Here you go guys.

Lance,

Go where?

Well I used to be a super duper pro-English guy, but then I realized that some parishes are just suited to be that niche for immigrants. If immigrants are still coming to the States (or Canada, or England, whatever) then there will be new blood in those "ethnic" parishes. When immigration patterns slow down, they will gradually switch more and more to English. If there is an English language parish of the same church in that city, then converts and children of immigrants could be directed there.

The reason I came to this conclusion was that we have an Antiochian Orthodox parish in our city that is all-English; many of the Arabs now attend the Maronite Catholic Church now which chants much in Arabic.

In Christ,

anastasios

Edwin,

Long ago, before the Great Crash, I placed this topic so another would not drift. What that topic was I no longer remember.

In Christ,
Lance, deacon candidate

Well, now that it's here, I'm going to complain. I apologize in advance. :p

I'm in the process of moving from a small city with a little Ruthenian mission that is thoroughly Eastern. Everyone is very friendly, etc.

I'm moving to this nice big city with FOUR Eastern Catholic Churches: Maronite, Melkite, Ruthenian, and Ukrainian.

The Ruthenian Church is VERY Latinized with lots of folks kneeling, the filioque; you name it, if it was a Latinization they had it. I will say that the folks were friendly and their choir . . . oooh their choir was n-i-c-e.

Then there's the Ukrainian Church. The first time I went I decided to stay after a bit and meet some people. I felt a bit awkward at first, but I've moved a lot and am not unfamiliar with playing the stranger's role. I noticed that no one was taking the initiative, so I walked over to a few people who were chatting with whoever might pass by and introduced myself. I was taken aback by their disinterest in greeting a stranger. I noticed they all spoke English fluently, often with each other, but for whatever reason they were not interested in meeting me. A few minutes later a nice lady came up and introduced herself in Ukrainian. I introduced myself in English. She wanted to know how I was Ukrainian. I told her I wasn't. She smiled and invited me to stay for a while since it was the tenth anniversary of Ukrainian Independence. That was the end of our conversation and no one else seemed interested in talking to me, so I left after another half-hour. I figured it was just a bad week with all the festivities.

I was out of town for a few weeks, but decided to give the church a second chance, this time with my wife and son. We met a nice couple who chatted with us for a while after church. Of course, no one else seemed to want anything to do with us, but you've got to start somewhere. I went back again the next week, which was last week. This time no one talked to me and I was tired of putting out my hand to introduce myself, only to be pushed aside and told "excuse me."

I've read Pelikan's biography of Metropolitan Slipij and I understand the UCC's position on "keep the Ukrainians in the Diaspora in church by making them nationalistic Ukrainians," but I must say that I have never been in a church or met a group of people less hospitable. Actually, that's not true. I did once know a group of guys from Ireland who were openly hostile to . . . well, that's another story.

I have a son and need to raise him as a good Eastern Catholic, not as a Ukrainian first nationalist and not as a Latinized version of a Ruthenian. How am I supposed to raise my child when the Church is more interested in his ethnic background than his faith or soul?

Well, tomorrow I'm going to the Melkite church. The good thing is that, although I've been going to Ruthenian Churches for five years, I haven't officially changed over yet. At least this way I can make sure I change to the one that will give us a spiritual home.

One more thing: my folks, who are "evangelical" protestants, moved two years ago had visited a Baptist church down the road. When I was there visiting, every day someone from the local Baptist church visited or called. Annoying? Well, my parents are members there now and so are a few thousand others.

You want evangelism? Say hello when unfamiliar people walk through your door. All the prayers and right liturgy in the world ain't gonna do ya no good if ya won't even take the time to say "howdy" to a stranger.

Okay. I'm through.

[You want evangelism? Say hello when unfamiliar people walk through your door. All the prayers and right liturgy in the world ain't gonna do ya no good if ya won't even take the time to say "howdy" to a stranger.]

Amen! Thanks for sharing that. This is exactly what I do. I've been in my present parish thirteen years now. And on December 1st I will sponsoring my ninth convert into the Orthodox faith (his wife and son will be following him at a later date). And they all started with a 'Howdy (Good Morning) welcome to our parish'.

OrthoMan

Though I have many Ukrainian friends and I love Ukrainian culture and have the greatest respect for Ukrainian Christianity, I have to say that, for me at least, it seems that "church" for many Ukrainians is strictly about politics and ethnicity.

In my own city (actually, in a nearby suburb) the Ukrainians recently organized a parish. This city (in the "Bible Belt") does not have enough Eastern Rite Catholics to support more than one parish. The Ruthenian parish has thirved for 15 years, though membership (mainly people moved here from up north) is still small. The establishment of the new Ukrainina parish was cheered by local Ukrainians (many of whom attended the Ruthenian parish sporadically or never). I can't see what benefit the new Ukrainian parish has brought this city. The priest is married, from Ukraine. Most of those now attending are 2-3rd generation and are not fluent in Ukrainian, though the liturgy is celebrated in Ukrainian.

It all seems a sad exhibition of negative ethnicity.

Glory to Jesus Christ!


Kevin

OrthoMan,

What bothers me the most is that if I have never walked into an Antiochian Orthodox Church without being treated like a guest. I wish I could say the same for Catholic churches. And yes, I have probably been in as many Orthodox as Catholic churches.

Kevin,

How's St. Basil's! I was married there (in 1997???? Please don't let this post fall into my wife's hands!). I remember a great dialogue from Fr. Ron when he was asked by a couple of (well meaning) Ukrainians why he didn't do more in Ukrainian to attract more Ukrainians. He responded by saying that, even though the Ukrainians didn't have their own church there, surely they would find St. Basil's to be more of a home than a Roman Parish. One responded that they didn't attend a Roman Parish. He added that it was too bad that they became Orthodox. They said most they were talking about hadn't done that either. I can't remember what said after that. I was too shocked. I guess it was either Ukrainian or nothing.

That being said, I know the Ukrainians have the right to make a go of it if they like. I visited the Ukrainian church there and like the priest very much. They got what they wished for. Oh did they ever. I've heard that some are grumbling that it's too Ukrainian. I only hope that Dallas will be strong enough to support twenty Eastern Catholic parishes, not just two. And I don't think that's dreaming too hard. Lord knows, there are more Mormon churches there than that.

I hope and pray for their church, but especially St. Basil's. I can't begin to say what Fr. Ron and St. Basil's did for my wife and I. They kept me in the church and, along with the Tulsa mission, brought my wife back.

Dear Cizinec,

Excuse my digression, but I am a linguist by education. Cizinec is the Czech form (there are NO Czech Greek Catholics, though St Clements in Prague is one of my favorite Greek Catholic churches). Just curious about your nickname (I am Slav but purely Roman Catholic by background, being an "American " convert). I grew up exposed to Czech/Moravian/Slovak dialects, but over the years I have developed a great suspciion of Czech anticlericalism. So why the Czech nickname, if I may ask?

Anyway, I love St Basils because of my tremendous respect for Father Bob (where IS Father Bob these days, anyone know?). We built that church from weekly meetings at the Univ of Dallas, then physically erected ourselves the present building. Of course, without the charisma of Father Bob, it would have gone nowhere.

So, Mr Cizinec, I guess you and I know each other. By sight anyway.

I do not believe in criticzing the clergy (my wife and her family have a terribly habit of running into the ground their local pastor) and I believe every pastor has a gift he brings to his community.

I know that my own spiritual life was enriched in many ways by Father Bob. I count him among my spiritual mentors.

Unfortunately, I am now going through a crisis and I am seeking someone from a monastic community. I have some serious decision to make in my life.

I know today that ethnicity is not an answer. No racial/ethnic group holds the key to knowledge (I used to think that we Slavs held that). Out only hope is in Jesus Christ. We are all brothers and sisters in Christ!

Mr Cizinec, tell me where you are these days and I will fill you in on happenings in the Dallas area.


Glory to Jesus Christ!

Kevin

Cizinec,

I am toubled by the reception you received. It is definitely an obstacle to evangelization and completely Un-Christian. This seems to be a problem with some Ukrainian Catholic parishes in the US, because I have heard this story more than once. It does not seem to occur in Canada where friends of mine have attended Ukrainian parishes. Perhaps our friend Alex has some insight into this situation?

I think you will find a happy, welcoming, very traditional home at the Melkite parish. Melkite/Antiochian hospitality is renowned.

Unfortunately, we Ruthenians are very nice and welcoming but are often Latininzed and thus a turn off to prospective members. This is the main reason why I am so strident about restoring or traditions and shedding Latinizations. If we are to survive we must expand (or at least replace the members we lose to attrition) and the only way to do that is be Byzanitne. Being a hybrid only pleases the old folks who grew up that way and they are being called home to the Lord more and more frequently these days. If we maintain the Latinizations to please them, we lose the prospective members who want the fullness of the Byzantine tradition and end up with dead parishes.

My prayers in finding a spiritual home.

In Christ,
Lance, deacon candidate

Kevin Hannan, is that you my friend? Nice to see you again. Have you been on this forum before? If not, glad to see you join.

In IC XC
Samer

And the Latin Church needs to get rid of all these Hispanic parishes that are so unwelcoming to real Americans (i.e. Anglophones).

K.

Kurt:

I am in no way implying an ethnic parish can't exist for those recent immigrnats who speak little to no English. However, there is no excuse for treating visitors rudely because they aren't of one's own ethnicity. The Ukrainian Catholic Church in the US has a problem with this. Cizinec's story is one of many I have heard from visitors (including clergy) to Ukrainian parishes.

In Christ,
Lance, deacon candidate

Lance,

Well, my experience and the reports I have from others are just the opposite. So we have conflicting personal experiences.

As to latinizations, as my own pastor once told me, "anyone visiting this parish asking about latinizations, already knows enough about Catholicism to find themselves around on their own. I'm making my priority those who don't even know what Easter is."

K.

My experience mirrors Lance's. Some of the leadership of the Ukrainian Church is seeking to change things. A few years ago the theme of one of their conventions was "The Ukrainian Church--Open to All." The reality is much different in some parishes, however. The analogy to Hispanic parishes is specious. For one thing, I've always been made feel welcome at any Hispanic parish I've visited. These, for the most part, reflect a culture that is vibrant and in many parts of the USA dominant. They are not nostalgic "culture clubs" comprised of third and fourth generation descendants who want no contact with others in the community. These sort of parishes are dying.

The future for the Byzantine Catholic Church in America is to reach out to our neighbors who do not know Christ and need the gospel. Evangelism is not the sole province of the Roman Church. It belongs to us also.

Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

[ 11-15-2001: Message edited by: DTBrown ]