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Re: Byzantine Vocations #88295 10/29/02 07:01 PM
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Herbigny Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
The Celtic monks, in reality, were often married and the Scottish surname "MacNab" actually means "Son of the Abbot."
Alex
This is fascinating!!!

Can you give further information?!!?

I had heard that this happened once during a rather odd period in the history of the Great Church of the East, but it was subsequently seen to be an aberration - the result apparently of undue pressure from the dominant state-religionists, the Zoroastrians.

Re. the Celts I only had heard there were double monasteries, but not actually Married Monastics!

thanks.

herb.

Re: Byzantine Vocations #88296 10/29/02 07:44 PM
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Dear Herb,

Yes, the Celtic Church, as you know, had a number of "peculiarities" that drove the incoming Roman Christians "bananas" and this was one of them.

Not to mention their different tonsure, date of Easter (they refused to take Communion on Easter Sunday, but deferred it to "Little Easter" or St Thomas Sunday) etc.

Their missionaries were often titled, "Saint" even while they were alive - following the New Testament tradition, of course.

Their monastics often had families, living in their separate "cashels" and this obtained until the Synod of Whitby put a stop to it.

The Celtic monastics were very strict and followed an amazing regimen of prayer and fasting. Many of them were celibate, but both traditions obtained among them.

Alex

Re: Byzantine Vocations #88297 10/29/02 08:33 PM
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I wish to repeat what others have said -- there is no such thing as a failed vocation -- as long as we follow the Will of God.

I have observed a number of Byzantine Catholic/Eastern Catholics who have had experience in Roman Catholic religious orders. I think Our Lord is using their experience as a stepping stone to restoring traditional monastic life in our Churches. It's all part of God's mysterious ways -- His wonders to perform.

Not failed, but transformed for His glory, for His people on earth, for witness to Jesus Christ in the 3rd millennium!! Oh, what a glorious time to living!! :p

Re: Byzantine Vocations #88298 10/29/02 08:35 PM
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dear Alex:

Thanks for the quick reply.

Can you give me some references and sources, please? I'm sure people will not believe me when I tell them.

Much Thanks!

herb.

Re: Byzantine Vocations #88299 10/29/02 08:51 PM
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Dear Herb,

If I'm not mistaken, Meyendorff makes mention of this in his book, "Imperial Unity and the Byzantine Legacy."

It's been a while since I did my Celtic studies in university ("filler" courses that turned out to be a major obsession!).

The Celtic novelist, Nigel Tranter, with whom I corresponded before his death some time ago, did a lot of research on the Celtic Church.

His "Columba" and "Druid Sacrifice" goes into the marriage of Celtic monks - and his research, given his awards for Celtic history, is impeccable.

I've never really gone into it a whole lot.

Sorry I wasn't much help.

Alex

Re: Byzantine Vocations #88300 10/29/02 09:05 PM
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Dear Monasticbeginner,

Yes, my internet spiritual Father, namely, the Administrator, brought this home to me recently.

I've discovered I have a vocation, but it doesn't involve incense, altars or liturgical singing. (Some are 'incensed' at me, but you know what I mean).

I think your point is important insofar as IF we can get everyone understanding that they truly have a vocation, perhaps those whom God is truly calling to the Priesthood and Monastic life can awaken from the sweet spiritual slumber of slothfulness and get moving on it.

I used to wonder what to do with myself, and spent a lot of time posting here, for example wink .

And the only reason I'm posting today is a) to let people know I'm still alive; b) that I'm well, and c) waiting for a phone call from a colleague with whom I'm forging an alliance to do a special job.

So you are right on and I think everyone here is privileged to have someone with the depth of your wisdom.

Alex

Re: Byzantine Vocations #88301 10/29/02 10:59 PM
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Alex,

Do you mind telling us what you believe to be your vocation? If it is personal or private, then I apologize for delving into your business. Otherwise, I'm very curious to know. Whatever your vocation might be, may it bring you closer to your Creator.

ChristTeen287

Re: Byzantine Vocations #88302 10/29/02 11:36 PM
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Alex,

I was thinking and wondering how you might have taken my post? Because I didn't mean it to be harsh at all to you. But I'm not sure if it came across that way or not. One thing I hope I don't come across as an abnoxious younger person preaching to someone older. Hopefuly age and experience brings some wisdom with it. But I meant to speak as one person to another. And maybe that might have been harsh I don't know.

At any rate amonasticbegginer pretty much summed up my feelings towards this loser/winner attitude prevelant through out the world, Christianity included. But to each his own. I stick by what I say because mines comes from experience and not just theory without trial. But again to each his own smile

I got myself on another forum defending Christianity. Surely to have my ear bitten off. But then this is what I do best fighting against the odds. Truth is rarely popular anyways and opposed by many camps so enemies are bound to be made. Oh well.

Kind Regards,

Justin

Re: Byzantine Vocations #88303 10/30/02 03:18 AM
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I am really happy that Alex has had a type of epiphany. What this really proves is two things: if we both tractate and discuss with other spiritual people, and then follow up in prayer, we will make progress. Secondly: we have to get beyond the idea that "vocations" are pigeonhole-able, which is just the obverse of saying that "the Spirit moves where He will". One doesn't have to find the "vocation", one just has to be assured that where one is moving is in God's plan.

For all the talk about sexuality, personal choices, marriage/commitment, and virtue/vices, we just have to ensure that whatever we do is consonant with the will of God. There were certainly those who thought St. Francis of Assisi was a nut-case. [Sheesh, he talked with the birds and farm animals for heaven's sake!!] And Fr. Damien of Molokai didn't just "minister" to the lepers on a periodic basis, but he actually lived with them. There is now a movement among ex-Jesuits in the U.S. to discover how former members of the Order can establish some sort of formal linkage to the community to help carry out the mission of the Society of Jesus. This will, of course, scare the daylights out of the more "block-order" folks ["Yikes!!! But what will these men BE??! They can't be REAL Jesuits if they're married or 'hooked up'!!!]

So, I think that the Church, trusting fully in the Holy Spirit and INTENSE prayer -- oh yeah, and FASTING too -- should start being creative about ways that human souls can serve God and God's people in ways that haven't been thought of before. I suspect that much of this creativity will come in North America because the pioneer spirit of trying stuff to see if it will work is still present in the people. Without wrapping myself in the flag, I will state that Americans are still among the most innovatively creative people in the world. Most new inventions come from the U.S., and the rest of the world just embellishes on the basic concept. And I have no doubt that some new ways of organizing God's people to service of God and the Church will come from among our peoples. We just have to do the prayer and fasting, and then set out to try, try and try again until we succeed.

May the Lord give all who truly seek to serve God and God's people all the graces that they need to fulfil their mission. And may the Lord give us all the strength to move forward in this endeavor. [And I hope that the Lord provides Alex with red shoes. I can't think of anything else to pray for for him, so red shoes it is!! Alex! What's your shoe size?]

Blessings!!

Re: Byzantine Vocations #88304 10/30/02 03:52 AM
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And I have no doubt that some new ways of organizing God's people to service of God and the Church will come from among our peoples. We just have to do the prayer and fasting, and then set out to try, try and try again until we succeed.

May the Lord give all who truly seek to serve God and God's people all the graces that they need to fulfil their mission. And may the Lord give us all the strength to move forward in this endeavor. [And I hope that the Lord provides Alex with red shoes. I can't think of anything else to pray for for him, so red shoes it is!! Alex! What's your shoe size?]

Blessings!!
Dr. John,

AMEN!

Steve

Re: Byzantine Vocations #88305 10/30/02 02:05 PM
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Dear Dr. John,

YES, absolutely, couldn't have said it better myself (a foregone conclusion).

Your point on having relationships with other spiritual people, such as on this Forum, is what really is the key - and I'm grateful to the Administrator, yourself, Steve and so many others here, especially Cantor Joe for his thoughts on the Byzantine Vocations thread.

Your excellent point on intense prayer is something that tells me you have charismata you may not be aware of wink .

Being in a state of despair and confusion, I focused exclusively on an ambitious rule of prayer.

The temptations for me to discard it early were so great that I thought the Evil One himself was at the root of them.

It was almost as if something evil had come to walk next to me and made its presence known to me.

I had to not only begin prayer with the Sign of the Cross over myself, but outwardly, as if to "shoo" the thing away.

Then, at one point, the strenuous effort and tension died down suddenly.

It was during a reflection on Christ's Passion at the moment He was stripped of His raiment prior to being nailed to the Cross.

That reflection took on a life of its own at that moment.

Then the thought came that Christ was stripped in order to clothe us with His Grace and Mercy.

Rather than reflecting on the experience of humiliation and suffering of Christ, I realized that He was thinking of me, and all of us, at that moment to show us that as His garments were being ripped from His wounded Body, He was covering us with the Deifying power of His Grace that He was pouring out on us.

The Blood of Christ is sprinkled on us, blessing us, forgiving us,uplifting us and deifying us.

The Saviour and Messiah looks lovingly on us from the Tree of Life with tears, beckoning us to come to Him and be nourished with the Blood and Water from His Side.

I'm going to write some things and communicate with others. That is my vocation.

It seems that the reality of it is impressed insofar as a colleague, who is not religious, is all afire with getting me to go ahead and calls me daily to ask if I've done anything yet . . .

I've relaxed and become spiritually limp - be still and know that I am God, the Psalmist sings.

Sometimes we need to stand with Moses on the riverbank and see the salvation of our God.

I can feel the drops of water of the parting waves still, and can hear their roar.

What a fool I've been. God is found in the stillness of the breeze, the silence of the night and we are leaves driven by His Wind.

Alex

Re: Byzantine Vocations #88306 10/30/02 04:00 PM
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Truely prayer is powerful. I don't know how this works though. It is an interesting phenomina.

Currently a new prayer I have adopted is to pray to Divine Karma, that I may recieve good karma and to take away my bad karma. Still early I will see how this works out in my life? So far just to think it is calming on the brain.

The same people with your same goal is important also. A Hindue Yogi I read, from a book a friend gave to me to borrow, says it is almost impossible to get better in whatever your endevour if you don't have other persons that are already accomplished in your pursued goal around you. He says almost impossible but still possible. I must fall into his possible category in one respect - I am sober today and better then I have been at any other point at which I have struggled with this. And I don't pray to God for power or help nor do I associate with many people. I don't know? One day at a time. Tomorrow is tomorrow with the world or not. If one can begin to master themselves free of clicks then they can begin to find freedom - perhaps? Perhaps not?

Though Dr John I would not discount principal for emotions. Principals can help one toward their vocation - I think at least. I don't know I have decided on the type of person I want to become, and in doing so I have turned my back on my GI Bill for instance. I feel the government can keep their money. If I go to college I do not need their encouragement. Yes I have issues with the government. smile lol. But I feel what I do today will build me for tommorrow i.e. service to Buddha, service to Christ, service to Allah, or may be service to a child and wife. Even if it doesn't at least I'll have not sold out for an easier road. Just my thoughts at least.

Hopefully everyone will find whatever vocation best fits them and helps them feel at peace.

Justin

P.S. though I have issues with Catholicism I could be harder on it. I mean I remember all the good christians I've met along the way. Because, while I respect and encourage the crucifix amongst Christians. I myself can not bare to be around one. I associate it with to many negative things. Recalling a friend on mine being made to work like a dog so bad that he would wake shouting in pain from his tendons & ligaments. He would ask me for hot peppers to eat just to relieve him from the pain. No one was to talk with him and he could not eat with others. He was made to sleep out in a trailer where roaches crawl around at night. Thinking about the time I spoke with him when I wasn't suppose to, and he stopped me because he didn't want to get in anymore trouble and was willing to carry his cross. Almost brings tears to my eyes now.

I should - and I do apologies for bringing my negative issues with Christianity onto this forum. This lacks good character. At any rate I can no longer handle posting on two or three forums. This is my only religious one left and one other one I have alreay cut down on posting on. The other one is rather fun smile well not always smile to much flaming. But I like some of the topics so you have to take the bitter with the sweet smile

Wish everyone well.

Salut!

Re: Byzantine Vocations #88307 10/30/02 04:08 PM
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Salut to you too, Big Guy!

Alex

Re: Byzantine Vocations #88308 10/30/02 04:42 PM
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Alex, if there is any gift that you definitely have (in my humble observation) it is writing with a poetic verse (not the same thing as poetry even though I am sure you are skilled there too). If I ever tried to write something like that I am sure it would come across badly.

Do you write liturgical music by any chance?


Egzi'o Marinet Kristos
Re: Byzantine Vocations #88309 10/30/02 04:51 PM
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Selam Aklile,

Yes, I've written three Akathists in my time: Our Lady of Fatima, King Charles the Martyr and Jan Hus!

Those who can't sing - write! wink

The Episcopal Church has blessed the Akathist to King Charles for private use.

And some Lutheran Churches in Germany have put my Akathist to Jan Hus to music and are using parts of it (they're not used to such long services, I suppose!).

As for how I came to write the latter two Akathist services, don't ask!

I'm probably in enough trouble already for mentioning them . . .

God bless,

Alex/Alemayu

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