Dear Alex,

Indeed we do love "El Greco."

Just think where we'd be if we couldn't jump, fast schtick, and exercise spiritually! I guess being jesuitical can't be all wrong.

Do you think that the gym that I belong to will mind my paying dues to this other gym?

This religion business can get pretty expensive, don't you think? Especially from the Western perspective. Do you guys have dues, too?

Steve (ever looking for ways to cut costs)

Dear Steve,

You could always join the Free Methodists!

There you can sit in your own pew for free!

Alex

post deleted

I hate to admit it - being a Latin myself but there is quite a lot in Dr John's post that I recognise about my own Parish !

We have a nominal roll of 5000 but Sunday attendance is about 1600 to 2000 till the annual census is taken - and then you wonder where they are coming from. [ Question - should the date of the Census be announced ? ]

The actual active Community in the Parish is very small though and mainly consists of the elderly.

Yes C of S [ on my side of the pond that means Church of Scotland and you most certainly aren't ] I take your point but his post makes you think about things - and that's no bad thing.

Angela

C of S,

I understand your concern, but in defense of Dr. John, he did say "those Westerners who" not "all Westerners." I also think that his point is true that if a Westerner wishes to enter and become a spiritual part of an Eastern parish, he fully understand that he may/will need to immerse himself in Eastern thought.

While we're on this topic, I will take advantage to say that I have sometimes found an amount of anti-Latin/Roman Catholic (anti-Western is a different thing) feelings on this forum. If voicing these obstinate opinions is aimed at driving someone away from the Latin Church and toward the Eastern Churches, I can personally attest that it has done exactly the opposite for me. Everyone should say what they see is wrong with both the Eastern and Western Church, but there is a point to where one gets just plain tacky and rude. 99% of the people on this board rarely (if ever) do this, but there are some few and far between occassions when I feel the Latin Church is being unfairly attacked, and through all that dark muck it's sometimes difficult to see the Light of the East.

ChristTeen287

ChristTeen,
Yes, criticism is good and healthy, absolutely. It is when it's tacky and mean, as you say, that it's not productive. I deleted my post above.
c of s

Dear Christ Teen and Communion of Saints,

I am happy to see that you have a love for our Latin Church and its traditions. You want others to show respect for her, too.

I just wanted to share with you a couple of things I've learned.

One is that some Eastern Catholic posters call practices Latinizaions if they are not seen to be traditionally Eastern and were imposed by Rome (not often), imposed by "occupying" political powers that were Roman Catholic( more frequently), or were imposed upon themselves in an attempt to show that they were not Orthodox (more common). At least this is what I understand from learning here. If I have misunderstood, I am sure that someone will correct me.

At any rate, there is a lot of baggage in the term Latinization! There is a lot of frustration behind its use, a great deal of which is not directed at the Latin Church at all. It appears to be directed at the slow pace at which some of the Churches are returning, if they choose to return, to what have been earlier practices of those Churches.

There may be a few posters who do not speak fairly or who speak uncharitably about the Latin Church. But, I've found that most of the time someone like Alex or the administrator will deal with them pretty effectively.

Dr. John is a very good man. He is a former member of the Jesuit Order and has a good grasp of the Western Church and its foibles as well as its strengths. In my opinion, his postings are usually balanced and he frequently reminds us all about what is truly important.

He comes up with valid insights, as Angela points out. Some of the insights are about the West. It seems to me that sometimes he puts them in ways that come across as putting down the Western churches. Hence my attempt at humor in reply.

I'm glad that you're here and that you post. I hope that you will learn a great deal about our Eastern Christian brothers and sisters and their Churches as well as those of other posters. They will learn from you also.

This forum is a true gem. I am grateful to be a guest here.

Thanks for hearing me out!

Steve

Dear Steve,

You are welcome!

Alex

Thank ya much. I love the Eastern Churches no less.

Yes, there is a lot of baggage and confusion. I absolutely support purging the Eastern Churches of latinizations, but the problem is determining what exactly the latinizations are.

Well, I hope that people aren't getting too upset with the Eastern Churches' leaders about the latinizations. I think too many people are too quick to criticize the Church heirarchy, both Eastern and Western. 99% of them are tryin' their darndest to service to the needs of the faithful, but Satan (as well as sinful human nature) will often interfere with this.

I'm not trying to attack the personal character of these (very few-in-number) posters. No one's perfect (OK OK, Our Blessed Mother...)

I can see that Dr. John is a very good man, and I do not disagree with what he said, as you can see from my post about 3 posts above.

I'm sure Dr. John's knowledge about the Church and his maturity surpass mine a million times over!

Thanks for the input, Steve. Yes, we are truly blessed to have this forum. Maybe if the Catholic and Orthodox Churches' leaders could converse over a forum like this, we'd see reunion much more quickly (quicker?)! God bless.

Pax Domine,
ChristTeen287

Imagine, if you will, that you're a lurker interested in this very subject of Catholicism in its Latin and Eastern forms -- and so you happily log onto this thread. And then you come upon this very negative post on page six. (This is my reply -- I'll try again after reading ChristTeen and Angela and Inawe's posts).

You'd say, "Oh, how enlightening! I never realized RC's don't care about community! I'm sure glad I found this out now, before I looked into one of their conversion programs! Why, I'll be sure to avoid them. They're nothing but card-carrying legalistic, letter of the law automatons! Wow, am I glad to be enlightened about this!" (While Angela says the post reflects real problems in RC life, to me it just appeared like the mean caricature I have just outlined).

Or, you'd say: "Why is this person yelling at RC's to 'leave us alone'? And 'leave the costumes at home!' -- why all this rancor?" It is not really explained, just a few emotionally charged statements -- enough to shock a person into saying, "What in the world is THIS all about?"
(That's what I said!!!)

I have to say that as a newcomer, I can easily place myself in the position of someone who would, on reading the post on page six of Dr. John, say to myself, "I guess the Byzantines would not welcome me." I can assure you that reading his post sure made me think twice!


This is a public place for people to get information. It is good that ChristTeen isn't affected adversely by negative comments about Latin Catholics or the Latin Church; what about the untold numbers of those who ARE, due to what is said here??

I simply thought it might be a good idea for someone who's a newcomer to point something like this out. You guys don't realize how many people might be affected by what you write!!!!

ChristTeen said that the post didn't say "all Westerners." Well, it doesn't matter if he said
"those Westerners who" instead of "all Westerners," since, in this case, it is the tone of the statement that makes a reader feel that it might just as well be an attack on all RC's -- that's sure what it sounded like to me!

Anyway, this isn't supposed to be a place where families are having squabbles and quibbling about things. We are supposed to be helping one another -- aren't we? And perhaps helping to draw others to Christ -- and to church -- not driving them away from church!!!

Just had to try again.

I think we should be aware of how our words might affect others!

Don't you?

Yours in the Communion of Saints,
May all the holy ones intercede for us!!

And where's the starter of this thread, Daniel in the Theotokos/St. Benedict's Rule? He was trying to decide what to do.
I can't recall exactly - he wished to be a Capuchin who was also Byzantine? Was that it? Perhaps he has reported his progress and decision on another thread and I missed it.

Yours
in the Communion of Saints!

I join you in the Communion of Saints:

You are not the first, nor would you be the last, to experience a good shellacking from our Eastern counterparts.

Many have preceded you and some have vanished altogether and never came back. Most RCs, like me, have remained because they crave to learn more about these "weird" Eastern catholics.

After a time, you will discover the beauty of their ritual Churches which certainly adds to the diversity and universality of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

You have encountered in Dr. John a display of the exquisite passion one has in his own particular Church. He is, to my mind, the compleat double Greek Catholic!

Perhaps, I share with Dr. John the fact that we both learned our Latin conjugations from and under the Jesuits. I lament, therefore, his loss to us Romans when he chose to return to his first love: the Greek Catholic Church. But, to each his own and I believe he is doing well at his end.

Wait till you meet the "extreme" advocates of the Ruthenians, the Ukrainians, the Melkites, the Armenians, the Copts, and other sui juris Catholic Churches of the East and you will have a handful (and an earful!).

This Forum (on the Byzantine traditons) is the best there is, bar none.

And I bear the consequences for being here because I have also my own "agenda."

I want these Easterners to discard their "first among equals" mentality as regards the Holy Father. I want them to pay homage and to render obeisance to him as the "Supreme Pontiff" and as the "Universal Pastor" of the worldwide Church.

Care to join me? And before I forget, let's hammer into them that His Holiness, Pope John Paul II, has supreme and direct jurisdiction over all Churches (at least the Catholic ones ), East and West.

And what "latinisms' or "latinizations?"

Welcome to the real world of East-West dialoque.

AmdG

C of S,

I must humbly disagree, I have been affected by the few "attacks" on the Western Church that I have seen. See my own quote, stated a few posts above. I'll reproduce it below.

"Opposite for me" means that the viciousness toward the Western Church has drawn me toward the Western Church, to defend it, and in the meantime, regrettably, I have probably added an unconscious bias or two against Eastern Catholics.

As I said before, 99% of the posters here do not attack the Western Church, but there are a very few that do. I fully realize that a few should not reflect on the whole, but by my nature, I am sometimes quick to generalize. I hope that this has not colored my perception of Eastern Catholicism; after all, it's SUCH a great addition to the Church. My only hope is that Eastern Catholics feel the same way about Western Catholicism, because I certainly do.

ChristTeen287

P.S.- Yes, Amado, if I had it my way all Catholics (indeed, the entire human race) would recognize that the Supreme Pontiff is just that. Surprisingly for some, I think many Eastern Catholics have shown a fiecer loyalty to the Vicar of Christ than have many Latin Catholics.

Dear Amado and ChristTeen,
No, I'm afraid I don't have an agenda. I only spoke up about this because I think people should be aware of how they come across to others. That was the main thing.
And now - as I have seen others write, - back to your originally scheduled programming ...

Dear Christeen287,

How do you get to make all of these posts during school hours?

Axios