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Re: Byzantine Vocations #88265 10/26/02 02:09 PM
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Joe T Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by NDHoosier:
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Originally posted by bisantino:
[b]With the eparchial priests of Van Nuys (that is ordained for the eparchy of Van Nuys) having last names such as Hernandez, O'Brien, and Burnette you could draw your own conclusion.
What do you mean? These are Anglicized slavic names! You know - Hernandovich, Obrienov, and Bernetski! biggrin [/b]
NDHoosier,

I guess Bisantino John didn't know the true history of those names. :p

Re: Byzantine Vocations #88266 10/26/02 02:13 PM
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Joe T Offline
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Originally posted by NDHoosier:
Here's another thing to consider -

How do the Ruthenian and Ukrainian Churches view former Latins (canonical transfer concluded) who might be drawn to the priesthood. No arguments about dodging celibacy - I'm only considering in this post those candidates who would embrace celibacy in the Ruthenian and Ukrainian Churches.
NDHoosier,

You can contact my pastor, Protopresbyter Dr. Bryan Eyman (originally Eymanovic? biggrin ) and ask him.

http://www.ncweb.com/org/lcbcc/

Re: Byzantine Vocations #88267 10/26/02 03:16 PM
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Jim Offline
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An interesting thread, indeed! Some observations:

I expect everyone here already knows that marriage for priests (or not) is a small t tradition that can be changed by the hierarchy of the church. There are orthodox seminary graduates that delay being ordained so that they can marry first, after finding a wife who will also make a suitable matushka for parish life. The eastern jurisdictions are understanding of the candidate's needs, especially since his wife also has a role to play in parish life. They know that it is not easy to attract men to the priesthood in the first place, let alone a priesthood that has to be celibate. Among the Ruthenians, the memory of a married clergy is very much alive, and continues to interfere with vocations.

Why not start by recognizing the need to develop the life in Christ of men in our congregations, regardless of age, marital status, economic status, and education? Prayer, fasting, study, and almsgiving and charitable activities in general are needed from all of us who declare ourselves to be of the True Faith. A structured program that works to grow believers sounds more realistic as a starting place to me. The vocations may come or not, but perhaps more men will try to increase their dispassionate discernment with the help of God, His Saints, and his fellow sojourners who accompany him on the journey.

Re: Byzantine Vocations #88268 10/26/02 04:54 PM
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Maximus Offline
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Originally posted by Jim:
An interesting thread, indeed! Some observations:

I expect everyone here already knows that marriage for priests (or not) is a small t tradition that can be changed by the hierarchy of the church. There are orthodox seminary graduates that delay being ordained so that they can marry first, after finding a wife who will also make a suitable matushka for parish life. The eastern jurisdictions are understanding of the candidate's needs, especially since his wife also has a role to play in parish life. They know that it is not easy to attract men to the priesthood in the first place, let alone a priesthood that has to be celibate. Among the Ruthenians, the memory of a married clergy is very much alive, and continues to interfere with vocations.

Why not start by recognizing the need to develop the life in Christ of men in our congregations, regardless of age, marital status, economic status, and education? Prayer, fasting, study, and almsgiving and charitable activities in general are needed from all of us who declare ourselves to be of the True Faith. A structured program that works to grow believers sounds more realistic as a starting place to me. The vocations may come or not, but perhaps more men will try to increase their dispassionate discernment with the help of God, His Saints, and his fellow sojourners who accompany him on the journey.
Jim says: "his fellow sojourners who accompany him on the journey."

Rome in it's greatness understood this concept, fundamental to building any great society. A citizen is not an island, he/she is effected/affected by his/her surroundings. Especially if that citizen hasn't even reached the age of thirty.

Just the other day, in this city, we had a catholic high school kid - active in his church - participate in the murder-for-car-rims of another young man - refusing to give up his car. I say societial values are winning out (non-Christian values that is). Now two young lives are destroyed, one in a casket another going to prison. Vocations to the Priesthood don't come out of materialistic pop cultures not wanting to work for the extras they would like to have. Not grasping the value of life and the value of car rims.

I would caustion this marraige before ordination though. Fine have a married Priesthood. But the talk I have long heard on this forum treats marriage to a woman as though it is a sole means to sex and compnay - love can come later if ever. Personally I think it is important to love the person you marry. How is it seminarian students will find it so easy to find someone they love prior to ordination when a large portion of people in the world find it hard and trying to find that person special to them? At one time I understand parents use to arrange marriages, so the seminarian probably had less to worry about -concerning finding a wife - then the average young seminarian today? But really, women, wives, should not be looked at as a sole means for are selfish sexual appitite and are lust for company. Nothing wrong with sexual want or company, but love should be involved in this too. Many here talk as though one can just go out and get a wife. Certainly one can find some woman to marry, many 30'ish women with 3 or 4 kids by one or more man that is not in the picture, are at a time in their life where a committed guy to them is appealing. But is this the woman you feel is good for you now as a seminarian? I don't answer that or make any judgements on anyone. I just put forth the question.

Justin

Re: Byzantine Vocations #88269 10/26/02 08:27 PM
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Perhaps I should go a little further, and say that a married clergy has been the norm in eastern orthodox jursidictions, and still is. Celibacy is required only of bishops and monastics there. Once ordained, however, eastern orthodox clergy are not permitted to marry if they are to retain their ministry. All the above can be applied to Russians, Antiocheans, Greeks, Serbs, Roumanians, and so on. The Ruthenians in America were prohibited from continuing married clergy back in the 1930s. Prior to that, their clergy could be married like their orthodox colleagues. In eastern customs a priest's wife usually has a central ministry within the parish herself involving children, ministering to the sick and the needy, and support services for the altar, among other things. Marriage is viewed as a path to holiness.

Re: Byzantine Vocations #88270 10/26/02 09:37 PM
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Isn't celibacy viewed as being "holier" than marriage is, in Eastern Catholicism and Orthodoxy. I know it is in Roman Catholicism.

ChristTeen287

Re: Byzantine Vocations #88271 10/26/02 10:14 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by Joe T:
Quote
Originally posted by NDHoosier:
[b]
Quote
Originally posted by bisantino:
[b]With the eparchial priests of Van Nuys (that is ordained for the eparchy of Van Nuys) having last names such as Hernandez, O'Brien, and Burnette you could draw your own conclusion.
What do you mean? These are Anglicized slavic names! You know - Hernandovich, Obrienov, and Bernetski! biggrin [/b]
NDHoosier,

I guess Bisantino John didn't know the true history of those names. :p [/b]
I guess my own surname is hispanicized, Mont-Alvo, "white mountain", since this must refer to the snow capped Carpathian mountains. On my mother's side the family is gallego, i.e. from Galicia. biggrin

John Montalvo

Re: Byzantine Vocations #88272 10/26/02 11:18 PM
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Joe T Offline
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"I guess my own surname is hispanicized, Mont-Alvo, "white mountain", since this must refer to the snow capped Carpathian mountains. On my mother's side the family is gallego, i.e. from Galicia."

Bisantovich Juan,

Nice to see some of us cradle-Rusyns diversify! It only helps add more recipes to the many goodies in our Paschal Baskets. Long live Incarnational Christianity!

Jose

Re: Byzantine Vocations #88273 10/26/02 11:29 PM
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"Isn't celibacy viewed as being "holier" than marriage is, in Eastern Catholicism and Orthodoxy. I know it is in Roman Catholicism."

CT,

That is an interesting question, but perpetual continence is also viewed as a "gift," whereas marriage is a sacred mystery.

What do you mean by "holier?"

Re: Byzantine Vocations #88274 10/26/02 11:46 PM
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Joe T,

I'm not really sure of what I mean by "holier." I put it in quotation marks because (I believe) that was the word used when I read an article on it by a Roman Catholic.

ChristTeen287

Re: Byzantine Vocations #88275 10/27/02 01:33 AM
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"... women, wives, should not be looked at as a sole means for are selfish sexual appitite and are lust for company. Nothing wrong with sexual want or company, but love should be involved in this too. Many here talk as though one can just go out and get a wife."

Justin,

You remind us well of the necessity to instill love first in any relationship, especially in marriage. I think women will appreciate your words. Yet, is this no different than those guys who have a girlfriend while studying in college and then waiting for after graduation and getting a job before popping the question? Love sometimes demands sacrifice and patience.

If a seminarian has a friendship for eight years while studying, then getting hitched prior to ordination is no rush job. She can also serve as an inspiration to study hard and finish on time.

Abstinence makes the heart grow fonder.

Re: Byzantine Vocations #88276 10/27/02 01:48 AM
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Quote
Originally posted by Joe T:


Yet, is this no different than those guys who have a girlfriend while studying in college and then waiting for after graduation and getting a job before popping the question? Love sometimes demands sacrifice and patience.

If a seminarian has a friendship for eight years while studying, then getting hitched prior to ordination is no rush job. She can also serve as an inspiration to study hard and finish on time.

Abstinence makes the heart grow fonder.
Absolutely true Joe. And it is good to see situations like this, were neither person betrays the other, and honors the time and love the other gave to them.

And it is even possible for a seminarian to meet a woman he loves and that loves him, a year or even a few months prior to ordination. They should marry too. And he should be ordained.

Justin

Re: Byzantine Vocations #88277 10/28/02 11:22 AM
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Rev. Fr. Peter-Michael Preble Offline OP
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ChristTeen,

Your assumption that celebacy is holier than marriage is incorrect. The teaching on celebacy in the western catholic church is that it is a state of being just like marriage. Not better, just different. Chastity, is called for in and out of marriage. In marriage, it is to onely one person, and out of means none of the above.

In the east, atleast in the eastern catholic church, the teaching is the same.

There is some really wrong information out there about the teaching on celebacy. I urge you to read the Catechism of the Catholic Church to get your inforamtion.

Peter - Currently Celebate

Re: Byzantine Vocations #88278 10/28/02 12:21 PM
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"There is some really wrong information out there about the teaching on celebacy [sic]. I urge you to read the Catechism of the Catholic Church to get your inforamtion."

Br. Peter,

I was wondering what Eastern Tradition has to say about celibacy? What book do I turn to for that? I believe ChristTeen was concerned about celibacy in itself, not chastity. Is celibacy "holier" in itself (by nature) compared to marriage?

ChristTeen,

Br. Peter has introduced another aspect common to both celibacy and marriage: chastity. People embracing either one or the other are called to be chaste.

To all,

What does the priest mean by "Holy things to (the holy) holy people?" Is he only referring to those who are celibate? or married? or chaste?

Re: Byzantine Vocations #88279 10/28/02 04:50 PM
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Most modern Catholics will do all they can to escape the tradition of the Virgin Mary. Some what similar to the Christ who no longer has His hands nailed to the cross but extended above as being raised from off of the cross.

"Holier" is questionable. But for sure celibacy is superior to conjucal acts.

Most people haven't a clue as to what celibacy is all about. Even monastic men that frequently masterbate will not understand what celibacy is about.

We must understand one thing about marriage. One can be married and yet unchaste. One can be married and have extramarital affairs. One can not be celibate and have sex, with any body. One can be celibate however and be of unchaste heart - i.e. frequent masterbation.

In America it is calculated by survey that almost half of American married women "cheat" on their husband. It is also calculated that over half, upwards of 60%, of American husbands "cheat" on their wives. If one had to tally celibacy against American marriages - then yes celibacy would be superior to American marriages in general.

The conjucal act will almost always produce pleasure. Less frequently it will produce children. Thus logicaly the conjucal act is primarily a source of pleasure and secondarily a source of reproduction.

Now what is celibacy all about? No it's not so much about not having sex as people think, though of course this what it foremostly is. So what is it? I know but I had to learn the hard way, and without anyone ever telling me. So since so many modern Christians think their so darn smart, I won't say. There is the fate worst then not having the navigational map but still eventually arriving where one always was trying to get to - it is time wasted, that could have produced much good fruit, but can never be gotten back - and in that much even when the person arrives where he/she was looking for - while happy - they regret the time wasted in long wrong routes that could have been avoided.

Justin

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