Dear Moose et al,

Moose writes:

"I have known more people - Byzantine Catholic and Orthodox - who have wound up in the Roman Catholic Church because it is the American Church, where all are welcome and one does not have to know what pirohi or kibbi are in order to be a member in good standing."

This is the main crux of the matter. I have written in the past of the many young former Byzantine Catholics I have met at Franciscan University. Since I arrived here, I met two former Byzantines who are finishing MA degrees in Theology and Christian Ministry. One of them is the grandson of two priests. I have encountered six other young former Byzantine Catholics who were completing BA degrees in Theology and Catechetics. One of them is studying to become a Roman priest. Although there are two Byzantine Catholic parishes nearby, all of these young people - who are really on fire for Jesus - attend the various Roman parishes in the area, as well as the school's chapel.

Each one of them is completing a degree in Catholic Theology, and plans to devote their lives to serving Christ and the Church. And each one, who was raised in the Byzantine Church, have decidedly abandoned it in favor of the "American" Roman Church. I have asked several of them why they have decided to leave their traditional Church. I have even pleaded with some of them to stay Byzantine - as we really need people with their zeal. Their general response, "The Byzantine Church is too focused on ethnicity. I want to be a part of the universal Church."

Don't get mad at me for repeating this, folks. But these are your kids, and this is what they have told me. There are doubtlessly countless other former Byzantines attending Franciscan University that I haven't met yet. But of these eight or more kids who raised Byzantine Catholic, and were raised in ethnic households, none of them remained Byzantine. They are now passionate, on fire for Jesus Roman Catholics. But there are THREE students at the University who have become committed Byzantine Catholics: myself (I'm Italian), my fiancee (she's Irish), and an hispanic girl! The three of us are the only practicing Byzantine Catholics attending the university - and none of us are ethnic Eastern Europeans. But the ethnic kids, from what I have seen at this school, are very quick to abandon their Byzantine Church.

God bless,
Anthony

However, on the issue of is our church too ethnic and is it turning off potential converts, once again, let us go to the hard data.

The Latin Church in the U.S. is rather static -- few converts and few disaffiliations. Fr. Greeley's research seems to show Roman Catholicism has a staying power far beyond what its critics admit but generally makes few converts.

As for the Byzantine Catholic Church, well, if we are so ethnic no one who is not Rusyn is put off, how to you explain half (80%) of the posters here? Based on folk's testimony, your parishes seem to have more converts than the average Roman Church? So what's the beef?

Anthony. Greetings!!!

Congratulations on getting married to an Irish woman. When I was very young, I remember the reminiscent conversation between my father and "Pappa" Navone, regarding the missegination issue of these marraiges. However, as farmers, we were aware that this sort of thing actually improved the line. My own wife's Irish family had their encounter with the Russians a generation ago. My children are far superior to anyone else in either family.

Many years go, when I was at university, I had a part time live-in job as a "Shabbos Goy". In that job, I had to learn quite a bit of Kashrudt and Hallackah, and history. I was, and still am, impressed by the daily prayer life, culture, and most of the cooking I encountered. I even considered converting, but after a couple of years of searching, I realized that I am a Catholic through and through, Irish, thanks be to God.

My question about your fellow students is whether or not they would have remained Byzanteen if there were no ethnic baggage. Do they still fast and pray?

Also, Do they at all appreciate the gift of their ethnic patrimony? Do they ever lovingly tell stories about their ethnic families?

Is it possible they are merely kicking aside the traces in the university environment?

Michael

>>My question about your fellow students is whether or not they would have remained Byzanteen if there were no ethnic baggage. Do they still fast and pray?<<

This is a valid question. I would suspect that, in addition to the ethnic factor, a large percentage of Byzantines who wind up in Roman Churches are also interested in being part of the dominant Church. This is different than rejecting ethnicity and can be linked to the perception we have allowed to persist that somehow we are "second-class Catholics", with Roman Catholicism being the norm. As long as this notion continues, it will severely limit our ability to bring the Gospel and our Byzantine Tradition to America. This, of course, begs the question regarding how we teach our people that the Gospel and our Byzantine Tradition is not just for us, but for all the world.

Scythian,

"Congratulations on getting married to an Irish woman."

Thank you! We are getting married next week, on August 12. Please keep us in your prayers.

"My question about your fellow students is whether or not they would have remained Byzanteen if there were no ethnic baggage. Do they still fast and pray?"

Oh yeah. I see them all the time, genuflecting in the Roman chapel on campus, praying the Rosary, doing stations of the cross. Almost all of them attend daily Mass at the various Roman parishes in town. To the credit of their Byzantine upbringing, they are some of the most devout students on campus.

However, I want to be clear on a point. I may have not been clear enough on this earlier. I don't think that most of our parishes have a very strong ethnic character. Many of them aren't very ethnic at all. But the REAL PROBLEM is the unspoken rule that our parishes exist only for "our people" - Eastern Europeans. At least in the minds of most visitors, this is the perception. So it isn't so much a problem of parishes emphasizing their ethnicity, all though this does happen. It is more an issue of the general perception that the Byzantine Church exists only for ethnics.

Surprisingly, with very little effort, we can easily put this perception to rest. I think I have outlined a way to do this in my essay, "Seven Simple Ways to Help a Byzantine Parish Grow." You can read it at my web site, with some of my other rantings:
http://byzantine.20m.com

God bless,
Anthony

It was interesting to read all of your replies to this thread. I believe there is a place for non-Eastern Europeans in the Church. However, I don't think that it is accomplished by having negative impressions of those Eastern Europeans who established the Church here in America. These people were very courageous and were blest with a deep faith in our Lord. Praise God that they were! Believe it or not, it was because of them that the Byzantine Church survived and in many areas thrived.

I'm not going to get into a debate on this.... but comments about the ethnic foods is a bit much. We should keep in mind that the money from those ethnic foods built many of our churches!

I was struck with the comments about the Byzantines who are now Roman. Maybe the Lord is calling them to the Roman Rite to bring a deeper spirituality to that Rite. Or maybe like me, sometimes one goes in search of a "home" and like the prodigal son, returns to the home of the Father. I have been able to experience the best and believe me the worst of both rites. And I have found the Lord waiting for me in both. This is a precious gift He has given me. One that I hold tenderly.

My last point, I liked the story about the man who became Orthodox and then started telling everyone what they were doing wrong. Sometimes we tend to do that, especially with the older members. I'm experiencing that now. A new member of the Byzantine Church (Roman Rite) is alienating many in the parish because of this, "I know the Byzantine Church better" attitude. It grieves my heart to see her admonish and "try to set straight" the older members of the parish. My prayer is that the Lord will touch her heart and show her the damage this is doing to the parish family.

Thanks for letting put my 5 cents in!

the Lord's peace......

Boy, are you right!! This is a serious problem today in the Orthodox Church in America. They've got all sorts of folks who are coming in who study the texts and then become the self-appointed benchmark for the true tradition who chastise the older folks for being hybrids. An Orthodox friend of mine who was being lectured on what it means to be a true Orthodox came quite near pushing a dyad of these folks down the front steps of the OCA cathedral in his home town. (He's a Russian, of high class family which includes a general, who was an advisor to Czar Alexander II.)

But for those of us who were born here, we are very happy to claim our ethnic heritage(s), but we are very aware that the spiritual gift we have been given must absolutely be shown to all who come to us, without linking it to an ethnic identity. This is Christianity.

So, may the Lord be ever mindful of our spiritual ancestors who ran food festivals, ran 50/50 raffles, and who carried the hods of bricks to build the church building. To be true to them, we must pass on the faith of the Gospels of Christ at the same time recognizing the times and places they came from. Their memories will be eternal as long as there are souls who come to pray.

Blessings!!! (To you and to your forebears)

[This is a serious problem today in the Orthodox Church in America. They've got all sorts of folks who are coming in who study the texts and then become the self-appointed benchmark for the true tradition who chastise the older folks for being hybrids.]

As an Orthodox, I don't know if I would call it a serious problem. But it is there. We have this ex Lutheran turned Orthodox who showed up at our parish for the summer. In fact he was a professor at Oral Roberts University for seven years. So far ORU has given us eight Orthodox priests! And eight ORU students just converted a few months ago in the Anatiochian parish in Tulsa. I understand that some of their parents are demanding their money back from ORU! But I'm getting off the subject.
I spent the whole summer with this ex Lutheran trying to explain that Orthodoxy is not just a religion of rules & regulations that one group of people uses to brow another group.
He has a thing about clean shaven priests. As if somehow a priest is judged by the length of his beard. I told him I would take a clean shaven priest with a kind soul, gentle heart, and spiritual attitude, over a long bearded tyrant any day.

An incident that happened to my grandmother prompted me to respond to this thread.

We have a Roman Catholic sister who has been attending my grandmother's church. (I'm not sure if this sister has changed to become a Byzantine). One day my grandmother and sister were discussing the icon screen and some other Byzantine practices and sister began "teaching" my grandmother about the Byzantine rituals. My grandmother responded that she was raised in the Byzantine faith and was aware of the rituals and the meanings behind them. Siste ignored her and continued to "teach". Sister then told my grandmother that the parishioners were not "true" Byzantines because they were not following "true" Byzantine practices and traditions. Sister continued by saying the size of the altar was wrong and the candles were in the wrong place and that people were not singing the Divine Liturgy and Vespers correctly....you get the picture. Needless to say, my grandmother was very upset. (She's in her 70's).

I suggested she speak to the pastor about Sister's commments. Well, to make a long story short, she did and he was very supportive of Sister! He agreed with everything sister said and told my grandmother that he also saw that the parish was not practicing the "true" Byzantine way! I asked her what he meant by that, but she told me that she was too shocked to ask.

The last time I visited my grandmother's church, I noticed many changes....candles were moved, a curtain was placed behind the Royal Doors, the altar was changed. But the biggest change was in the people. A lot of the joy that I loved so much about the Church was missing!

When we got home, my grandmother told me that she is thinking about leaving her "childhood" church. She said she feels like an outsider. That the "new" Byzantines have gotten what they wanted.....HER CHURCH!

Please pray for her and her parish. I would hate to see her leave.

Yikes! This is really unfortunate. While I'm sure that the nun and the priest were well intentioned in trying to recover the traditional, historical elements of the Byzantine-Constantinopolitan tradition and to bring them to the people, it appears that they were both incredibly unkind. They seem to have forgotten that the people ARE the Church. This Romaniak mindset "we clergy - smart; you people - uneducated/stupid" doesn't belong among our peoples.

If you're going to re-instate or revive older traditions, you've GOT to spend as much time as necessary to explain what and why you are doing this. For many of the older people, waaaaaay back in their memories, they'll recall their grandmothers or grandfathers talking about this or that old custom. This is the way to do it: link up with their memories and gradually introduce one or the other practice. And for heaven's sake: EXPLAIN!

(By the way, I've got a couple of trenchcoated friends up North who for $200 bucks will "come and explain it" to these guys. No questions asked. Let me know. )

LOL LOL

I may take you up on that offer!!!!

Well Anthony, I am an American Roman Catholic with mostly Irish ancestry but with some German, Slavic, English, and some remote Spanish Morrocan heritage. I too like the Byzantine liturgy but must remember its purpose. It is to offer Russian Orthodox a way to celebrate their unique method of worship to Jesus while being in communion with home.

You feel second class because you allow yourself to feel second class. Nobody said you were. You should also remember you are there to uphold the mission of the church.

I am curious, do your wife and children attend too ?

Eamon wrote:
+++++++++++++++++++
I too like the Byzantine liturgy but must remember its purpose. It is to offer Russian Orthodox a way to celebrate their unique method of worship to Jesus while being in communion with home.
++++++++++++++++++++

'scuse me?????

Eamon, would you also say that the purpose of the Novus Ordo Mass is to offer Latin-Rite Catholics a way to celebrate their unique method of worship to Jesus while being in communion with home?


Just wondering...

Sharon


Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor, sinner and definitely not Russian Orthodox
sharon@cmhc.com

Maybe the model we are all searching for here is the Xian family. Normatively, couples marry, perform the martial act and produce children, who they are responsible for raising. This is the model of family life.

Non-normative situations arise. Adoption, abandonment, special needs, etc, sometimes because of difficulties in the family , sometime for legitimate and non-adversaial reasons.

It is normative that the faith tradition that gave you faith raises and nutures you. That doesn't mean that those who are non-normative are second class. It also doesn't mean that switching parents should be the social model.
K.

Anthony,

In my husband's family church, St. John the Baptist Greek Catholic Church in Lyndora, Pa I am told there are many converts and new parishoners from various ethnic backgounds mostly through marriage. Every sping they have a spaghetti dinner whose sauce and meatballs are among the best I have tasted and as I am half Italian I am an expert. They are made by a woman of Italian descent who married into that church and rite. They also make the best halupi and haluski I have ever tasted outside of my sister-in-law of course. Maybe they just have great cooks in Butler.

I got married by the priest I wanted and we raised our children in the church we wanted. I had people yelling at me and guess - what they are out of my life now.

Franciscian U is a great place. God bless.

Barbara