Dear friends,

The folks on the message board over at byzantines.net have been arguing with me over ethnicity. They believe that the Byzantine Catholic Chuch exists for Eastern Europeans, and that the Byzantine Church should preserve the Rusyn ethnic identiy.

I am of Italian / French ancestry. But like many persons of my generation, I consider myself to be American first. Really, I don't have any signficant ties to the "Old World."

So, since I am not a Slav, is there a place for me in the Byzantine Church? Or should I just pack up my bags and go back to the Universal and non-ethnic Roman Church, from which I came?

I'm sorry if I sound frustrated. I love the Byzantine Catholic Church. But I can sometimes be made to feel like a second-class member because I'm not a Rusyn. This really hurts, because I love the Byzantine Tradition.

God bless,
Anthony

Does it work that way in your own parish? If not, I wouldn't worry about what Kurt et al have to say at the other board. You have to remember that we have been having an ongoing discussion there for at least 6 months about ethnicity, culture and the eastern church. Kurt has strong views, I have strong views (that differ from his) -- but the reality is that it's a bulletin board for exchanging viewpoints and ideas - it's not a church.

If you feel welcome in your local Byzantine parish, then I wouldn't worry about these discussions very much. If you feel less than welcome there, try addressing it with your priest. If that doesn't avail, try another parish -- even in a different Eastern Catholic jurisdiction, if necessary.

In Christ,

Brendan

Brendan,

Thank you for your reply.

You wrote:

"I wouldn't worry about what Kurt et al have to say at the other board... If you feel welcome in your local Byzantine parish, then I wouldn't worry about these discussions very much."

This really puts things back in perspective for me. My fiancee and I have been made to feel very welcome in our parish, and in almost every other parish that we have visited. As a matter of fact, the folks on this message board have been wonderful with me also.

Just because a few very vocal folks at byzantines.net say disturbing things, I shouldn't let them get to me. Their kind are dying out anyways... almost all of the younger Byzantines that I know consider themselves Americans before they are Rusyns.

I feel better now. God bless,

Anthony

P.S. Please say a quick prayer for me.

Byzantines don't say quick prayers. Just be patient;we ARE praying!


In Christ our True God who raised Lazarus from the dead.


PS-As far as I am concerned and according to the realities of my daily life, Byzantine and Catholic are, if not linguistically,they are spiritually, synonyms. I cannot separate the two without "separating" my soul. I tried to be Orthodox. I was married to a wonderful Greek woman for almost fourteen years and I believed I could make the transition successfully - I was very wrong. I now know that I can never be RC or EO; I must be myself. That is why many of us stay within the BC fold. It is our home. Leaving is futile and destructive.


Part of that attachment certainly is ethnic. Those of us who share in that ethnic soul-force should nurture it by "adopting" those who come to us from other ethnic or even racial backgrounds. Rusyns are gifted with customs that are "user friendly" for all people because they are so positively human. All can share in these gifts. To borrow from the Spanish: "Nuestra iglesia es su iglesia." (Our church is your church.) Besides, we need the infusion of new blood. Our survival depends on it.

I am what I am and I don't allow pharisees of the Roman, Orthodox, or Byzantine varieties define what I am or how I live my Catholic Byzantine life. Christ gave His life that we might be free; slaves to no man or group of men, and certainly not slaves to circumstances. There is no reason at all for you to leave the Byzantine Catholic Church. We need you.

In Christ our True God who raised Lazarus from the dead.

[This message has been edited by LazarusDos (edited 07-21-2000).]

[This message has been edited by LazarusDos (edited 07-21-2000).]

Since my name was invoked here, let me make some clarification of my views. Anthony says he feels welcome in the parish he has chosen to be a member of. That is good. I would think that would be the begining and end of the discussion.

I don't believe the Byzantine Catholic Metropolia exists for Eastern Europeans nor do beleive that the Metropolia has any particular obligation to preserve Rusyn ethnic identity in the U.S.

I am also not particularly pleased to be the butt end of a comment like "Their kind are dying out anyways." I think it lacks Christian charity. (and my health is quite good, anyway)

Now Anthony, you had the gift of the Catholic faith before you began attending a Ruthenian Byzantine Church. Having already received the greatest gift in the world, the Byzantine Church gave you nothing new other than a different human and earthly ritual expression and human community. You clearly find value in that, which is wonderful. Use it to your best spiritual and social advantage.

But why the need to suggest to others that they need to leave their "Old World ways" at the Church door? I don't beleive the Metropolia should take any affirmative action to either preserve or to cleanse our parishes of their social characteristics. But, what is, is.

I have spent my entire life avoiding the debate on my nationality. When asked if I am Rusyn, Carpatho-Russian, Ukranian, Slovak, Ruthenian, Lemko or Uhgro-Carpathian, I answer yes. You notice here and elsewhere I have never raised this topic.

I will tell you this, a point I think you do not understand. I have been at a Roman Mass about a dozen times in my life. I have never witnessed a celebration of the Roman Rite Liturgy fo the Hours, Baptism, First Communion, Chrismation, or Ordination. I actually would at some point like to participate in the Roman Holy Week services, particularly the Easter Vigil, which I have read about but never exposed to.

I have no philosophical belief that the Byzantine tradition is superior to any other, just as I do not believe my nationality is superior to any other. If I worked on it slowly, I might be successful, but I do beleive I am part of that 99% of Catholics for whom suddenly having to change patrimonies would be a difficult feat. I would prefer to continue my life in the patrimony I have been inculurated in, for that is the purpose of patrimonies.

I appreciate the fact that the Catholic Church carefully guards the rights of its members to life in the patrimony they are inculturated in. That is why we try so hard to support our Byzantine young people in our rite. That is why as we migrate, the particular ritual chruches follow with us.

You are clearly a special and exceptionable person in that your human nature gives you the rare ability to develop or adopt a second patrimony. But given that you have abilites others of us likely lack, I would hope you could have a little more sympathy and respect for the rest of us. I am sure you would find in the Roman Church, there are Spanish language or Polish ethnic parishes you cannot just walk in a feel totally included. So given the fact you are welcome and happy in your own parish, why do feel the need to lecture other Byzantine parishes on their ethnic character?

Kurt,

I do not support "ethnic cleansing," and I think that the Rusyn traditions are pretty cool and actually practice some of them.

Your write:

"So given the fact you are welcome and happy in your own parish, why do feel the need to lecture other Byzantine parishes on their ethnic character?"

First of all, the message that sparked all of this over at Byzantines.net was my defense of our esteemed Metropolitan Judson. "Rusyn American" posted a message which said some very cruel and unkind things about Metropolitan Judson, whom I deeply admire, and I instinctively jumped to his defense. He is my bishop, and I love the guy. He has welcomed my fiancee and myself into the fold, and treats us like pure gold. If I stand in judgement for defending my shepherd, so be it.

The message that I wrote stated my support for "Metropolitan Judson's program of de-ethnicization." This was, in hindsight, a poor choice of words on my part. Apparently you and several others thought that I was advocating "ethnic cleansing," as you put it. I am not. But I do agree with Metropolitan Judson that the Byzantine Catholic Church MUST BECOME a Church for persons of all ethnic backgrounds. Overemphasizing a parish's ethnicity, which does happen, is very unwelcoming to non-Rusyns. When we visit such parishes, we know that we would never fit in. And like it or not, the reality is that almost all of the young people in hyper-ethnic parishes do eventually join the Latin parish down the street.

For the record, I would not classify St. John Chrysostom's in Pittsburgh nor Holy Ghost im McKees Rocks as "hyper-ethnic parishes." I have visted both, and had great experiences. But do visit a little mining town or two in Western Pennsylvania, where the parish has no icon screen nor any canonical icons, and the parishioners suspiciously ask all visitors what their last name is. Such a parish is surely more ethnic than it is Byzantine!

A lot of us on here complain that the Roman Catholics don't take us seriously. I can tell you one of the major reasons why: to the average Roman Catholic, the "Byzantine rite" is a special place for ethnic Slavs, and it bears no real importance for the universal Church. If we as Byzantine Catholics desire a place of importance in the universal Church, we must make an effort to become universal ourselves! I dream of a Byzantine Catholic Church that will one day serve the spiritual needs of millions of Africans, Asians, Hispanics, and even some American Indians. So does Metropolitan Judson.

Kurt, I bear you no ill will and wish you only the best. This is a philosophical difference, and (hopefully) not a personal one. I do not intend for this to degenerate into personal insults as the discussion between you and Stuart unfortunately has.

God bless,
Anthony

Anthony,

(Pretend for a moment that I'm tall enough to look down my nose at you - mebbe I'm standing on a box, while I draw myself up with a pompous sniff and say..)

"MY grandparents came from the CARPATHIANS!"

(Yeah, and they were all Jews, too.)

God BLESS Vladyko Judson! It's not going to be easy. People quite naturally brought their ethnic culture with them on the boat to America, and into the Church that was their refuge. It's been so tied up with the Church that it's sometimes hard to differentiate "sacramental" from "ethnic custom" anymore. (Look at the Slavonic/English debate!) But last time I looked, we don't baptize in the name of the Pysanki, the Holupki and the Buttered Pierogi - even tho' there are places which make ya wonder....

Theoretically our churches are organizations dedicated to spreading the Good News of Jesus Christ, who COMMANDED us to share the faith with ALL nations. Nowhere in scripture does it say that the Gospel is only to be shared with those of a specific language or culture group. In fact, if you remember the events of the first Pentecost, you'll recall that the Holy Spirit spread the word to ALL present, in their own languages.

Roll ahead to the time of Cyril & Methodius. Following the type of logic that the "Slavs Only" crowd holds to, Sts. C & M should have refused to come to the backwoods of the Rus' in the first place. If did come, they should have refused to catechise, baptize and admit to worship anybody who wouldn't learn Greek first. Obviously they didn't have the benefit of this perspective - they were foolish enough to translate, and open the doors to all comers.

If the Holy Spirit wants you, who is anyone else to say you no?

(But then, I'm not "nas" either.....)

Cheers from the Jew,

Sharon

Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor & sinner
sharon@cmhc.com

As one who grew up 100% Ukrainian, this is a special topic for me.

I have found that as one moves from east to west in the US, the concentration of ethnic groups rapidly deminishes. In my neck of the woods, the Pacific Northwest, a person of a single ethnic background is becoming something of a novelty.

Eastern churches of all varieties must face the demographic facts. Americans of a single ethnic background are a threatened species and are rapidly heading for the endangered species list with every passing generation. Outside of immagrants, extinction is not far behind.

And it isn't ending there.

As a child, a mixed race couple was something to talk abount. In the PNW (don't know about your area) it doesn't even merit a second thought. In the next 50 years, single race Americans will be on the threatened list. Face it Cabalasians like Tiger Woods are the future. (CAcasian-BLack-ASIAN by his own statement as to his race)

Churches that were previously ethnically oriented must either deal with this. To choose to ignore this is to choose suicide.

If the Eastern Churches are to bring the gospel to the non-christian, (and there are plenty of them out there. 2/3 of the folks in the PNW never darken the door of any church, and many of those haven never been in one in their lives)

Do we want their souls on our conscience because we did not bring them the gospel? Or we made them feel unwelcome? How many will never learn of the riches of the East [Catholic or Orthodox] because they figured "I can't go there, I'm not [insert ethinic group here]." Isn't there a duty to do better?

Andy

Anthony,

First of all, as I am sure you now know, the post re: Metropolitian Judson was a joke. he never said those things; it was a parady of the press release I previously posted.

Also, I wish you would withdraw your statement where you appear to be gleefull over what you believe is my coming death. ("Their kind are dying out anyways..."). I don't think rejoicing at the death of one's adversaries is very Christian.

I've been to the little mining towns in Pennsylvania you mention. I wil tell you my impression. It would be nice if every parish and mission was totally welcoming to every biritual visitor that comes their way. However, these places are hardly tourist meccas. If you go to the Roman parishes, they are just as "ethnic" (Polish, Bohemian, Italian, etc.). And sadly, thank to shiping all of our jobs overseas ("free trade") these towns are dying and cutesy "Orthodox" liturgies are not going to bring them back. Lastly, you would be surprised how many unevangelized "ethnics" live in these places.
Further, I think your concern as to how the Roman Catholics view us is not much of a concern to those of us who are not Latin. we wish our Latin brothers and sister well; we help when asked and as our abilities allow; but ultimately its their duty to educate themselves as to the universality of the Church. Certainly heaven is full of Roman Catholic who died never knowing of the existance of the Eastern Catholic churches.

Anthony, I've never doubted your good will or sincerity. But I will tell you this. You will develop a better understanding of the Eastern Catholic Church by associating with those who received the gift of Catholic faith through the Byzantine patrimony (and this is NOT the same thing as being ethnic Rusyn) than from those who had the gift of Catholic faith and subsequently developed an interest in the externals of Byzantine Christianity.

Kurt

>>>Anthony, I've never doubted your good will or sincerity. But I will tell you this. You will develop a better
understanding of the Eastern Catholic Church by associating with those who received the gift of Catholic faith
through the Byzantine patrimony (and this is NOT the same thing as being ethnic Rusyn) than from those who
had the gift of Catholic faith and subsequently developed an interest in the externals of Byzantine Christianity.<<<

That would be me, Anthony. I received the gift of the Catholic faith directly through the Byzantine Patrimony. So you can rely on me (and Sharon) to steer you straight.

New Byzantine Catholics need to associate themselves with all types of Byzantine Catholics.

Association with new converts (under 10 years) helps show them the immediate path to follow in steeping themselves in all things Byzantine. It is from this group that they acquire a special zeal.

Association with established converts (of 10 or more years) will provide them with a solid role model of someone who has come into the Church and 'learned the ropes'. This group tends to have moved from everything being new to everything being comfortable. They have asked most of their questions and have usually discarded any baggage they have brought from other traditions. After 30 years or so many of these people develop a spirit that is even more solid than those who grew up in the Faith.

Association with cradle Byzantines is the most important, particularly with cradles who can discern between the Byzantine patrimony and the ethnic patrimony that is part of our Church. These are the people you watch when someone invites you to "Come see how we pray!" These are the people who live the Faith and are, at times, simply not aware of exactly why (although if you asked they would stop, think a minute, and then tell you in plain words). Our parishes are full of grandmas and grandpas who - despite some external forms that are Latin - are true possessors of an authentic spirit. But one must also be aware that there are cradles who take everything for granted and who never develop the spirit of Byzantium.

"We have gifts that differ according to the favor bestowed on each of us. [Each gift] should be used in proportion to his faith." Romans 12:6

>>>New Byzantine Catholics need to associate themselves with all types of Byzantine Catholics.<<<

Never mind new Byzantine Catholics--ALL Byzantine Catholics need to associate with ALL other types of Byzantine Catholics. One of the more insidious effects of uniatism as a model of Church governance is that it creates a stovepipe model for the Eastern Churches. We are in communion with our own hierarchs, who in turn are in communion with the pope. On the other hand, there is very little contact at a hierarchical or parish level between the different Byzantine Catholic Churches--we look to our own. Period. Thus, Ruthenians associate with Ruthenians, Ukrainians with Ukrainians, Melkites with Melkites, etc. This is symbolized by the fact that while we commemorate our bishops and our archbishop/patriarch, as well as the pope, we do not commemorate the heads of the other particular Churches with which we are supposed to be in communion.

For this reason, for a while now I have been mulling over the idea of an Association of Byzantine Catholic Faithful, which would be comprised of members of all the Byzantine particular Churches, to deal with pastoral and evangelical matters, as well as to extend the bonds of fellowship beyond our own little sandboxes.

I would be interested in the opinions of others regarding this idea.

You mean those who don't preach the doctrine, "Sine pieroghium nulla sallus"?

Y'all can just cross me off the list of "role models." Come December 19th (Old Calendar feast of St. Nicholas) I'll be 18 years in the Church. This qualifies me to stumble and fall FREQUENTLY, and to make lots of noise in Church. Oh - and to be FIRST among sinners. A well placed elbow helps.


BTW, per Stuart's observation - one of the coolest things about the "East Toward Carmel" retreat this past weekend was the mix of folks we had, with clergy including Orthodox, & Ukrainian, Ruthenian and Roman Catholic - and Ukrainian, Ruthenian, Maronite & Roman Catholic layfolk.

Cheers,


Sharon

Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor & sinner
sharon@cmhc.com


[This message has been edited by Sharon Mech (edited 07-27-2000).]

Dear Sharon,

Thank you for the encouraging message.

Interestingly, if things had gone the way that some of the earliest Christians would have liked, you would be the ONLY one here who would be a Christian. As you recall from Acts of the Apostles, and Paul's Epistles, many of the early Christians believed that only ethnic Jews could embrace Christianity. Peter and Paul bringing the Gospel to "those Gentiles" was a scandal at first!

Other early Christians were somewhat more tolerant, and believed that Gentiles could become Christian IF they adopted all of the Jewish customs and traditions (you know, started eating Pierogi and praying in Slavonic). St. Paul vigorously opposed this also, and instead brought the Gospel to the Gentiles in the context of their own culture. He rocked the ethnic boat!

St. Paul even stood up to the mighty Pope Peter I and uttered these famous words:

"We ourselves, who are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners, yet who know that a man is not justified by Rusyn ethnic traditions but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ, and not by eating holupki and buttered pierogi, because through ethnic cuisine no one can be justified." - Galations 2:15-16 (Non-Rusyn Byzantine Convert Revised Standard Version)


Kurt,

I apologize if it appeared that I was gleefully hoping for your early demise. That was not my stated intention. I did not even mention your name. Rather, I was asserting the fact that those who believe that it is the mission of the Byzantine Church to preserve the Rusyn culture are diminishing in number, while an increasing number of young people are more interested in being a Church for persons of all racial and ethnic backgrounds.

May God grant you many years in peace, health, and happiness.

Also, I didn't become Byzantine Catholic because of external bells and whistles. Rather, I was drawn in by the rich spirituality, which soothes my aching soul. I am not a "biritualist." I am of one ritual only - Byzantine. I was born from a mixed Protestant marriage, passed through the saving waters of the Roman Catholic Church, and then found myself instinctively drawn to Byzantine Catholicism. I have been here for three years now, and readily admit that I still have a lot more to learn.

God bless you,
Anthony

[This message has been edited by Dragani (edited 07-27-2000).]

>>Never mind new Byzantine Catholics--ALL Byzantine Catholics need to associate with ALL other types of Byzantine Catholics. <<

This is, of course, obvious and has always been my experience. I am sorry that Stuart does not experience this. I was, however, directing and limiting my comments to those who are new in the Church.

I would add two things to my previous post:

1) All people should have an elder in the faith to turn to for guidance. This need not be a formal spiritual director or even a formal arrangement. Any levelheaded long time Byzantine with a decent prayer life will usually do just fine.
2) As I have noted many times before, the primary catechesis we undergo is in the liturgy. We learn from both the actions of others as well as from singing our theology. One cannot overstate the importance of praying the Divine Services.


>>Y'all can just cross me off the list of "role models."<<

Sharon hits something vitally important. None of us is, in a sense, worthy of being a role model. We should be careful of those who come offering advice. We should look to our parish community to see the status of any person that we might consider as either a role model or as an elder to guide us. All of us - cradle and convert - live the same life. We take a step and fall down in sin. Though the Sacramental Mysteries we are cleansed and fortified to take another step along our journey.


In one sense, those who are converts can and should offer a special gift to their parishes. When those who are super-ethnic ask why you are there you can remind them that hidden behind the basket of pirohi and kielbasi (or kibbi and baklava) is the fullness of the Gospel. Perhaps the converts can gently help some of the cradles to remove the basket covering the Light and place it in a more appropriate place.