I would like to remind a few of our Roman Catholic participants of the rules and policies of The Byzantine Forum that they agreed to as a condition of membership:

The Byzantine Forum welcomes all newcomers to our on-line community. This forum is mainly a community of Byzantine and other Eastern Christians who share a common historical and theological heritage. Roman Catholic and other Western Christians who have come here to learn about how we express our faith in Christ are warmly invited to participate, but we make clear that the primary purpose of this forum is to exchange information and ideas and not to engage in heavy apologetics. If you have come to overload us with apologetic quotes to test how "Catholic" we really are, please don't bother to register - that is simply not how we live out our lives of faith.

To truly understand who Eastern Christians are you must "come and see" for yourself by joining us in worship. The warmth and fellowship of our faith experienced in person cannot be described in any book. We extend a warm invitation to everyone to visit one of our parishes and join us in prayer.

To put it a bit more bluntly, Roman Catholics who have come here to learn about Eastern Christianity are most welcome. Roman Catholics who have come here to use Latin doctrinal expressions as a measurement of our Catholicism are not welcome. Byzantine Catholics are not Roman Catholics. We do not intend to become Roman Catholics and make no apologies for not being Roman Catholics. We proudly proclaim the authentic theology of Orthodox Byzantium. We will not engage in apologetics against Roman Catholics who feel that we need to adopt the theology of the Latin Church.

If you have question about Byzantine or other Eastern Christian theology, ask away. We are more than happy to engage in these discussions.

If you are seeking to understand how Eastern and Western doctrinal expressions can mesh given that they sometimes appear quite different, good!

If you demand that we prove that our Eastern Christian approach to theology is acceptable to the Latin Church then go away and please don’t come back. This is something that we do not need to do.

We have engaged in numerous and repeated discussions over the years with each new Roman Catholic who joins our community. Many have a mindset that uses the Latin theological definitions as the only acceptable measuring stick of what is considered Catholic. To these participants I highly recommend that they study the teachings of Pope John Paul II and learn what the Catholic Church really teaches. When you study the Holy Father’s teachings you will find two important themes throughout: 1) He repeatedly states that the Western Church needs a healthy dose of all things Eastern Christian and 2) He repeatedly directs us not to copy Latin theological forms but instead to brightly witness the Light of the East.

I post this because there are currently several newer members who have ignored the agreement they made when they joined this community. I know that most are well meaning but we should not have to bear the brunt of their ignorance of Catholic theology.

Again, if you have come to ask questions, welcome and please stay. But if you have come to demand that we accept Latin theological forms or count more than Seven Ecumenical Councils, please go away and do not post in the future.

Admin

Thank you, brother administrator.

Another way to describe it: speaking to each other instead of at each other, would also help. Don't be reluctant to ask clarifying questions when you don't understand something. Part of the problem is a tendency of some to jump to conclusions instead of getting all the facts before replying.

Dear Administrator,

A welcome reminder to those of us who are of the Latin rite that we are guests here and have much to learn of the riches of our Eastern brothers and sisters. If I should ever cross the line of courtesy I hope someone will very quickly remind me.

Slava Jesu Kristu,

Personnaly, I am not as much offended by some of the attitudes as I am amazed by the lack of understanding. It points to the ever present need for better catechization for everyone. I think this is part of what the Pope was talking about in his "not being imprisoned by the past" letter. It should apply to both East and West.

Dmitri

Dear Friends,

Well, I only hope that I will still have the opportunity to have friendly fights and mental wrestling matches with our Latin AND Orthodox (not in communion with Rome) posters.

It's just so therapeutic to convince someone of the error of their ways and have them submit, er, ADMIT it . . .

Our recent visitor, John McAlpine, I must say, is a gentleman with whom it is a great pleasure to discuss things from within our own perspectives, while coming to an understanding of the biases that we both have.

Mr. McAlpine is not only a scholar in his own Rite , but is also someone who is both reasonable and who believes in "give and take."

John says he has learned a few things here - and I've certainly learned from him.

And I wanted to take this opportunity to publically thank John McAlpine for the privilege of exchanging stimulating posts with him.

Alex

Dear Administrator,

I have read your posting and think that it quite appropriate. There is no need for apologetics among members of Sister Churches.

As you point out, there is need for discussion and and sharing as well as learning and understanding. Alex points out this sometimes leads to heated discussions. I agree with that, too. These can lead to great light as long as they are based on mutual respect and love. I've learned from such discussions on occasion. :rolleyes:

I think that the patience and willingness on the part of Eastern and Oriental Christians, Catholic and Orthodox, to share the riches of the East with us Westerners and to listen to us when we share ours is a signature characteristic of this forum.

I am grateful for that. So, thanks to you and the other administrators. Thanks, too to all of the Eastern and Oriental Christian posters who welcome us into the midst of your community and make us feel at home here.

Frankly, this is the best place I've found to learn of the East as the Pope has asked us to do.
I know that the enthusiasm of some of us Latins for our way of understanding and living the Truth gets out of hand. For that we should and, I think, do apologize.

May our enthusiasm be tempered by coming to know your way of understanding and living our shared Truth. Your continued patient explication of the East's ways is a great gift to us.

So, thanks to you all!

Steve

Dear Steve,

Thank you for your comments!

But I might just add that we only have ONE administrator here.

The rest are just lowly moderators .

They observe the principal of collegiality, but there is a "First among Equals" among them who, nevertheless, finds a good practical application of "Primacy of Jurisdiction" a solid tool for maintaining order and decorum here . . .

But, as far as I know, the Administrator has never claimed infallibility . . .

Alex

Brother Administrator,

I acknowledge your statement and hopefully have not violated it in any way. I am a baptized RC however I pray and think in the Eastern Rite. I guess because I was born in Boston has something to do with it?

In Christ,
james

Perhaps the administrator is infallible when speaking on matters of JAVA and SQL

Dear Paromer,

But only when he speaks from the Chair of Google?

Alex

James,

To my knowledge you have never violated any Forum rules. My reminder was to two or three newer participants who have tended to constantly demand that Eastern Catholics accept Latin theological formula in order to be considered as Catholic by those participants. Many of these types of participants have an incomplete grasp of Catholic theology and often do more harm to the Church than good. Most have not read the teachings of the Catholic Church about the equality of Eastern Christian theology (and especially Eastern Catholic theology) to Latin Catholic theology and falsely assume that the Latin doctrinal formula constitute the standard against which we in the East must conform ourselves. This, of course, is not accurate.

A single discussion of this type would be ok, but since we regularly get new members who are of this ilk these discussions occur repeatedly. They chase away Eastern Christian participants who rightly feel that they should not have to constantly defend themselves in their own internet home. We must be diligent to keep The Byzantine Forum as primarily a place for Eastern and other Christians to discuss Eastern Christianity. Other discussions are always welcome but just not in the context of Latin Catholics always putting Eastern Christians on the defensive.

Admin

It's your Forum, Mr. Administrator, but so what if they did? The person who apparently prompted you to post this thread was at the very least respectful and didn't resort to name-calling, anathemas or denunciations. Those who would do (and have done) so usually get their jollies after about 3 posts and move along to troll some other forum of "dissenters".

ISTM that you allow or tolerate certain opinions only so far when they are diametrically opposed to your own. Granted, in your interpretation, things like the number of ecumenical councils and which dogmas "must be accepted" to be a Catholic in good standing, are quite different than the claims made by the poster in question.

But I guarantee that even in the Vatican you would find a wide range of opinion on these issues, based on the reading of the same documents you cite again and again. Even those in teaching authority in our Churches don't seem to have reached a consensus about the number of Ecumenical Councils, the binding nature of the dogmas of P.I. and the I.C., etc. But you're asserting that the Byzantine Catholic position on these issues is self-evident, in the precise way that you state, and absolutely resolved and taught to us by our bishops.

Has your objective been reached with respect to said poster? I suppose it has -- he acknowledged that perhaps he was in error and that he had some more learning to do. But instead of being affirmed in his desire to grow, he goes away humiliated never to return.

I note your use of the terms "demand", "constantly demand", "must conform", etc. On the contrary, while clearly this attitude does appear **occasionally**, so what? The inherent weakness and unsupportability of these Roman-first positions is self-evident, as is the caricatured way it is usually presented by the more odious of the "do-gooders" who occasionally show up here. Or are you not trusting in the ability of Eastern Catholics to think for themselves?

LR,

Thank you for your post. Actually, two Roman Catholic participants prompted this thread. Both have been polite and respectful. The one you speak of was certainly polite and respectful but I had already made several posts to this individual reminding him that this is an Eastern Christian internet community and that it was not proper for him to post in a manner that puts the Eastern Christians who participate here on the defensive.

This is a fair statement. Every individual has his or her own interests and reacts more strongly to people to whose opinions are diametrically opposed to from his or her, especially when they are presented in a “you can’t be correct” type of argument. I attempt to be fair all around but I make plenty of mistakes.

You are correct in that there is not an official pronouncement in any Church, Byzantine or Latin, Catholic or Orthodox regarding the exact number of Ecumenical Councils. The Latins tend to think that any council they participated in is fully ecumenical. Our official catechism (“Light for Life”) merely details that “the Byzantine Churches venerate the seven councils during the course of the liturgical year” and notes that “[t]he Roman Catholic Church further recognizes fourteen other councils as ecumenical”. It should be clear to anyone who reads this that the authors and the bishops who approved this catechism are gently reaffirming our traditional Byzantine perspective regarding the number of councils. The point, however, is not whether the later fourteen General Councils in the West were valid. The point is whether they are to be considered to ecumenical according to the same definition as the Seven Ecumenical Councils. Even Pope Paul VI taught that there was a difference in the qualitative nature of the Seven Ecumenical Councils.

No. He has probably gone away convinced that we just don’t get it. I am saddened by this but the Forum cannot be all things to all people. He should not have chosen to come to an Eastern Christian internet “household” and engaged in heavy apologetics against us thus violating the rules he agree to. My first priority on the Forum is to make it a friendly place for Eastern Christians to discuss topics of interest to Eastern Christians. He was a guest in our household and chose not to abide by our rules. I did only what I felt was necessary.

Again, you are correct in that the Latin-first positions of some of the posters are unsupportable and that the Eastern Christian participants here are well able to think for themselves and respond appropriately (and they have done a quite good job). The problem is that the Eastern Christian participants should not have to do this repeatedly. If some of the Roman Catholics who hold such positions came into our internet household and simply engaged in challenging discussions there would be no problems and I would have done nothing. But when they come demanding that we use their measuring stick of what Catholic is then I must object. We should not have to do that in our own house.

I am sorry that we disagree about this but I must do what I think best for this community.

Admin

Dear Administrator,

Are you suggesting that the Orthodox Church, since it apparently/allegedly lacks this "official pronouncemnt," accepts more than 7 Ecumenical Councils?

Thanks in advance for your reply.

Tony

Could be--Fr. Dvornik shows in his article "Which Councils Are Ecumenical?" that there has always been considerable debate in the Orthodox Church as to if the Council of 879-880 (the Photian Reunion council) is number eight and the Hesychast Synods of 1341, 1347, and 1351 together constitute number nine. The consensus now is majority-for seven ecumenical councils BUT at times several Orthodox hierarchs and writers have posited that all nine are in fact ecumenical.

In Christ,

anastasios