We're all at the Ukrainian Catholic Church, eating pyrohy and playing bingo. Sorry that it's too Latin for you.

You are still welcome. I believe that the Church of Josyf Slipyj and Andrew Sheptytsky is the center of both Catholicism and of orthodoxy, the one that is both bridge between and mentor to both branches of the Church.

Have a Blessed St. Francis' Day !!!

John
Pilgrim and Odd Duck

Not Every thing is too latin for me!
I still wear a Brown Scapular and carry roman sacramentals.

From: Daniel
In The Holy+Theotokos

St. Michael's Russian Catholic Church in NYC has no pews, has Vespers every week and is very Eastern regardless of their current canonical situation.

The Ukrainian Catholic Church under Metropolitan +Andrey Sheptytsky and Patriarch +Josyp assisted the Russian Catholics from their inception and offered the omophorion of the Ukrainian Catholic Church. Russian Catholic Exarch Blessed +Leonid Federov worked under the omophorion of Ukrainian Catholic Blessed Metropolitan +Andrey.

We even had Old Believer priests working under Ukrainian Catholic Metropolitan +Andrey. The only Julian (Old) Calendar Eastern Catholic monastery currently in North America is Ukrainian Catholic (Orangeville, Ontario) and has no pews.
"Latinized", huh?

Nothing can compare to St. Elias in Brampton in North America (St. Nicholas in Toronto is good, as is Volodymyr and Olha in Chicago which has Vespers and Utrenya - wait, these are both Ukrainian???). And ex-OCA priest Father David Anderson's Ukrainian Catholic parish in California has Vespers and Matins as well.

I agree with the statements about the Melkites. Don't forget them. There are several Melkite parishes that have Vespers as well and we all owe a great debt to the pioneering work of Archbishops Raya and Zogby as well as Patriarchs Maximos IV and V in not only getting respect from the Latins but also awakening our own people to the riches of our Eastern tradition.

Right now, in Chicago on a Saturday night, you can go to Vespers at three different Ukrainian Catholic parishes, one in Ukrainian, one in English and one mixed. In the Toronto area, even more. Got a city with three Ruthenian parishes offering Vespers on a given Saturday night(I'm talking about parishes, not the seminary)? If there is such a place, I would like to know.

The previous statements about the Ukrainian Catholic church being "more latinized" are off-base. All Eastern Catholic churches have suffered from Latinizations, but all are working to remove these. As these took a long time to develop, they will take time, education and charity to remove.

And if you really want to see latinized, look at the Maronites or Armenians, although especially with the Armenians there are efforts to overcome that stigma.

Christ is Among Us!

When i as talking about latinizations, i was refering to the quickness that the churchs were getting rid of the latinizations. The Ukrainians,
seem to been going kinda slow, on trying to
bring back full eastern traditions.

From: Daniel
In The Holy+Theotokos

Dear Daniel,

I guess the truth is that all parishes are local. Some Ukrainian parishes are almost indistiguishable from Latin Parishes, some are very close to Russian Orthodox, and most muddle along in the middle.

One of the problems faced by the Clergy of the Eastern Churches is that, through poor education of the faithful, many have grown up with the idea that the Roman way is the best way, the "most Catholic". These people are now the backbone of the parish, and are used to certain things done in certain ways.

The Pastor and the Bishop cannot afford (quite literally) to alienate these folks, if they want to keep the parish open and functioning. What is needed is an educational /informational effort over a period of years, perhaps generations, to teach the young the authentic traditions of the Eastern Church.

Interestingly, it seems that even Patriarch Lubomyr leads Stations of the Cross in Lviv during Great Lent.

If he is our leader, how can we say any parish priest or group of parishioners is wrong to have Stations in their Church?

I, for one, being half Polish, do not think "Latin" devotions and practices bring a "stigma" (as Diak implied) upon a Parish or Church. It seemed to me to be a pejorative usage of language against a sister Church.

Latin devotions and practices can only be viewed in light of whether they help the individual parishioners get closer to Jesus.

Have a Blessed Day !!!

John
Pilgrim and Odd Duck

Slava Isusu Christu!

Dear John,

I believe St. Andrew Sheptesky was half Polish and half Ukrainian. I also believe the Ukrainian Catholic Churches run a very wide spectrum. I believe the newer Church constructions are very Orthodox in Liturgy and design. This is because we are
now finally moving in realizing the dreams of St. Andrew Sheptsky and Patriarch Slipyj. That dream being Orthodox in Communion with Rome.

I am always more than amused when people say the Ukrainian Churches are too Latin. I believe Patriarch Slipyj was one of the most Orthodox men in the world at the end of his life. But he also carried Rosary Beads with him and had a great devotion to the Rosary. If Patriarch Slipyj could do this it is more than a legitimate devotion.

In the end, the style of the Church depends on the tastes of the parishners. Those tastes run from Byzantine-Latin to Greek Catholic-Orthodox.

Christ Is Among Us!

I think if its a Byzantine Catholic Church, it should be completley eastern in tradition. Latinization like "Stations, Statues ect..." dont belong in a Byzantine Parish, its just not in the tradition or in the spirituality. The amount of our tradition being used in our eastern parish shouldnt be based on what the parishoners "feel like", but should be based only on the Spirituality and traditions of the christian east, according to the different ethinic jurisdictions.

From: Daniel
In The Holy+Theotokos

StBen,

Should Latin parishes have Eastern icons in their churches? It seems that icons are primarily or wholly Eastern, and thus should not be displayed in Latin parishes.

ChristTeen287

Slava Isusu Christu!

Dear Daniel,

if the Churches did not do what the Parishners wanted how would we still have a Church?

I have never seen a Ukrainian Byzantine Catholic Church with Statues. Everyone I have seen have Icons. I believe the Stations of the Cross John is referring to is temporary. Patriarch Husar is honoring this devotion and not instituting it in the Ukrainian Church.

Christ Teen I have never seen a Latin Church with Icons. Are there actually Icons in the Latin Churches in your area?

"Should Latin parishes have Eastern icons in their churches? It seems that icons are primarily or wholly Eastern, and thus should not be displayed in Latin parishes."

It's sad to see that many modern Roman parishes don't have religious images anymore, no matter if they're icons or statues, they've been removed in many places.
There are certain traditions in the Western Church where there's not a very important veneration of the images (they're used for aesthetical decoration only), but the Spanish tradition has a lot of veneration of images (the term "statues" is not used)and are an important part of the religious culture.
About the icons, there's no doubt, they are a fundamental part of the christian piety in the East. The West would be really enriched if the parishes start to put images and icons again.
The West has always had veneration of icons too, in this case the veneration would be fully restored, but it wouln't be totally "new" (or an "Easternization").
If I had money I would try to bring icons to all the parishes I know, no matter if they're catholic or orthodox. I'm sure that people would feel better in a Church that follows the christian tradition, and not in a "modern" building with pieces of modern art.

Dear Friends,

In the Latin Church, several icons or icon-like images are quite common. Our Lady of Perpetual Help is often displayed. Wherever the Franciscan Friars have a parish, the San Damiano Crucifix is commonly displayed. And there is the image not made by hands of Our Lady of Guadalupe.

Also, many of the images in the Stained Glass windows are icon-like.

In most countries, of course, there is not the type of veneration of icons in the Latin Church that is common in Eastern Churches.

And, of course, modern church architecture has replaced windows with brick walls and eliminated most art.

Have a Blessed Day !!!

John
Pilgrim and Odd Duck

As quoted above:

"In most countries, of course, there is not the type of veneration of icons in the Latin Church that is common in Eastern Churches."

I understand the poster's perspective on this. And I agree. But I think that there is a problem because the understanding of the underlying theology is that of the West and not of the East. We don't really venerate icons. (Yeah, if you're going to be academic about it, then sure.) But, icons are just part of the lived experience of the Church community; it's a gut understanding, and buried deep in the bones. The icon to us Easterns is something that is a "reality" that is truly a "window to the other side". And when one has lived with this all one's life, it's not really explainable in terms of its this-world reality. Latin statues don't even come close to this understanding. Statues are "images"; icons are "direct realities" in this world of what is the reality in the spiritual realm. Thus, we Easterns cringe when we find icons in the West that are treated as if they were statues, i.e., "images". Is it any wonder that we wish to "rescue" icons from potential abuse by Westerns who don't understand their spiritual reality.

Perhaps we're just ignorant children of peasants who have our superstitions inherited from them. But the fact remains, icons to us are not "sacramentals", but they have a real sacramental reality for us believers, and I mean SACRAMENTAL.

Icons are our way of accessing the world of spiritual reality. We stand before them; we contemplate the reality re-presented by the image and we acknowledge that the reality presented in the icon is a reality for the believer who stands before the icon and who venerates it in faith.

Our Latin brethren don't have anything comparable to this graced vehicle of access to the spiritual realm. (Well, veneration of relics is probably the closest since it is understood to connect the believer with the spiritual reality of the relic.)

So, we need to make sure that the theological and spiritual realities of our Eastern peoples is passed on intact. And we need to insure ourselves that our spiritual realities are not abused by those who do not understand anything beyond: "It's pretty".

Blessings!

And, of course, modern church architecture has replaced windows with brick walls and eliminated most art.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dr John:
[QB]As quoted above:

"In most countries, of course, there is not the type of veneration of icons in the Latin Church that is common in Eastern Churches."

I understand the poster's perspective on this. And I agree. But I think that there is a problem because the understanding of the underlying theology is that of the West and not of the East. We don't really venerate icons. (Yeah, if you're going to be academic about it, then sure.) But, icons are just part of the lived experience of the Church community; it's a gut understanding, and buried deep in the bones. The icon to us Easterns is something that is a "reality" that is truly a "window to the other side". And when one has lived with this all one's life, it's not really explainable in terms of its this-world reality. Latin statues don't even come close to this understanding. Statues are "images"; icons are "direct realities" in this world of what is the reality in the spiritual realm. Thus, we Easterns cringe when we find icons in the West that are treated as if they were statues, i.e., "images". Is it any wonder that we wish to "rescue" icons from potential abuse by Westerns who don't understand their spiritual reality.

Perhaps we're just ignorant children of peasants who have our superstitions inherited from them. But the fact remains, icons to us are not "sacramentals", but they have a real sacramental reality for us believers, and I mean SACRAMENTAL.

Icons are our way of accessing the world of spiritual reality. We stand before them; we contemplate the reality re-presented by the image and we acknowledge that the reality presented in the icon is a reality for the believer who stands before the icon and who venerates it in faith.

Our Latin brethren don't have anything comparable to this graced vehicle of access to the spiritual realm. (Well, veneration of relics is probably the closest since it is understood to connect the believer with the spiritual reality of the relic.)

So, we need to make sure that the theological and spiritual realities of our Eastern peoples is passed on intact. And we need to insure ourselves that our spiritual realities are not abused by those who do not understand anything beyond: "It's pretty".

Blessings!

Steven: Some Parishoners want women ordination and clerical celibacy too!

From: Daniel
In The Holy+Theotokos

I kinda feel bad for the Roman Church, it seems that the Roman Church in america is getting to americanized to the culture, the new archeticture of most modern parishs make it look like a Store, or Office Depot some times. The most orthodox roman catholicism in tradition and theology and spiritualtiy ive ever seen in america, is EWTN Roman Catholicism. They are the most traditional latin catholics in the country it seems. What ever happend to Bendiction in the Roman Church that is almost exticnt in areas. I think both Traditons East and Especially West should come back to full traditions of spirituality, theology, art, archeticture.

Dr. I do agree with you on Ikons. I think Roman Churchs should stick with the stations, rosary, holy water fonts, staind glass, statues.

and i think Eastern Churchs should stick with Ikons and every thing that is traditional according to the ethnic Jurisdiction.

From: Daniel
In The Holy+Theotokos