I've been reading here for a few years and finally decided to ask a question that I have not seen here. Our Byzantine Catholic Church (the only Eastern Catholic Church within a few hours driving) has a large group of SPX'ers who seem to outnumer the rest of us and they are always pushing their traditional devotions and traditions. That's fine, but I don't want us to be an SPX Church. Does any other Church have this problem? Surely we are not the only one! How do other Eastern Catholic Churches maintain their integrity?

I attend the only Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church in the state of Georgia and our priest has not allowed anything not within our tradition.
Occasionally a new Roman rite in attendance will ask why we don't have Stations, etc. and he
explains they are not part of our tradition.
denise

What devotions are they trying to push? How eduacated are they about Eastern praxis? Are they being educated?

Dmitri

Truly those of the SSPX mindset who think of the BCs parishes as "traditional" and push for further latinization are a problem. I congratulate your pastor on his firmness. I also want to relate an experience (actually more than one) I had in your parish some years ago with the same pastor as you have now.

I attended your parish on many ocasions as I visited the Atlanta area frequently during the 90s. Once I was there during Lent about 6-7 years ago. I called and asked if there would be pre-sanctified, I was told yes, I cannot remember now if it was Wednesday or Friday, it is immaterial. In any event I arrived and there were only 2 or 3 other people in church. The pastor came out with the deacon (God rest his soul) and the pastor said: Blessed...! In peace... and the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, on a weeknight during lent and recited! One of the women sort of rolled her eyes at me after the service and told me she knew it would not be pre-sanctified. I asked Father on the way out (as he was at the door in the back of the church, which I am sure he still does) why he did what he did, he said that the people didn't know how to sing it!

Now, nothing was sung. Was it better to recite the Chrysostom Liturgy or the pre-sanctified? I was also there on Sundays and feasts when the liturgy was recited...even one Christmas morning!

I understand once there was a problem with the 'choir' at one time but there still is a cantor, right?

Again, I applaud him that he does not introduce latinizations in the church (he is not from an RC background so perhaps it is easier for him to resist) but at the same time he seems to allow other practices that are not part of the tradition, like recited liturgy.

Bob

Get used to "hearing" recited Divine Liturgies and other services as we, the Ruthenian Metropolia are in dire need of not only trained priests but also "educated" Cantors and Cantorka's!! While the new regime is trying to re-issue a new Liturgicon with new English translations and new musical
chant renderings, nobody is looking out for those small parishes that don't have a regular, paid cantor. The problem of English vs. Slavonic won't be the problem, rather a "sung vs. recited" service is and will remain the real problem! It's only a matter of time where this will be the rule and not the exception!

Ung-Certez

Reply to Bob King regarding Liturgy of St John C
during Lent rather than the Pre-Sanctified on a
Wednesday or Friday evening:

I have been attending for nearly 20 years at same parish. I do not go to many Pre-Sanctified due
to distance/kids/school etc. BUT I have never
heard our priest say the Divine Liturgy rather than the Pre-sanctified on Wednesday or Friday
evenings. We probably attended on different evenings.

I do agree with you, Bob, that at our particular parish some of the Romans are seeking "tradition",
probably trying to "escape" the changes in the Roman Rite as some of the Roman churches in the area are a bit liberal, i.e. brass bands at Mass, etc.

As we are the only Ruthenian Byzantine church in the state of Georgia, most of the Romans are not familiar with the Eastern Rite. I, myself, was unfamiliar with the Eastern Rite until I moved just a mile away from this church (I now live a bit further) but soon grew to love it.

Years ago, many of the parishioners were Roman
(being the nearest Catholic church in the area -- we are in the Bible Belt down here in the south!),
our priest did an excellent job of educating us
new-comers. He would explain the various traditions of the East during the time of the sermon. Examples: why we cross right to left, why the church faces east, why we use incense, how to properly stand to receive Communion, etc.

Years ago we may have recited Sunday Liturgy on occasion when a cantor was not available; you know how small our parish is and how few are
"cradle" Byzantines. But we have had occasions more recently when a cantor was not available.
Our priest asks us before Liturgy if we would prefer to sing or recite. We always eagerly ask to sing -- and we do a wonderful job! We prefer to sing the Liturgy despite the fact we could get out earlier if we merely recited it. It is much more beautiful when sung.

This is a perennial problem in many of our parishes. Our liturgy is often just seen by the traditionalist Latins as another "traditional Mass" without consideration or respect for the totality of our tradition and respect for our customs.

A friend of ours who recently left the SSPX called us and explained that an unnamed Ukrainian Catholic priest recently told her sister who continues to attend an SSPX parish part-time that the people were not to kneel during the Anaphora. Her sister was completely incensed at what she saw as a lack of respect for the "consecration".

My reply was, what do you think they (trad Latins) would say if a group of Eastern Catholics went to the traditional Latin Mass, sat in front, and during the Canon, Agnus Dei, Domine Non Sub Dignus, etc., stood up? The rest of the congregation would likely freak out and be completely scandalized! The point is, first of all we (Eastern Catholics) wouldn't likely do this, and secondly we only expect the same respect for our liturgy, tradition, and worship posture as they would at their liturgies.

There have been ex-SSPXrs complain to some of our Eastern Catholic bishops because Orthodox catechetical and theological material was made available at some parishes. I know this for a fact as I discussed this with a bishop who actually had this happen to him.

I say thank God, it's about time, past due actually that we use Orthodox material. We are Orthodox in communion with Rome, after all. We don't tell the trad Latins how to run their liturgy and catechesis and we expect simply the same respect.

Come and visit St JOhn the Baptizer Ukrainian Catholic Church 4400 Palm Ave. La Mesa, CA and be sure to attend the 8:00 am liturgy. You will find them. We got into it last week because we just started a Bible study and how dare a layman open up the Scriptures. Whatever.

Look under parish life folder and look for a thread I started called Anti Vatican II parishioners and you will see some expierences in my parish and those of others who post here.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ukrainiancatholic:
[QB]Come and visit St JOhn the Baptizer Ukrainian Catholic Church 4400 Palm Ave. La Mesa, CA


I used to live in San Diego and sometimes went to Our Lady of Perpetual Help Ukrainian Cath Church on Winona Ave (in the days of MSGR Mikyta :rolleyes: I do remember lots of Tridentiners there with the Saccherine Latin-rite hymns and recited LIturgy etc

I did not know there was a parish in La Mesa?
The former parish was very Latinized before and with a new priest, I heard was beginning to go back to Eastern Tradition.
How is this new parish?

GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST!
GLORY TO HIM FOREVER!

An Eastern Catholic wrote:"...Our Byzantine Catholic Church (the only Eastern Catholic Church within a few hours driving) has a large group of SPX'ers who seem to outnumer the rest of us and they are always pushing their traditional devotions and traditions..."

We have a number that attend our Divine Liturgy also. They come for a few weeks, get discouraged because we stand for Paska or we bless fruit or flowers and they leave only to return a few months later.

We have one family in my parish who insist on going to confession 5 MINUTES before the beginning of Divine Liturgy. Our priest is FULLY VESTED when the mother and the father decide it's time to go to confession.

We had one woman who constantly complained about our use of OCS instead of Latin. She made the mistake of sitting DIRECTLY in front of me and made the comment about "that horrid language that no one understands..." and then something about "a good Latin Mass". I leaned forward and sang even louder directly into her ear. After Divine Liturgy ended, I leaned forward and told her that if she didn't like our customs and traditions to get out, we didn't want or need her there.

I know you all are going to jump all over me for being rude etc, but frankly I don't care! I've worked for my parish for the last 25 yrs. I've sat there and waited in UN-airconditioned comfort for the priest to arrive to sing Divine Liturgy and he was already 45 mins late. I've been there until 3am installing the new lights on the Altar so it would bright enought for Paska Liturgy. I'm sick and tired of these people coming into MY CHURCH and trying to tell me what I'm doing is WRONG!

They should stay in their own church and work to "fix" what they think is broken.

Oh, great, now my blood pressure is sky-high....

mark

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Medved:
[QB]GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST!
GLORY TO HIM FOREVER!


>>>They should stay in their own church and work to "fix" what they think is broken.<<<

Axios! Axios! AXIOS!!!

Yes?

Dear Friends,

I agree that SSPXers have an "axios" to grind . . .

My priestly friend's parish is about one-half traditional Catholic, a number of whom were SSPX.

Frankly, he wouldn't be without them.

They participate in the liturgy and choir, and have learned to sing the liturgy in Ukrainian.

They cross themselves with three fingers, but often go to the left rather than to the right (LOL!).

They give of their time and resources for all sorts of parish ministry and outreach.

And they get the other half, the Ukies, all upset because they seem to be all over the parish.

Maybe they're not super-Eastern.

But no one's perfect.

Alexios

I think that is just the point. One thinkg you can say about SSPXs is that they love to be involved (sometimes too much). We Byzantines should learn from their example. Think of the great Eastern Churches we could build, Liturgies we could have, etc., if we put our minds to it and fully embrace our Faith.

Dmitri

We had some "SPXers" who visited us for a short time while their independent chapel was without a priest. Of course, we didn't do things the "right" way, and needed to be educated about the Tridentine Mass - you know, the Mass handed by Christ directly to the Apostles. They did get their own priest and went back to their chapel. No one is being uncharitable about them. Their ignorance of anything other than the Missal of Pius V is incredible. Their pride and unwillingness to learn about anything else are even worse. I thougt they looked better "going" than "coming."