Amen, Amen, Amen, Lemko! We need to get our own house in order and return, as Vatican II and Orientale Lumen admonishes us, to our authentic traditions both spiritually and liturgically. We are still trying to get Presanctified started in some places in Greek Catholic churches. We have a long way to go.

Saturday night Vespers should be a part of every parish's life instead of the Saturday evening "Vigil Liturgy" that is nothing but an abuse and is sadly the most attended in some Byzantine Catholic parishes.

A minor point Stuart. The "Ordo Pius V" you refer to is somewhat of a misnomer, as the usage of the SSPX (second Confiteor and miseriatur vestri) is actually a more recent development (19th c.) with the Mass, as are obviously the Leonine prayers in use for Low Mass. The 1962 Missale Romanum in use by many priests of the FSSP is more faithful in some of these respects to the missal promulgated after Quo Primum.

""The Church acknowledges Gregorian chant as specially suited to the Roman liturgy; therefore...it should be given pride of place in liturgical services".

Just a comment. Bad music, almost always indicates that there's something wrong in the Liturgy. In this case, what the Council says is not applied because the traditional sacred music doesn't fix anymore (with the new liturgy).


May I make a question? hehe
just curious.

Some of you have told us some of your experiences in byzcath parishes with the Tridentinists and how they wanted to mix their particular practices with your liturgy.
But I supose you are also visited by "modern" western catholics. Have you got a similar experience with them (for example, people trying to use guitars in the liturgy, clapping or you know... guitar liturgies, rock liturgies).

[ 08-12-2002: Message edited by: Remie ]

But I supose you are also visited by "modern" western catholics. Have you got a similar experience with them (for example, people trying to use guitars in the liturgy, clapping or you know... guitar liturgies, rock liturgies).

Nah, the incense, chanting, and length of the Liturgy drive them away. We don't have enough "Oprah moments" to hold their interest, or "minister" to their needs.

Was the goal of Bishop Chornok et al. the shedding of Greek Catholic usages or just the opposite?



Considering the implicated alternative of looking around and criticizing others engaged in prayer, I rather like the rosary.

djs

[QUOTE]Originally posted by walt metrick:
[QB]I

>>>The suggestion was to make an outside convert "feel at home" with some of their traditions while learning/embracing the traditions of the BC rite he/she is involved with.<<<

Unfortunately, it would not work out that way. If you're going to take the plunge, best to dive right in, leaving your old particular Church behind. Particularly insofar as the mindset that finds Latin useage "normative" and Eastern useage "exceptional" is still very common--even among our own people.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him Forever!

Walt wrote:"...and what was the first thing I saw? A couple praying the rosary before the Divine Liturgy. I looked at my wife and gave her one of my "You gotta be kiddin' me !!!" looks. Yes, I was disappointed..."

If you travel to Eastern Slovakia and Western Ukraine, you find the women gathered before EACH AND EVERY Divine Liturgy to chant the Rosary. This devotion is what sustained them during the years of opression.

Not only do they chant on Sunday morning BEFORE Divine Liturgy but they chant Sunday evening for devotions. They chant several evenings during the week followed by hymn singing. Lord help the priest who tries to tell this women, the TRUE keepers of the Flame, that what they are doing is wrong!

mark

I would be surprised if they were praying the rosary during the Liturgy (bad manners), but there's nothing wrong with the Rosary.
Although it isn't truly Byzantine, it's a beauteful tradition. It's probable that the roots of this devotion are among the Syriacs and the Arab muslims. Then it passed to the cruzaders and the Western Church.

I don't know if it is still the case, but in one Michigan city it was the Maronite Catholic priest who celebrated the Indult Tridentine Mass for many years.

Dear Mark and Remie,

Our old parish priest was very much against the Rosary during the Liturgy as he said our attention should be focused on participating in the liturgy. He was also against the use of prayerbooks as well as he said it was a distraction!

I don't understand, however, the attitudes of some Byzantines who feel they are at the pinnacle of their Eastern Church identity when they disparage the Rosary.

Apart from the FACT that St Seraphim of Sarov, St Seraphim Vyritsky and St Seraphim Zvezdinsky, as well as many other Orthodox saints, recited the "Rule of the Mother of God" DAILY, the monastic manuals, published by Jordanville, show that even on Mt. Athos the tradition persists to recite 150 Hail Mary's daily (but with prostrations!).

This devotion is a devotion to the Incarnation of OLGS Jesus Christ, it probably came to the West via the East and Eastern monasticism, and it is now very popular in Russia itself, as the book "Staretz Zechariah, an Early Soviet Saint (chapter 6)" and others indicate.

One could recite five decades prior to the Liturgy as preparation and then five afterwards. But saying it during the Liturgy, as with any other private devotion, should be a no-no.

Alex

SLAVA ISUSU CHRISTU!
SLAVA NA VIKI BOHU!

Hi Alex

I don't of anyone who would pray the Rosary during Divine Liturgy. At least no one in my church nor in any of the churches I visited in Slovakia.

marko

Dear Marko,

That's good, then!

Alex

Marko et al.,

Neither did I see in Slovakia or Hungary Greek Catholic folks praying the rosary DURING liturgy.

I have however seen that HERE IN THE USA in many places. I have also seen RC people doing that. Praying the rosary during liturgy! If I understand the rosary (which I don't claim to as it does not form a part of my devotional life) one must meditate on one of 15 mysteries while reciting the corresponding prayers. How can someone do that while participating in Liturgy or Mass? Maybe in the 'good ol' days" of Latin Mass when it was silent and what was not silent was in Latin....but now? Or in one of "our" types of churches?

I just don't get it!

Bob

Dear ByznTN, most of these "liberal" Catholics are simply a product of their upbringing in the post-modernist church. I think it is unfair to throw them all into such categories as you have indicated.

I have found many of these people absolutely receptive to our tradition precisely because the mystery and reverance is in many ways removed from their own liturgical experience. And often these folks come in with less baggage and fewer pretentions about what we are supposed to do (kneel at the Consecration, pray the Rosary before Liturgy, etc.) as some of the traditionalists who come, and therefore are often more open to the full and authentic Eastern Christian tradition after some catechesis.

Dear Diak:
Perhaps I should have put a smiley in there somewhere so you wouldn't have taken me so seriously. I am sure you have met many modern Catholics who literally fall in love with our traditions. I have met some, also. However, I have met plenty who see nothing relevant to themselves in those traditions. The Divine Liturgy is, "too long, too creedal, too complicated, antiquated, anachronistic" and etc. And of course, it usually gets mentioned in there somewhere that it is not "personal" enough, either. I think that some Catholics just have a different mindset that is not sympathetic to Eastern spirituality.

I'll go with you there, bro'.