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Some would say that your troubles in joining the Catholic Church is God's way of telling you that He wants you to be Orthodox. But I'm not going to say that. No Siree! God Bless!

Daniel,

Maybe you need to meet with your pastor and ask him for the specific requirements for your education and profession before he can receive you into the Byzantine Catholic Church?

I know that most pastors would want to give you time to discern God's call and would want to make sure you are properly prepared. This is doubly important since you are saying that you wish to be a Byzantine Catholic and then become a Capuchin Franciscan, which is a Roman Catholic order. Your pastor might be confused at your plan since, as a Capuchin, you will be living the Roman Catholic and not Byzantine Catholic monastic life. Three years of study is a long time and certainly much longer than normal. You should ask for an explanation and direction.

I outright reject Nik's suggestion that your challenges are God's way of telling you to become Orthodox. I understand that he is currently on his own spiritual journey and wish him well and offer him my prayers. In the past weeks or months he has gone from being the webmaster of a fine, staunchly Catholic website that was "magisterium loyal" to rejecting Catholicism and the Byzantine-Ukrainian Catholic Church in favor of Russian Orthodoxy (the religious affiliation he now lists in his profile on this website).

Again, Daniel, I highly recommend that you meet with your pastor so that you can fully understand what he is expecting of you. If you do not have a spiritual father, please ask him to help you find one.

Admin

Yes, I agree that being a member of a Roman Catholic order and being Byzantine Catholic can be confusing. We have an Augustinian who helps out at our parish. He was ordained in the Byzantine Rite. I don't know how he does it.

By the way, there is a Capuchin from the Polish Provence who helps out at the Ukranian Catholic Cathedral in Philadelphia. So I guess its not that strange.

NIK!, Nice TRY! Brian there is made many attempts
of Converting me to Orthodoxy but to no avail, haha brian. even though i thought about it, i couldnt imagine leaving the Papacy, im to dedicated to the Holy Father of Rome. Sorry.

Thanks Admin. About the Byzantine Catholic/Capuchin Franciscan thing.
My Byzantine Vocations director said it is possiable and also did my RC Capuchin Vocations
Director. the O.F.M. Cap, Vocations director has told me he has 5-6 Melkite Priest/Brothers, in the
RC Capcuhins. My Capuchin Vocations director said that you would be ordained as a Byzantine Catholic Priest and celebrate the Divine Liturgy every sunday, but he also said in order to be a Byzantine Catholic Priest, in the Roman Catholic Capuchins, the order would make you become Bi-Ritual in both the Byzantine/Roman Liturgies.

Currently im going through a Catechism class, about the History/Theology of the Byzantine Catholic Churchs. Were using the book "To the Ends of the Earth: Aspects of the Eastern Catholic Churchs" I talked to my Pastor he said Keep Coming to Divine Liturgy and attend this class every sunday, and he and I will talk about my Conversion to the Byzantine Church.

From: Daniel H.
In The Holy + Theotokos

Yeah Right! I NEVER did that, only trying to save you from the Roman heresy! )

Good to see you on this forum, my friend!


Hey, I hope to be received as a catechumen in the OCA sooner then I thought, please pray for me!


Brian in Sacramento

Well if he has prayed and thought over this decision as i am sure he has, Good luck to him and God bless him! Maybe OUr Lord is drawing him to the Orthodox Faith?

Brian,

My point was that I think it highly irresponsible for someone in the middle of his own journey to encourage someone that he doesn't really know to join him.

One of the questions one must consider is whether one is seeking or fleeing. Those who seek usually find. Those who flee seldom find. This is why it is of great importance for someone on the journey to have a good spiritual father. Only a fool makes such a journey without help from an elder member of the community. I have seen an Orthodox priest send someone back home to the Roman Catholic Church in order to study for the priesthood because that is where he felt the Lord was calling this person.

--

Daniel,

Please keep us updated and know that you will be in our prayers.

Admin

Oh, Brian You did too! sending me Orthodox Sumbliminal Messages over voice, i remmeber thouse! haha.

Adim, i will keep you up too date and all of you
that have replyed to my post. Im going to Divine Liturgy again, i will see what happens that sunday.

Brian Congrats! How much sooner will you be recieved? I still think you just enter the Greek Orthodoxy, JK! Good Luck though.

Admin: Thanks for all the suport your extremely Help full, you too Brian. Hey and you need to get on Yahoo! im getting bored with out you there!

From: Daniel
In The Theotokos and the Byzantine Catholic Church!

Glory to Jesus Christ,

Dear Admin, notice I said, "some people would, but I wouldn't". It was totally meant in fun and not a serious suggestion from me. All of the people that emailed me or IMed about your reply figured that out, but I guess inflection on the Internet isn't always that clear. And since they knew me better, they knew my intents.

And you advice about having a spiritual Father guiding one's transition is right on the money. For months before making my transition I spoke with a UGCC spiritual Father about what I'd learned in my Patristic studied and my desires, and then when he & I knew it was inevitable that I must change Churches, I contacted a Spiritual Father to guide me in transition to where I belong. Its the best way for everyone to make such a transition too IMO. God Bless!

quote
--------------------------------------------------
"One of the questions one must consider is whether one is seeking or fleeing. Those who seek usually find. Those who flee seldom find. This is why it is of great importance for someone on the journey to have a good spiritual father. Only a fool makes such a journey without help from an elder member of the community."
--------------------------------------------------
I can support this position. Often times in this fast world we live in not enough time is given to the Lord and what he wants. Does it matter how long it takes? Having a Spiritual Director is very important and necessary for anyone who is serious about their calling in life. The world offers too many distractions. The Admin. has given sound advice.
For my part I have several years behind me and it is because of the 60's rule in the RC Church that has lead me to search the Orthodox. I found a certain peace while on retreat with the Monks at Holy Transfiguration Skete in the U.P. of Mich.
Patience and discernment is difficult, yet the harvest the harvest can be sweet.Mom can be a very important resource for any of us. Ask Her. Deacon Pat

Dear Nik,

I, for one, know that you have been in close contact with priests who have given you excellent advice and concur with your decision to become Orthodox.

That's why I know you recognize the humour in statements I would make in jest about you like, "In accepting you, doesn't Orthodoxy have any standards any more?"

It is just that I bemoan your loss as a tragedy for our Church.

I believe God calls us to become Orthodox, or Roman Catholics or Eastern Catholics.

As long as we respect one another and our traditions, we are all in God's love and fulfilling His Will for His Body the Church that is destined to be united one day - in His way, not ours.

Alex

Dear Administrator,

I once played the role of Sir Thomas More in the "Man for all Seasons" in high school.

Your comments to Nik reminded me of More's comment to his future son-in-law, William Roper when he asked for his daughter's hand in marriage and I quote from memory:

More: There's nothing wrong with your family, Will - there's nothing much wrong with you, except that you seem to need a clock.

Roper: I can buy a clock, Sir!

More: You know what I mean, Will. Two years ago you were an impassioned Churchman. And now you are an impassioned Lutheran. We must just pray that when your head's stopped spinning, your face is back up to the front again!

Administrator, whenever you need some useless information, you know who to contact!

Alex

I would hardly compare the character in Bolt's play (excellent) who flirted with Lutheranism circa 1532 with Nik who has obviously prayed, studied and received direction on his road.

Peace,
Brian

P.S. Yours in admiration of the play and film

yes, I am an Anglophile

Dear Brian,

What's up, Dox?

I wasn't comparing William Bolt with Nik.

Only the Administrator's comment with More's conversation.

And William Roper was a very dedicated Christian.

The fact that he flirted with Lutheranism takes nothing away from him.

He was the one who wrote the biography of More and who stayed with him to the bitter end.

He was the one who asked Thomas Cromwell to be the godfather for his first child, to show that there were no hard feelings.

He wrote,"After riding with Sir Thomas for a long time, he turned to me and pulled my ear and said, 'I've resolved the matter!' The grace of God worked wondrously in him."

As for Lutherans, St Clement Hofbauer of the Redemptorists spent time as a missionary among the German Lutherans.

His famous line was, "The Germans became Lutherans because they wanted to live as Christians."

So no offense to Nik and certainly none to his beard . . .

Alex

Hi:

Well, initially because it is worth it. But I don't think it is difficult, it just has a process and the process is not one that results in immediate gratification as we are most used to in our modern society.

Yes, that might be true, and yet RCIA is not like a college course where you're supposed to receive a grade based on the skills you show on some test.

RCIA stands for Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults. And as any Rite, it has a certain sequence of steps that you must follow. One of these steps is discipleship and one of the things you need for discipleship is humilty. Something I have a hard time finding in your statement above.

This is unusually long. Are you sure you're doing your part? It is not only about knowing or not knowing. Becoming a Catholic is much more about doing than about knowing.

It is you who need salvation, and so it is you who must follow the rules. You will not earn your salvation with your knowledge about the Eastern Catholic Churches. It is God who will save you by His Grace and through His Church, as soon as you're willing to receive this free gift from Him in faith, obedience and love.

So get rid of that "I already know" attitude and say: "Speak, Lord. Your servant listens".

You can count on our prayers.

Shalom,
Memo.

Dear Memo,

And catechesis is a life-long thing, as I have come to learn.

No one is so smart or learned in Christianity that they cannot learn more or be surprised by new things.

I'm surprised on this Forum with what I learn every day!

Alex

Hi:

I disagree.

My youngest son, Jose de Jesus was baptized during the Paschal Vigil, 1999, in Guadalajara, Mexico. Unless things have dramatically changed since, these classes were two one-hour sessions, mandatory for parents and godparents.

The goal of the first session is to make sure that everybody understands what are we getting ourselves into with this "rising the child as a Christian" stuff.

The second session you go over the rite of Baptism itself so that nobody would feel unconfortable during the rite itself.

Sometimes, alas, one hour is not nearly enough to cover the topics.

Is this too much? I don't think so. If anything, it is too little.

And it is not an excuse for waiting, your "certificates" are valid for one year. So you have all 9 months of pregnancy to take the classes if you want to have your child baptized a week after birth.

And for the record, for all three of my children, I was perfectly able not only to teach the classes, but also to teach the lay teachers about how the class should be given. Nevertheless, I attended class every time because I love my Church and I have no problem with obeying her precepts.

Well, in my parish the Pastor is usually involved, except whe he is ill or something like that.

The sacraments of initiation must be received in the Church you belong to. This is not bureaucracy, it is respect for the jurisdiction of a Particular Church.

If you want your children to receive sacraments of initiation in a BC parish, you have to canonically become a member of that BC Church.

Not all Orthodox jurisdictions will recognize the Roman Catholic Confirmation as a valid Chrismation.

In the times of the Fathers, one used to be a Catechumen for YEARS, and only be admited to Baptism when one was deemed worthy of it, and it was not easy.

Wana go back to that tradition? Fine, but I don't think you're going to find a lot of support in people who want fast-food-like sacramental preparation.

Shalom,
Memo.

Hi Alex:

And I totally agree. With God there is always more. Of everything.

Shalom,
Memo.

"And for the record, for all three of my children, I was perfectly able not only to teach the classes, but also to teach the lay teachers about how the class should be given. Nevertheless, I attended class every time because I love my Church and I have no problem with obeying her precepts."

It is great that you got involved in your children's catechesis, many troubles would be avoided if the parents participate and supervize that the lay teachers are really teaching catholicism.

"Not all Orthodox jurisdictions will recognize the Roman Catholic Confirmation as a valid Chrismation".

It depends on the jurisdiction but it also depends on the parish in some cases because there's not a standard method, as far as i know. Sometimes RC are received through confession and communion, but now RC are almost always received through chrismation. It is not that the chrismations are not valid, it's about the grace that the sacrament imparts.
It is probable that in the coutries were Orthodoxy is predominant and the RC is seen like any other christian denomination, people would be chrismated, but if the priets have had contact with Roman Catholicism and know that they have tides and that the sacraments are similar, they would make an exception.

Dear Remie,

You are right about parental involvement.

When I taught religion for five years, I always got the parents involved in the religious discussions we were having.

After two years, I had some parents come into my class to participate in the discussions!

(Neat or what?)

And when I had parents, I would always try to "wow" them with some obscure fact about this or that to really make them shake their heads in amazement.

I try to do that here, but you people know too much for me . . .

Alex

Ive Got every thing Figured out now!
I went to Divine Liturgy and talked with my Byzantine Catholic Priest about becoming a Byzantine Catholic. He said he wants me to
attend his Adult Catechesis Class or Eastern Christian Formation Class, and Keep coming to Divine Liturgy, and if I keep doing that, it will
lead up to my Reception in the Byzantine Catholic Church.

I do wish the Ruthenian Jurisdiction had a more Organized way of becoming a Byzantine Catholic. Like the Roman RCIA. But i think the way the Byzantine Ruthenian Church does it in america is much quiker. But ive been told, by alot of Roman Catholic Priest, that RCIA is almost usefull because the teachers themselves are non properley catechized or lack true orthodox Roman Catholicism.

From: Daniel
In The Holy + Theotokos

Correction "Useless" not "Usefull!"

From: daniel
In The Holy Theotokos

Dear StBenedict,

Then perhaps you should join the Ukrainian Catholic Church.

We'll take you, as the evangelical hymn says, "Just as you are!"

Alex

Orthodox Catholic: Thanks for the offer but no thanks, I find the Ukrainian Catholic Church, to latinized for my taste.

From: Daniel
In The Holy+Theotokos

Ill Stick with the Byzantine Ruthenian Catholic Church. More Eastern in tradition.

From: Daniel
In The Holy+Theotokos

I should put in a good word for the Melkites who have historically been at the forefront of removing Latinizations from their Eastern Praxis. Read about Patriarch Maximos IV Saigh at Vatican II.

That is, if you can't make it to St Andrew's Russian Catholic parish in El Segundo (an excellent parish and which has an excellent priest in Father Alexei!)

Peace,
Brian

Dear StBenedictRule,

Your screen name is the above and you complain of Latinization?

The Latinization in our Church was largely inflicted by others . . .

And there are many Ukrainian Catholic Churches that are examples of true Byzantine spirituality, beating out most of even your elitist Ruthenian parishes .

My parish is so Eastern, that we have about 25% Orthodox who attend weekly liturgy, many of whom eventually and formally become Ukrainian Catholic.

I've seen Melkite parishes with stations of the Cross etc. Your Uniontown Odpust may also have more Latinizations than we up here currently have.

But I was just making that offer half in jest.

The Ukrainian Catholic Church, in reality, just doesn't accept anyone - we have standards .

And it is ritually diverse with Latinization at one end of the spectrum and "High Orthodoxy" at the other.

Alex

Another completely eastern Ukrainian Catholic parish is of course Saint Elias in Brampton, Ontario. You can't get much more eastern than them.

In Christ,
Anthony Saint Elias

Dear Anthony,

That's where I'm headed soon . . .

An amazing parish, truly. Is there even one Ruthenian parish that comes close to it?

Alex

Dear Alex,

There may be a few that come close, but I believe St. Elias is in a class all by itself.

In Christ,
Anthony

Dear Anthony,

You got that "rite!"

Alex

I've seen Ruthenian Parishes that are similar to
that of which the parish you speak of. Most are in the Archeparchy of Pittsburgh.

My Byzantine Parish is not latinized at all.
Orthodox Cath: your funny! I was after all a Roman Catholic once before i went to the Eastern Church's. St. Benedict is one of my Favorite Saints.

Brian is one of the People who helped aid my journey to the east. Even though he tryed to lead me to Orthodoxy but couldnt do it!. Just kidding brian.

From: Daniel Harrison
In The Holy+Theotokos

My initial reaction to this whole thread was: these folks are talking about "Church" as if it was some monolithic entity.

The fact remains, the "Church" really consists of the people. And the people are all over the place in terms of rituals, practices, lifestyles, etc. And they go under a whole boat-load of jurisdictional titles. There are Johnstown parishes that are still quite 1920s latinized-Ruthenian, though Orthodox. There are Greek parishes that are 'Americanized'. There are ROCOR and HOCNA parishes that are still living in 1840 Novgorod. There are OCA parishes that are still rather "Ruthenian" and others that have become High Russian even though there ain't a Borscht-eater within a 100 miles.

My point is: one isn't becoming "Catholic (RC/BYZ)" One enters a particular Church with a whole load of people who are in it. And their ways of living are all over the place: Some perfectly 11th Century Byzantine, some Slavic Europeanized, some Americanized, some Frenchified Arabs, some book-Churched.

One finds a parish community where one can flourish spiritually (and psychologically) and makes the commitment to the people who are there. "For better or for worse; in sickness or in health, for richer or for poorer, till death us do part." Yup! You're getting married to the community.

If one is commitment-phobic, go join the Y.

Blessings!

Well, the Russian Catholic Parishes are equal in Praxis but St Elias is AMAZING and has a great group of the Reverend clergy.

Would not have thought it was Ukrainian Catholic

The Russian Catholic's Dont even have their own
Hiarchy yet.

The Russian Catholic's Dont even have their own
Hiarchy yet.

From: Daniel
In The Holy Theotokos

Were are all you guys at?

From: Daniel H.
In The Theotokos

We're all at the Ukrainian Catholic Church, eating pyrohy and playing bingo. Sorry that it's too Latin for you.

You are still welcome. I believe that the Church of Josyf Slipyj and Andrew Sheptytsky is the center of both Catholicism and of orthodoxy, the one that is both bridge between and mentor to both branches of the Church.

Have a Blessed St. Francis' Day !!!

John
Pilgrim and Odd Duck

Not Every thing is too latin for me!
I still wear a Brown Scapular and carry roman sacramentals.

From: Daniel
In The Holy+Theotokos

St. Michael's Russian Catholic Church in NYC has no pews, has Vespers every week and is very Eastern regardless of their current canonical situation.

The Ukrainian Catholic Church under Metropolitan +Andrey Sheptytsky and Patriarch +Josyp assisted the Russian Catholics from their inception and offered the omophorion of the Ukrainian Catholic Church. Russian Catholic Exarch Blessed +Leonid Federov worked under the omophorion of Ukrainian Catholic Blessed Metropolitan +Andrey.

We even had Old Believer priests working under Ukrainian Catholic Metropolitan +Andrey. The only Julian (Old) Calendar Eastern Catholic monastery currently in North America is Ukrainian Catholic (Orangeville, Ontario) and has no pews.
"Latinized", huh?

Nothing can compare to St. Elias in Brampton in North America (St. Nicholas in Toronto is good, as is Volodymyr and Olha in Chicago which has Vespers and Utrenya - wait, these are both Ukrainian???). And ex-OCA priest Father David Anderson's Ukrainian Catholic parish in California has Vespers and Matins as well.

I agree with the statements about the Melkites. Don't forget them. There are several Melkite parishes that have Vespers as well and we all owe a great debt to the pioneering work of Archbishops Raya and Zogby as well as Patriarchs Maximos IV and V in not only getting respect from the Latins but also awakening our own people to the riches of our Eastern tradition.

Right now, in Chicago on a Saturday night, you can go to Vespers at three different Ukrainian Catholic parishes, one in Ukrainian, one in English and one mixed. In the Toronto area, even more. Got a city with three Ruthenian parishes offering Vespers on a given Saturday night(I'm talking about parishes, not the seminary)? If there is such a place, I would like to know.

The previous statements about the Ukrainian Catholic church being "more latinized" are off-base. All Eastern Catholic churches have suffered from Latinizations, but all are working to remove these. As these took a long time to develop, they will take time, education and charity to remove.

And if you really want to see latinized, look at the Maronites or Armenians, although especially with the Armenians there are efforts to overcome that stigma.

Christ is Among Us!

When i as talking about latinizations, i was refering to the quickness that the churchs were getting rid of the latinizations. The Ukrainians,
seem to been going kinda slow, on trying to
bring back full eastern traditions.

From: Daniel
In The Holy+Theotokos

Dear Daniel,

I guess the truth is that all parishes are local. Some Ukrainian parishes are almost indistiguishable from Latin Parishes, some are very close to Russian Orthodox, and most muddle along in the middle.

One of the problems faced by the Clergy of the Eastern Churches is that, through poor education of the faithful, many have grown up with the idea that the Roman way is the best way, the "most Catholic". These people are now the backbone of the parish, and are used to certain things done in certain ways.

The Pastor and the Bishop cannot afford (quite literally) to alienate these folks, if they want to keep the parish open and functioning. What is needed is an educational /informational effort over a period of years, perhaps generations, to teach the young the authentic traditions of the Eastern Church.

Interestingly, it seems that even Patriarch Lubomyr leads Stations of the Cross in Lviv during Great Lent.

If he is our leader, how can we say any parish priest or group of parishioners is wrong to have Stations in their Church?

I, for one, being half Polish, do not think "Latin" devotions and practices bring a "stigma" (as Diak implied) upon a Parish or Church. It seemed to me to be a pejorative usage of language against a sister Church.

Latin devotions and practices can only be viewed in light of whether they help the individual parishioners get closer to Jesus.

Have a Blessed Day !!!

John
Pilgrim and Odd Duck

Slava Isusu Christu!

Dear John,

I believe St. Andrew Sheptesky was half Polish and half Ukrainian. I also believe the Ukrainian Catholic Churches run a very wide spectrum. I believe the newer Church constructions are very Orthodox in Liturgy and design. This is because we are
now finally moving in realizing the dreams of St. Andrew Sheptsky and Patriarch Slipyj. That dream being Orthodox in Communion with Rome.

I am always more than amused when people say the Ukrainian Churches are too Latin. I believe Patriarch Slipyj was one of the most Orthodox men in the world at the end of his life. But he also carried Rosary Beads with him and had a great devotion to the Rosary. If Patriarch Slipyj could do this it is more than a legitimate devotion.

In the end, the style of the Church depends on the tastes of the parishners. Those tastes run from Byzantine-Latin to Greek Catholic-Orthodox.

Christ Is Among Us!

I think if its a Byzantine Catholic Church, it should be completley eastern in tradition. Latinization like "Stations, Statues ect..." dont belong in a Byzantine Parish, its just not in the tradition or in the spirituality. The amount of our tradition being used in our eastern parish shouldnt be based on what the parishoners "feel like", but should be based only on the Spirituality and traditions of the christian east, according to the different ethinic jurisdictions.

From: Daniel
In The Holy+Theotokos

StBen,

Should Latin parishes have Eastern icons in their churches? It seems that icons are primarily or wholly Eastern, and thus should not be displayed in Latin parishes.

ChristTeen287

Slava Isusu Christu!

Dear Daniel,

if the Churches did not do what the Parishners wanted how would we still have a Church?

I have never seen a Ukrainian Byzantine Catholic Church with Statues. Everyone I have seen have Icons. I believe the Stations of the Cross John is referring to is temporary. Patriarch Husar is honoring this devotion and not instituting it in the Ukrainian Church.

Christ Teen I have never seen a Latin Church with Icons. Are there actually Icons in the Latin Churches in your area?

"Should Latin parishes have Eastern icons in their churches? It seems that icons are primarily or wholly Eastern, and thus should not be displayed in Latin parishes."

It's sad to see that many modern Roman parishes don't have religious images anymore, no matter if they're icons or statues, they've been removed in many places.
There are certain traditions in the Western Church where there's not a very important veneration of the images (they're used for aesthetical decoration only), but the Spanish tradition has a lot of veneration of images (the term "statues" is not used)and are an important part of the religious culture.
About the icons, there's no doubt, they are a fundamental part of the christian piety in the East. The West would be really enriched if the parishes start to put images and icons again.
The West has always had veneration of icons too, in this case the veneration would be fully restored, but it wouln't be totally "new" (or an "Easternization").
If I had money I would try to bring icons to all the parishes I know, no matter if they're catholic or orthodox. I'm sure that people would feel better in a Church that follows the christian tradition, and not in a "modern" building with pieces of modern art.

Dear Friends,

In the Latin Church, several icons or icon-like images are quite common. Our Lady of Perpetual Help is often displayed. Wherever the Franciscan Friars have a parish, the San Damiano Crucifix is commonly displayed. And there is the image not made by hands of Our Lady of Guadalupe.

Also, many of the images in the Stained Glass windows are icon-like.

In most countries, of course, there is not the type of veneration of icons in the Latin Church that is common in Eastern Churches.

And, of course, modern church architecture has replaced windows with brick walls and eliminated most art.

Have a Blessed Day !!!

John
Pilgrim and Odd Duck

As quoted above:

"In most countries, of course, there is not the type of veneration of icons in the Latin Church that is common in Eastern Churches."

I understand the poster's perspective on this. And I agree. But I think that there is a problem because the understanding of the underlying theology is that of the West and not of the East. We don't really venerate icons. (Yeah, if you're going to be academic about it, then sure.) But, icons are just part of the lived experience of the Church community; it's a gut understanding, and buried deep in the bones. The icon to us Easterns is something that is a "reality" that is truly a "window to the other side". And when one has lived with this all one's life, it's not really explainable in terms of its this-world reality. Latin statues don't even come close to this understanding. Statues are "images"; icons are "direct realities" in this world of what is the reality in the spiritual realm. Thus, we Easterns cringe when we find icons in the West that are treated as if they were statues, i.e., "images". Is it any wonder that we wish to "rescue" icons from potential abuse by Westerns who don't understand their spiritual reality.

Perhaps we're just ignorant children of peasants who have our superstitions inherited from them. But the fact remains, icons to us are not "sacramentals", but they have a real sacramental reality for us believers, and I mean SACRAMENTAL.

Icons are our way of accessing the world of spiritual reality. We stand before them; we contemplate the reality re-presented by the image and we acknowledge that the reality presented in the icon is a reality for the believer who stands before the icon and who venerates it in faith.

Our Latin brethren don't have anything comparable to this graced vehicle of access to the spiritual realm. (Well, veneration of relics is probably the closest since it is understood to connect the believer with the spiritual reality of the relic.)

So, we need to make sure that the theological and spiritual realities of our Eastern peoples is passed on intact. And we need to insure ourselves that our spiritual realities are not abused by those who do not understand anything beyond: "It's pretty".

Blessings!

And, of course, modern church architecture has replaced windows with brick walls and eliminated most art.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dr John:
[QB]As quoted above:

"In most countries, of course, there is not the type of veneration of icons in the Latin Church that is common in Eastern Churches."

I understand the poster's perspective on this. And I agree. But I think that there is a problem because the understanding of the underlying theology is that of the West and not of the East. We don't really venerate icons. (Yeah, if you're going to be academic about it, then sure.) But, icons are just part of the lived experience of the Church community; it's a gut understanding, and buried deep in the bones. The icon to us Easterns is something that is a "reality" that is truly a "window to the other side". And when one has lived with this all one's life, it's not really explainable in terms of its this-world reality. Latin statues don't even come close to this understanding. Statues are "images"; icons are "direct realities" in this world of what is the reality in the spiritual realm. Thus, we Easterns cringe when we find icons in the West that are treated as if they were statues, i.e., "images". Is it any wonder that we wish to "rescue" icons from potential abuse by Westerns who don't understand their spiritual reality.

Perhaps we're just ignorant children of peasants who have our superstitions inherited from them. But the fact remains, icons to us are not "sacramentals", but they have a real sacramental reality for us believers, and I mean SACRAMENTAL.

Icons are our way of accessing the world of spiritual reality. We stand before them; we contemplate the reality re-presented by the image and we acknowledge that the reality presented in the icon is a reality for the believer who stands before the icon and who venerates it in faith.

Our Latin brethren don't have anything comparable to this graced vehicle of access to the spiritual realm. (Well, veneration of relics is probably the closest since it is understood to connect the believer with the spiritual reality of the relic.)

So, we need to make sure that the theological and spiritual realities of our Eastern peoples is passed on intact. And we need to insure ourselves that our spiritual realities are not abused by those who do not understand anything beyond: "It's pretty".

Blessings!

Steven: Some Parishoners want women ordination and clerical celibacy too!

From: Daniel
In The Holy+Theotokos

I kinda feel bad for the Roman Church, it seems that the Roman Church in america is getting to americanized to the culture, the new archeticture of most modern parishs make it look like a Store, or Office Depot some times. The most orthodox roman catholicism in tradition and theology and spiritualtiy ive ever seen in america, is EWTN Roman Catholicism. They are the most traditional latin catholics in the country it seems. What ever happend to Bendiction in the Roman Church that is almost exticnt in areas. I think both Traditons East and Especially West should come back to full traditions of spirituality, theology, art, archeticture.

Dr. I do agree with you on Ikons. I think Roman Churchs should stick with the stations, rosary, holy water fonts, staind glass, statues.

and i think Eastern Churchs should stick with Ikons and every thing that is traditional according to the ethnic Jurisdiction.

From: Daniel
In The Holy+Theotokos

Two questions:
1) Do Eastern Catholic churches have holy water fonts? If not, why?
2) Can anyone direct me to not-too-long articles on how and why Eastern Christians view icons as they do? I think it's great, but I would like to know more.

Thanks,
ChristTeen287

Christteen

Christ Is Among Us!

No the Eastern Churchs dont use Holy Water Fonts.
Its never been part of the Eastern Tradition.

Here are 3 links about Byzantine Ikons.

http://www.byzantines.net/moreinfo/icons.htm

http://www.byzantines.net/moreinfo/venerateIcons.htm

http://www.byzantines.net/moreinfo/iconsInTheBCC.htm

From: Daniel
In The Holy+Theotokos

Dear Daniel, I beg to differ. Some Eastern Catholic Churches indeed do have holy water fonts...call it a latinization if you will, but it does happen. Since the Eastern Catholics do use holy water in their homes and private (as well a public) devotions, I see no reason why this particular custom should be abandoned in places where it is of long standing use. Don

Dear Daniel and Don (it has been a long time),

Holy water fonts are not a Latinization. They have been used throughout Christiandom since (i think) the beginning. They are evidenced by their presence (and i know this for sure) in churches in Cappadocia from the 6th-12th centuries.

There are services in the Trebnik/Euchologion (manual of priest's prayers) for "small" blessings of water which traditionally were performed many times throughout the year (besides the greater blessing of water at Theophany and a different one for baptisms).

The water left over after the people had been blessed and drunk at these water blessings was often left in the church for the faithful to bless themselves.

Randy and Adam, I thought that was the case, but since I didn't have the facts at my fingertips I was just saying what I did know. I prefer not making pontifical statements about things I can't confirm with facts. Thanks for filling in the gaps I left. Don

As far as I know [which is not that far], holy water "fonts" are not a feature of contemporary Orthodox Church practice [or Orthodox Church practice at the time of the Uniya(s)]. Neither is the Latin custom [however laudable] of dipping one's finger into a holy water font and with it making a small poklon when entering and exiting the Temple.

So I would tend to agree with "StBenedictRules" at least on the prescriptive level.

Though "Don in Kansas" is correct on the descriptive level that there are still some parish churches with fonts - and I do tend to think it is a latinization. And I appreciate his caveat about dealing with it in a pastoral way - though ultimately if it is a Latinization....

Is "Diak" saying that the Lesser Blessing is for holy water Fonts and there are Orthodox Churches wherein after the Lesser Blessing [which I only know to be generally done at Praznyks etc.]the left over holy water is put in a font by the doors for people to using in making poklons?

If so, I must recant my above posting.

Of course I am only speaking of those Churches of the Byzantine rite. Other and more "Eastern" Churches may have other practices.

cix

herb.

Slava Isusu Christu!

"TRADITIONALLY" Holy Water fonts are not apart of Eastern Christian Tradition. They are used because of latinizations. Even though they are used as Latinizations in some Byzantine Catholic Churchs it doesnt me that they are used and are Traditional to the orthodox Eastern Traditions.

I dont know if you noticed im an Eastern Tradition Traditonalist .

From: Daniel
In The Holy+Theotokos

Daniel, may I ask how long you have been a Byzantine Catholic? Don

Bless me a sinner, Father Don!

Yes, I too wonder about converts, even to our Church, who are more traditional than the cradles.

But there are Latinizations even among the Orthodox and they don't get their noses all twisted out of joint because of them.

In fact, Latinizations that occurred among the former Greek Catholics who became Orthodox up here in this wilderness are still maintained - custom, tradition and because they just plain like it.

No one has suggested they are less Orthodox for it.

Alex

Alex, my biggest question is how do we determine what are authentic Byzantine traditions? Is there some magic line in the sands of time that says here is where authentic Byzantine tradition begins and Latinizations or innovations begin? Just because some Orthodox jurisdiction does or does not do something in the present day make things a part of the tradition or not? What I find most amusing is how scholars, priests, bishops and theologians (not to mention historians) devote their whole lives and not find answers to these and related questions, but someone who isn't even a Catholic yet, let alone a Byzantine Catholic, knows more than someone who has been one for years? I just can't believe these converts at times...and I am one myself! Don

It seems to me that the practise of having a holy water font is a remenant of the ancient (and still current) ritual washing of hands (as well as the face in dusty area). The fact of the matter is that in ancient Christian temples, there were small basins (far too small for baptisms, even of infants) that were either free standing or carved into the wall, typically to the immediate south of the entryway, either in the nave or the narthex. Still thinking of the Cappadocian examples, i can hardly believe that Latinizations crept into these in the 7th or 10th century in a remote part of the byzantine empire.

Thanks again Adam! Don

Easy, Don, don't go a-feudin on us, my southeastern Missouri (transplanted to Kansas) brother...

I think we can safely say the organs in Greek Orthodox and some other Eastern Christian parishes is definitely a latinization... There's a few others that are pretty obvious...

Alex is right on target...I have seen old pictures of the 30s with OCA and Carpatho-Russian Orthodox priests wearing headgear like kolpaks or even biretta-looking things sometime. The priests took their latinizations right over from the Greek Catholics when they became Orthodox.

Getting back to the water font issue, there are washings of the hands and face of the bishop appointed in the Archieraticon, the book containing services when the bishop is present including the Byzantine Pontifical Divine Liturgy.

The Archieraticon in general has preserved several of the more ancient Byzantine liturgical traditions.

The use of ritual washing is certainly scriptural, patristic, and within the known liturgical tradition.

Slava Isusu Christu!

I was Roman Catholic for a (1yr 1/2) and ive been
byzantine catholic for (2yr 1/2).
Dont get me wrong i love the Roman Catholic Church, but i just dont want to see the rites mixed up. I mean picture an Ikon Screen at a Latin Parish. I love the Roman Church especially how EWTN shows the Traditional Roman Catholicism.
I dont hate on the Roman Church, i just think the Traditions of the West Should Stay with the west and the Traditions of the East should stay in the East.
I dont hate on the Roman Church at all, i mean im going to become a Capuchin Fransican as a byzantine catholic. All im trying to say is stick with the Traditions of the East if your Parish is east and Stick to the Traditions of the West if yor Parish is Roman. we cant have Ikon Screen in latin parishs and Statues, Stations, Gregorian Chant, in a Byzantine Parish.

From: Daniel
In The Holy+Theotokos

Daniel,

I'm confused. You started this thread "complaining" about the length of time you have been a catechumen and how entrance into the Catholic Church has alluded you. Yet you state you were Roman Catholic for a 1 1/2 years, and ByzCath now for 2 1/2 years. Did I miss something?

You speak of keeping the traditions of the East and West seperate, yet you want to become an OFM Cap as a Byzantine Catholic. Isn't this a direct contradiction to what you said in your post? Why not embrace the Eastern tradition of becoming a monk at Holy Ressurection Monastery?

bisantino;

Christ Is Among Us!

Ive been a non-canonical catholic.
I claimed to be catholic, but was never "Officaly" recieved yet. Ever since i thought of the idea of priesthood, when i was (RC)
I wanted to be a capuchin fransican. When i became a byzantine catholic, i was still extremeley drawn to the OFM Cap.
No i dont think it would be contradictory, because
really your not mixing up traditions. Because being a Byzantine Catholic In the OFM Cap, would just mean taking the charism of the order and using the byzantine traditions to express it.

I did think about H.R.M as a monk, but it never really attracted me. I guess is not what God wants for me. I was looking at my ikon corner today, and most my latin pictures were of fransicans. I didnt even notice till now.
Their are some Byzantine Fransicans that are totaly byzantine in tradition, no latinizations, even though their in a latin order. Kinda Confusing

From: Dan
In The Holy+Theotokos

Daniel, if you haven't been "officially" received into the Church (either RC or BC), then you ain't a Catholic yet. At the most you could be considered a catechumen...I think you need to get that taken care of before you start planning on becoming a religious in any commmunity. Most Orders I know of require new converts to be a card carrying member of the the Church (meaning OFFICIALLY CATHOLIC) for several years before they will take you. Granted, exceptions may be made, but ideally they like you to be over the starry eyed phase and know what it is like being Catholic after the honeymoon wears off. Don (who has been there and done that and lived to tell about it.)

Bless me a sinner, Father Don!

So, when you became Ukrainian Catholic, that was a "Don deal?"

O.K., I'll get back to work.

Alex

"Daniel, if you haven't been "officially" received into the Church (either RC or BC), then you ain't a Catholic yet."

So when do people become catholic "officially"? I thought that the Roman Church acknowledged the protestant baptism as a valid baptism, and the Orthodox chrismation as a valid chrismation, and that people was received only through simple confession of faith.
Is it that there's a new burocratic procedure (I wouldn't be surprised)?

Dear Remie:

James Akin of "Catholic Answers" provides an answer to your post, at least as far as the Catholic Church in the U.S. is concerned:

http://www.catholic.com/library/how_to_become_a_catholic.asp

AmdG

thank you for the answer, it is very complete, but I'd like to know what happens when an Orthodox christian becomes Catholic, are there clear examples?

Slava Isusu Christu!

Religious Order dont accept canadiates for the Order that are not Canonical Catholic's (BYZ/RC).
I'm going to start applying to the O.F.M. Cap,
in (1 1/2 -2years) By then i will have been a Canonical Byzantine Catholic for a little over a year. Right now my vocation'(s) director'(s) know that im not Canonical Catholic, but say that it is good that i Start Planning on Religious Life, if you are Truly Serious about entering the Order. Which I am.

From: Daniel H
In The Holy+Theotokos

Daniel,
I personally became Catholic and had to wait 3 years! Take the time humbly to learn about the faith and you wont be disappointed.
Besides there is more to learning the faith than just "learning about" the faith. Learn to live and breath it, savor its beauty and glory.

Stephanos I
Unworthy Monk and Archsinner

I think that the Latiniak perspective is one of "joining the Church" through baptism, chrismation or whatever.

For us Byzantines, the "letter of the law" is NOT the criterion. The reality of being a Byzantine Catholic (or an Orthodox for that matter) is the reality of being a member of the community.

As I have stated before, the Western perspective of Church membership is that of "joining a gym". One is interested, one visits, one pays one's dues and then one is a member.

In the East, it is not so. One can visit, one can be 'impressed' and one can 'make a commitment to the spirituality', but the KEY phenomenon and criterion is one's ability to become a part of a worshipping community. Unless - and until - a person truly integrates him/herself into the community, one's membership is - at best - suspect.

The primary question is this: can one live one's Christianity "alone" or must one be a part of a praying 'ekklesia'. For the East, one MUST be part of a community, otherwise it's just showmanship. To "assume" the rite, well that is just dumb. The "rite" is the practice of the people. Without the people, the rite is just theater.

For the Westerns who "do up" the Byzantine Rite in high dudgeon and high drag, well: how nice for your theater career. But this has NO relationship whatsoever with the Eastern Church or our peoples. So: leave us alone. And leave the costumes behind.

Blessings!

Dr. John,

Doesn't the "letter of the law" apply to marriage, Baptism of children and Holy Orders. You can be immersed in a community but if you are RC you will have to change Rites before any of the above would be considered.

Nicky's Baba

Dear Dr. John (El Greco),

Do I have your permission to give your post to our parish priest?

If so, I'll bring it to him next week when it's time to renew my annual parish membership dues . . .

Only with your permission, that is. Otherwise, the Administrator may hear from Father Pastor - and he already has to put up with enough from the two of us for starters!

And do you actually belong to a gym?

Alex

Dear Dr. John,

I found your concept that "the Western perspective of Church membership is that of "joining a gym." One is interested, one visits, one pays one's dues and then one is a member," to be quite thought provoking.

Talk about years of misunderstanding; you mean that this is what being part of the Church is about? I wish I'd been told this approach to Church membership years ago. Life would have been a whole lot easier and less challenging.

Why did the Church clutter our Western minds with beliefs like Communion of Saints, Body of Christ, fellow pilgrims, works of mercy and the building of Church through the Liturgy?

Now, where is that gym exactly? I guess it's time for me to start paying those dues! :rolleyes:

I wonder if Mother Teresa knew about this stuff?

Steve

Dear Steve,

Dr. John is living proof that Eastern Christians should stay away from Jesuits .

(Jumping over moral hurdles, theological fast-sticking, involvement in questionable politics and other exercises that could lead one to an understanding of the Church as a gym!).

But we love El Greco anyway!

Alex

Dear Alex,

Indeed we do love "El Greco."

Just think where we'd be if we couldn't jump, fast schtick, and exercise spiritually! I guess being jesuitical can't be all wrong.

Do you think that the gym that I belong to will mind my paying dues to this other gym?

This religion business can get pretty expensive, don't you think? Especially from the Western perspective. Do you guys have dues, too?

Steve (ever looking for ways to cut costs)

Dear Steve,

You could always join the Free Methodists!

There you can sit in your own pew for free!

Alex

post deleted

I hate to admit it - being a Latin myself but there is quite a lot in Dr John's post that I recognise about my own Parish !

We have a nominal roll of 5000 but Sunday attendance is about 1600 to 2000 till the annual census is taken - and then you wonder where they are coming from. [ Question - should the date of the Census be announced ? ]

The actual active Community in the Parish is very small though and mainly consists of the elderly.

Yes C of S [ on my side of the pond that means Church of Scotland and you most certainly aren't ] I take your point but his post makes you think about things - and that's no bad thing.

Angela

C of S,

I understand your concern, but in defense of Dr. John, he did say "those Westerners who" not "all Westerners." I also think that his point is true that if a Westerner wishes to enter and become a spiritual part of an Eastern parish, he fully understand that he may/will need to immerse himself in Eastern thought.

While we're on this topic, I will take advantage to say that I have sometimes found an amount of anti-Latin/Roman Catholic (anti-Western is a different thing) feelings on this forum. If voicing these obstinate opinions is aimed at driving someone away from the Latin Church and toward the Eastern Churches, I can personally attest that it has done exactly the opposite for me. Everyone should say what they see is wrong with both the Eastern and Western Church, but there is a point to where one gets just plain tacky and rude. 99% of the people on this board rarely (if ever) do this, but there are some few and far between occassions when I feel the Latin Church is being unfairly attacked, and through all that dark muck it's sometimes difficult to see the Light of the East.

ChristTeen287

ChristTeen,
Yes, criticism is good and healthy, absolutely. It is when it's tacky and mean, as you say, that it's not productive. I deleted my post above.
c of s

Dear Christ Teen and Communion of Saints,

I am happy to see that you have a love for our Latin Church and its traditions. You want others to show respect for her, too.

I just wanted to share with you a couple of things I've learned.

One is that some Eastern Catholic posters call practices Latinizaions if they are not seen to be traditionally Eastern and were imposed by Rome (not often), imposed by "occupying" political powers that were Roman Catholic( more frequently), or were imposed upon themselves in an attempt to show that they were not Orthodox (more common). At least this is what I understand from learning here. If I have misunderstood, I am sure that someone will correct me.

At any rate, there is a lot of baggage in the term Latinization! There is a lot of frustration behind its use, a great deal of which is not directed at the Latin Church at all. It appears to be directed at the slow pace at which some of the Churches are returning, if they choose to return, to what have been earlier practices of those Churches.

There may be a few posters who do not speak fairly or who speak uncharitably about the Latin Church. But, I've found that most of the time someone like Alex or the administrator will deal with them pretty effectively.

Dr. John is a very good man. He is a former member of the Jesuit Order and has a good grasp of the Western Church and its foibles as well as its strengths. In my opinion, his postings are usually balanced and he frequently reminds us all about what is truly important.

He comes up with valid insights, as Angela points out. Some of the insights are about the West. It seems to me that sometimes he puts them in ways that come across as putting down the Western churches. Hence my attempt at humor in reply.

I'm glad that you're here and that you post. I hope that you will learn a great deal about our Eastern Christian brothers and sisters and their Churches as well as those of other posters. They will learn from you also.

This forum is a true gem. I am grateful to be a guest here.

Thanks for hearing me out!

Steve

Dear Steve,

You are welcome!

Alex

Thank ya much. I love the Eastern Churches no less.

Yes, there is a lot of baggage and confusion. I absolutely support purging the Eastern Churches of latinizations, but the problem is determining what exactly the latinizations are.

Well, I hope that people aren't getting too upset with the Eastern Churches' leaders about the latinizations. I think too many people are too quick to criticize the Church heirarchy, both Eastern and Western. 99% of them are tryin' their darndest to service to the needs of the faithful, but Satan (as well as sinful human nature) will often interfere with this.

I'm not trying to attack the personal character of these (very few-in-number) posters. No one's perfect (OK OK, Our Blessed Mother...)

I can see that Dr. John is a very good man, and I do not disagree with what he said, as you can see from my post about 3 posts above.

I'm sure Dr. John's knowledge about the Church and his maturity surpass mine a million times over!

Thanks for the input, Steve. Yes, we are truly blessed to have this forum. Maybe if the Catholic and Orthodox Churches' leaders could converse over a forum like this, we'd see reunion much more quickly (quicker?)! God bless.

Pax Domine,
ChristTeen287

Imagine, if you will, that you're a lurker interested in this very subject of Catholicism in its Latin and Eastern forms -- and so you happily log onto this thread. And then you come upon this very negative post on page six. (This is my reply -- I'll try again after reading ChristTeen and Angela and Inawe's posts).

You'd say, "Oh, how enlightening! I never realized RC's don't care about community! I'm sure glad I found this out now, before I looked into one of their conversion programs! Why, I'll be sure to avoid them. They're nothing but card-carrying legalistic, letter of the law automatons! Wow, am I glad to be enlightened about this!" (While Angela says the post reflects real problems in RC life, to me it just appeared like the mean caricature I have just outlined).

Or, you'd say: "Why is this person yelling at RC's to 'leave us alone'? And 'leave the costumes at home!' -- why all this rancor?" It is not really explained, just a few emotionally charged statements -- enough to shock a person into saying, "What in the world is THIS all about?"
(That's what I said!!!)

I have to say that as a newcomer, I can easily place myself in the position of someone who would, on reading the post on page six of Dr. John, say to myself, "I guess the Byzantines would not welcome me." I can assure you that reading his post sure made me think twice!


This is a public place for people to get information. It is good that ChristTeen isn't affected adversely by negative comments about Latin Catholics or the Latin Church; what about the untold numbers of those who ARE, due to what is said here??

I simply thought it might be a good idea for someone who's a newcomer to point something like this out. You guys don't realize how many people might be affected by what you write!!!!

ChristTeen said that the post didn't say "all Westerners." Well, it doesn't matter if he said
"those Westerners who" instead of "all Westerners," since, in this case, it is the tone of the statement that makes a reader feel that it might just as well be an attack on all RC's -- that's sure what it sounded like to me!

Anyway, this isn't supposed to be a place where families are having squabbles and quibbling about things. We are supposed to be helping one another -- aren't we? And perhaps helping to draw others to Christ -- and to church -- not driving them away from church!!!

Just had to try again.

I think we should be aware of how our words might affect others!

Don't you?

Yours in the Communion of Saints,
May all the holy ones intercede for us!!

And where's the starter of this thread, Daniel in the Theotokos/St. Benedict's Rule? He was trying to decide what to do.
I can't recall exactly - he wished to be a Capuchin who was also Byzantine? Was that it? Perhaps he has reported his progress and decision on another thread and I missed it.

Yours
in the Communion of Saints!

I join you in the Communion of Saints:

You are not the first, nor would you be the last, to experience a good shellacking from our Eastern counterparts.

Many have preceded you and some have vanished altogether and never came back. Most RCs, like me, have remained because they crave to learn more about these "weird" Eastern catholics.

After a time, you will discover the beauty of their ritual Churches which certainly adds to the diversity and universality of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

You have encountered in Dr. John a display of the exquisite passion one has in his own particular Church. He is, to my mind, the compleat double Greek Catholic!

Perhaps, I share with Dr. John the fact that we both learned our Latin conjugations from and under the Jesuits. I lament, therefore, his loss to us Romans when he chose to return to his first love: the Greek Catholic Church. But, to each his own and I believe he is doing well at his end.

Wait till you meet the "extreme" advocates of the Ruthenians, the Ukrainians, the Melkites, the Armenians, the Copts, and other sui juris Catholic Churches of the East and you will have a handful (and an earful!).

This Forum (on the Byzantine traditons) is the best there is, bar none.

And I bear the consequences for being here because I have also my own "agenda."

I want these Easterners to discard their "first among equals" mentality as regards the Holy Father. I want them to pay homage and to render obeisance to him as the "Supreme Pontiff" and as the "Universal Pastor" of the worldwide Church.

Care to join me? And before I forget, let's hammer into them that His Holiness, Pope John Paul II, has supreme and direct jurisdiction over all Churches (at least the Catholic ones ), East and West.

And what "latinisms' or "latinizations?"

Welcome to the real world of East-West dialoque.

AmdG

C of S,

I must humbly disagree, I have been affected by the few "attacks" on the Western Church that I have seen. See my own quote, stated a few posts above. I'll reproduce it below.

"Opposite for me" means that the viciousness toward the Western Church has drawn me toward the Western Church, to defend it, and in the meantime, regrettably, I have probably added an unconscious bias or two against Eastern Catholics.

As I said before, 99% of the posters here do not attack the Western Church, but there are a very few that do. I fully realize that a few should not reflect on the whole, but by my nature, I am sometimes quick to generalize. I hope that this has not colored my perception of Eastern Catholicism; after all, it's SUCH a great addition to the Church. My only hope is that Eastern Catholics feel the same way about Western Catholicism, because I certainly do.

ChristTeen287

P.S.- Yes, Amado, if I had it my way all Catholics (indeed, the entire human race) would recognize that the Supreme Pontiff is just that. Surprisingly for some, I think many Eastern Catholics have shown a fiecer loyalty to the Vicar of Christ than have many Latin Catholics.

Dear Amado and ChristTeen,
No, I'm afraid I don't have an agenda. I only spoke up about this because I think people should be aware of how they come across to others. That was the main thing.
And now - as I have seen others write, - back to your originally scheduled programming ...

Dear Christeen287,

How do you get to make all of these posts during school hours?

Axios

Thats OK Communion of Saints...

Discussions get way off track sometimes. Whoever started the discussion can always ask it over again, and hopefully get the answer.

But we are just like talking face to face in a group of friends at church. You start on one topic and that leads someone else to another thought, and you go there, and then no one remebers what you started talking about.

But that is family. :rolleyes:

SLAVA ISUSU CHRISTU!

HI EVERY BUDDY!

its been about, it seems its been like 6 months since i was last on this site. I was Extremely amazed that my Topic "Becomeing a Catholic BYZ/RC" was still open.

Well new news with me is that,

Im being Chrismated on Holy Saturday, and my mom Through the Intercession of the Holy + Theotokos is being Baptized and Christmated in the Byzantine Ruthenian Catholic Church! Im So happy about that. I was praying to the Theotokos for her to be baptized in the Eastern Rites.
In Actuallity it was really not that hard to become a Byzantine Catholic. I just had to go to
ECF, Divine Liturgy, and talk with the OFM Byzantine Brothers and the Priest offten about it and now im being Chirstmated on Holy Satruday. Its Great.

From: Daniel
Though The Theotokos

Wonderful news!

Peace health and happiness for many blessed years!

Dan!

God Grant you Many Years! Ngogaya Lyeta!

Mnogaya...

Anyway, many years, Daniel!

God grant you and your mother many happy and blessed years! Mnohaya i Blahaya Lita!

Or better yet,

Mnohaja i Blahaja L'ita!

Ung-Certez

Or better yet: Congratulations! May God bless you abundantly in the Eastern Churches!

(I'm not a linguist, so I prefer my native tongue.)

ChristTeen287

you say "to MAH to" and I say "to- MAY-to" )

Thanks Guys, for all your congratulations, im more happy for my mom then me, my mom was once an atheist she as come along way spiritually.

I go to (St.Nicholas Byzantine Ruthenian Catholic Church) in Fontana, California, for the person who was asking. =0)

God Bless

From: Dan
Though The Holy Theotokos

Dear Dan,

Happy Old Calendar New Year!

May it be to you and your mother a great Year of Grace in our Lord!

Alex

Thank you every buddy

Gosh, Axios, it seems you've discovered me. I'm really not a 15 year old (now 16) Methodist teen. I'm secretly a middle-aged Latin Catholic who finds it funny to make people believe I'm a Methodist teen.

Just kidding! I make these posts during our lunch break time (11:45 to 12:35) or during my Graphic Arts class (mainly between 1:30 and 3:10). The rest of my posts I make during my home hours.

Why are you suspicious of me? I believe this is the second or third time you've indirectly questioned me over who I am.

ChristTEEN287

Dear Daniel,

Congratulations on your new home!

May you and your mother be blessed with the riches that God has prepared for you there.

Steve

Daniel,
Congratulations! I think it was God's way of testing your sincerity and willingness to endure.
I went through the same thing over 30 years ago.
The wait was well worth it.
Peace.
Stephanos I

Also mega dittos to the Mnohaya and Blahaya Lyitas!!!

Herb