Father Deacon Lance,

I hate to put this question so bluntly but I see no other way of doing it. Prove it! You can argue from silence but I challenge you or anyone else to prove from example that people who won't accept their own heritage in order to attract new people are people we should worry about. Are you really suggesting that Mausoleums are more spiritual and holy than Churches? Prove to us that people really will leave as we slowly move toward integrity.

When I was in the process of converting Father Loya made it clear to me that I was converting to martyrdom. He did not mean that the BC Church was doomed and we would die out with no purpose. What he meant was, and what he made clear to me was, we have a very high calling. We are called to be a witness of unity between East and West. We are called to be authentically the pre-1054 Church as much as possible. This would necessarily mean institutional death at some point. If we ceased to exist because we were faithful to our calling but no one would heed we would become martyrs. If we were faithful and the Church did unite we would cease to exist as a separate entity. This challenge invigorates me. I think you, Tim, and Ung-Certez have far too little faith in our people. I think you may even have far too little faith in God.

Dan Lauffer

I don't think Dan or anyone else is advocating ROCOR style rigourism.

What will it take to fill these old temples anyway?

Why do we have Saturday night liturgies in places that cannot draw 30 people?

If we are to make changes what direction do you suppose we should go in? Perhaps we should introduce musical instruments such as they have in Slovakia, does anyone think that will work?!?

Honestly, change is enevitable. Things will not stay the same, churches are about to close all over the Metropolia, the priests we have are being misused, often serving two parishes at a time with little relief, serving with health problems and far beyond a responsible retirement age and the biggest membership problems reside in the parishes that have done the least to change.

Mistakes have been made and will be made, we are only human. But I would rather take the FDR approach than the Herbert Hoover approach.

Michael

Ung-Certez,

I have no idea what you are writing about. I have no idea what "ultra-orthodox" means. If you have a quibble with Father Loya, have the courage to take it up with him. As I wrote before, however you caricature what we are doing we have one of the most vital youth groups in the Archeparchy. It would do well for you all to stop snivaling about this or that failure and start looking at the Churches that are making great headway. Annunciation isn't the only Church that is reaching new people while at the same time retaining most of her older people, but that is what we are doing.

If you are speaking generally I may or may not agree with you. If your comments are criticisms of Annunciation I challenge you to come and see.

Dan L

Michael,

"I know in my heart that we need to differentiate ourselves and struggle for that, it's the resistance to change that makes old people comfortable and kills parishes."

Amen to this!

I like your contrast between Hoover and FDR. His quote about leadership is still prized by many of us. He simply said, "Do something".

Dan L

What is the point of this gratuitous criticism?

What they have is Slovakia is beautiful fatihful with a great devotion to their church and to each other. Fidelity and devotion that helped them survive a nightmarish century, and begin the new one with overflowing seminaries and churches. If we had the merest morsel of what they have, even including the horror of the rare use of musical instruments (probably mentioned more here than actually occurred there), we would be in paradise.

I was speaking of the Metropolia as a whole. I don't remember stating that I have a problem with Annuciation parish. We must develope a programm throughout the entire Metropolia. We should keep track of our childern when the leave for college.
Maybe start a nationwide Byzantine Catholic campus ministry program?

Ung-Certez

djs,

You may be right about the glories brought by change in the Church of Slovakia. If growth has occured because of this I join them in praise to God. But I would ask, why criticize Annunciation for the change God has wrought in us?

"What they have is Slovakia is beautiful fatihful with a great devotion to their church and to each other. Fidelity and devotion that helped them survive a nightmarish century, and begin the new one with overflowing seminaries and churches. If we had the merest morsel of what they have, even including the horror of the rare use of musical instruments (probably mentioned more here than actually occurred there), we would be in paradise"

Dan L

The 1st millenium Church holds many of the answers for the 3rd millenium Church. As a born and bred HAPPY Latin it isn't about escaping the Novus Ordo Mass or criminal clergy but rather understanding choices that I never knew about.

Scott

I know I said I wouldn't post . . . I'm a weakling, I guess.

I'm afraid I have to agree with Dan. Some of the Latinizations I experienced included the removal of children from liturgy and the disuse of the practice of giving the Eucharist to children. This is disconcerting to anyone wanting to live a valid Eastern Christian family life. If to do so means opposing one's church, one finds oneself in another church.

Fr. Deacon Lance, regarding your comment that "The point being made is that converts should not expect to turn their parish into a 'more Orthodox than the Ecumenical Patriarch' parish no matter how many cradle Byzantines this alienates" and “Restoring tradition is one thing, inserting ROCOR style rigorism into a Byzantine Catholic parish is another,” has a tendency to demonize all converts as being Orthodox “fundamentalists.”

I have found that many "cradle" BCs raise the ROCOR and "more Orthodox than the Orthodox" specter when there is something that obviously should be changed but is uncomfortable or difficult to change.

I will agree that there are a few over-zealous converts, but blaming the woes of the BC Church on them is myopic. I have met cradle Byzantines just as bent on being "more Orthodox than the Orthodox" as any convert. If you wish to discuss those who are trying "to turn their parish into a 'more Orthodox than the Ecumenical Patriarch' parish no matter how many people this alienates," then I don't have a problem. The characterizations in your version of the statement seem to express an "us" vs. "them" ideology. I don't think that will promote what you find on the homepage of Byzcath.org.

"We would like to share our faith in Jesus Christ with you."

I also don't believe that trying to live as an Eastern Christian in an Eastern Christian parish is too much to ask. I'm not talking about kneelers, although I have my issues with them. I'm talking about parishes and/or parishioners that look, act, teach, and live the life of Western Catholicism with a "funny mass" and refuse to recognize what they are by their doing vs. what they claim to be.

Ung-Certez,

I'm willing to let this issue of whether or not you were criticizing Annunciation lie. I suppose it's neither here nor there if one is willing to recognize and be faithful to not only the Pope's call but also to our own integrity. A nationwide campus ministry program is a good idea. But far more than that is needed, wouldn't you agree?

Dan Lauffer

From Scott's report his parish must be a great place to be around. I must visit it sometime.

Cizinec,

I much appreciate your comments. With people like you and Scott our future looks bright.

Dan L

Actually, Dan, my family and I will be recieved into the Serbian Orthodox Church very soon. I'm sure some here will interpret the Serbian part as proof that we were ultra-Orthodox (we were not, but there are worse things). Why we chose the Serbian Church is complicated and personal.

I agree with what your priest taught you about the role and fate of the Eastern Catholic churches. We continue to pray for unity.

Dan,

It will take a while to catch up on this thread, but that gratuitous remark caught my eye and cried out for an immediate response.

And what change are you talking about? From my exprerience thay are very traditional (in the Webster sense not incognitus' Humpty-Dumpty sense). If you have gotten the idea from reading here that every liturgy has a guitar with it, or that the use of musical instruments is common, that, I believe, is a misimpression. I will bet that instrumetns are more common in among Greek Orthodox than Greek Catholics.

I don't criticize Annunciation at all. From all accounts it sounds fabulous, and the fact that the merger worked is amazing. (Your point on three versus two is very wise.)

Dan,

Define heritage or tradition. To the common man these are the things he has known since his childhood and grown up with. Not things the new convert found in a book and now wants to implement. Some traditions need to be restored, others have little consequence. Infant communion, dropping the filioque, having an icon screen, following the rubrics are things I deem important. Removing pews, using curtains, worrying about what color the lention is or whether the censer has bells are things I could care less about nor could the vast majority of the laity.

Certainly a line needs to be drawn. Some restoration is non-negotiable. Does restoration cause some to leave, unfortunately yes I have seen it. Does it attract others, yes. How do we find a balance. What restoration is necessary and what is unnecessarily agitating? What builds up the Church and meets the people's spiritual needs?

For example my parish is an old school Greek Catholic one, however, we have infant communion and dropped the filioque. We stand from Pascah to Pentecost We do not have an icon screen but will someday, but do have two nice mosaic icons. We do have a Sat night Liturgy, for some it is the only one they can attend because of work. Some would get rid it and have Vespers even if it caused people to leave because they wouldn't have a chance to receive the Holy Gifts. I wouldn't do way with it. I would like to make it a Vesperal Divine Liturgy and maybe someday that will happen.

However, as a deacon I do not have the option of choosing who is worth worrying about. I must worry about all, most especially the marginalized and alienated whether it is becasue of Latinization or Easternization.

Fr. Deacon Lance

The point was to get peoples attention (it got yours). It was not intended as an attack on the Slovaks and I am truly sorry you took it that way.

Everything you have said about them is correct of course. They shame us by their success!

Change is inevitable. If we don't manage the changes ourselves with concrete moves in one direction or another the church will blow away in the wind.

Where will we be worshipping 20 years from now?

Michael