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Re: Altar Girls #89371
10/12/04 08:20 PM
10/12/04 08:20 PM
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Raleigh, NC
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anastasios Offline
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The issue is not accuracy but authority, chronolology, and theology. I don't have the ability to condense a 173 page book into a post online, but for those interested I would recommend this book:


Scientific Examination of the Orthodox Church Calendar, or The Old Calendar and Science

by Hieromonk Cassian. Edited by Archbishop Chrysostomos of Etna and Hieromonk Gregory. ISBN 0-911165-31-2. LCCN 98-70699. Pp. 173.

In this comprehensive study of the calendar issue, Father Cassian refutes the “received view” that the Gregorian Calendar is more precise astronomically than the Julian Calendar, proving with an abundance of scientific evidence that it is impossible, given what we know about time and space, to devise any calendar that would be entirely accurate. From a theological viewpoint, he shows that the “Revised Julian” Calendar introduced by the ecumenists of the Phanar is a veritable Trojan horse in the citadel of Orthodoxy, which has caused untold damage to the liturgical life of the Church. This is by far the most detailed survey of the calendar question ever to have appeared in English and is profusely illustrated.
More information...
$7.95


more description

Available here

Re: Altar Girls #89372
10/12/04 08:36 PM
10/12/04 08:36 PM
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djs Offline
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Quote
In this comprehensive study of the calendar issue, Father Cassian refutes the “received view” that the Gregorian Calendar is more precise astronomically than the Julian Calendar, proving with an abundance of scientific evidence that it is impossible, given what we know about time and space, to devise any calendar that would be entirely accurate.
Huh? leaving aside the accuracy / precision swap - what does the impossibility of an entirely accurate/precise calendar have to do with evaluating the relative accuracy/precision of two different calendars? :rolleyes:

Re: Altar Girls #89373
10/13/04 04:19 AM
10/13/04 04:19 AM
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anastasios Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by djs:
Quote
In this comprehensive study of the calendar issue, Father Cassian refutes the “received view” that the Gregorian Calendar is more precise astronomically than the Julian Calendar, proving with an abundance of scientific evidence that it is impossible, given what we know about time and space, to devise any calendar that would be entirely accurate.
Huh? leaving aside the accuracy / precision swap - what does the impossibility of an entirely accurate/precise calendar have to do with evaluating the relative accuracy/precision of two different calendars? :rolleyes:
Both points are addressed in the book. The idea that the Greg. calendar is superior, and the idea that one can have an accurate calendar.

Anastasios

Re: Altar Girls #89374
10/13/04 02:03 PM
10/13/04 02:03 PM
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Anastasios,

As to schismatics, one must change to place one's self in schism, or oppose the wishes of the Synod. As the New Calendar was condemned by three synods, before is was adopted in 1920 in some jurisdictions, the Old Calendarist monks who neither changed, nor opposed the wishes of a Synod, are not schismatic, IMHO. However, those born into jurisdictions in later times which are part of the New Calendar churches, are following the leads of THEIR bishops, and as they have been told all the way up to the EP that this is acceptable, I cannot properly call them "schismatics" as they remain very much part of the church they belonged to from birth.

Gaudior, who points out that it is not my place to judge individuals for following the established traditions of their churches.

Re: Altar Girls #89375
10/13/04 03:36 PM
10/13/04 03:36 PM
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Alice Offline
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Yes- interesting that an article about the Church of Greece possibly ordaining women sparks a disscussion of- the calendar!
PLEASE, David, let's get this clear wink

...the Church of Greece, which is ultra-conservative, is not considering, nor do I believe it will ever consider, ordaining women to the priesthood! eek

(No offense intended to the Anglican Church)

Alice, who thinks this thread is starting to sound like that game of my childhood called 'telephone'!!! biggrin

Re: Altar Girls #89376
10/13/04 05:06 PM
10/13/04 05:06 PM
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Knoxville, TN
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byzanTN Offline
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by anastasios:
The issue is not accuracy but authority, chronolology, and theology. I don't have the ability to condense a 173 page book into a post online, but for those interested I would recommend this book: [QUOTE]

Thanks for the reference. It certainly appears worth reading. I wasn't concerned so much with astronomical accuracy, as with celebrations in both calendars having no relation to the actual dates on which the event celebrated originally occurred. I suspect that the originators of both church calendars, new and old, did a substantial amount of tinkering concerning date accuracy. For example, the dates for the birth of Christ in both calendars are probably not accurate. I suspect the dates assigned to many early saints are similarly not accurate.

Re: Altar Girls #89377
10/13/04 05:40 PM
10/13/04 05:40 PM
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Posts: 441
McKees Rocks, PA
Fr. Thomas Offline
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I hope I'm not misreading your post, but if I am, please forgive me. Just for sake of clarity, let's make it clear that the date for the Nativity of Christ in both calendars is December 25th.

Priest Thomas

Re: Altar Girls #89378
10/13/04 05:52 PM
10/13/04 05:52 PM
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Quote
In this comprehensive study of the calendar issue, Father Cassian refutes the “received view” that the Gregorian Calendar is more precise astronomically than the Julian Calendar, proving with an abundance of scientific evidence that it is impossible, given what we know about time and space, to devise any calendar that would be entirely accurate.

Quote
Both points are addressed in the book. The idea that the Greg. calendar is superior, and the idea that one can have an accurate calendar.
Both?
Ah, then the review should have stated:

Father Cassian refutes the “received view” that the Gregorian Calendar is more precise astronomically than the Julian Calendar, and proves with an abundance of scientific evidence that it is impossible, given what we know about time and space, to devise any calendar that would be entirely accurate.

The participial phrasing suggested a logical connection that is inherently absurd.

I am surprised that the relative accuracy of the Gregorian calendar is in dispute. I am very skeptical that this claim could be supported without fallacy. Can you give a quick overview of the argument?

Re: Altar Girls #89379
10/13/04 05:58 PM
10/13/04 05:58 PM
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Knoxville, TN
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byzanTN Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by Fr. Thomas:
I hope I'm not misreading your post, but if I am, please forgive me. Just for sake of clarity, let's make it clear that the date for the Nativity of Christ in [b]both calendars is December 25th.

Priest Thomas [/b]
I should have worded that better - haste makes waste shocked I suspect both calendars are not accurate in the dates they assign to events, when they agree, as well as, when they disagree. We have no way to verify the accuracy of those dates.

Re: Altar Girls #89380
10/13/04 06:17 PM
10/13/04 06:17 PM
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anastasios Offline
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djs,

The Gregorian Calendar and the Revised Julian Calendar will apparently somehow stop being in sync in 2800.

Also, the Gregorian Calendar fixes the date of the Equinox to March 21 when it is not really March 21 (but moveable).

I don't recall the other points. I returned the book to the library so I would have to go back and get it to delve any further.

Gaudior,

I agree completely with what you have written. Good points.

Anastasios

Re: Altar Girls #89381
10/18/04 02:14 PM
10/18/04 02:14 PM
Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 4,157
Washington, PA
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Well just to throw some gas on the fire. Over at OC.net they have proven with out a doubt the world as we know it is ending. wink an Orthodox parish is using an altar girl behind the icon screen, in the presence of a bishop none the less. Now seeing that this has happened we can stop with the this will never happen in an Orthodox Church and discuss the pros and cons of allowing altar girls. Just for the record I am opposed but do not think it will be the end of the Church or the start of women priests.

Fr. Deacon Lance

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/newboard/index.php?board=3;action=display;threadid=4386;start=0

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/newboard/attachments/9885702-M.jpg


My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Re: Altar Girls #89382
10/18/04 03:44 PM
10/18/04 03:44 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 441
McKees Rocks, PA
Fr. Thomas Offline
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Would it help to point out that he's not an OCA bishop?

Guess not.

Priest Thomas frown

Re: Altar Girls #89383
10/18/04 08:20 PM
10/18/04 08:20 PM
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Knoxville, TN
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byzanTN Offline
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Originally posted by Fr. Thomas:
Would it help to point out that he's not an OCA bishop?

Guess not.

Priest Thomas frown
What and who is he, for those of us not in OCA?

Re: Altar Girls #89384
10/18/04 10:04 PM
10/18/04 10:04 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 657
Philadelphia, PA
OrthoMan Offline
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{What and who is he, for those of us not in OCA?}

The Bishop is Bishop Seraphim of Sendai, who is not an OCA bishop but, rather, a retired bishop of the autonomous Church of Japan.

OrthoMan

Re: Altar Girls #89385
10/18/04 10:06 PM
10/18/04 10:06 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
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Crestwood, NY
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Tony Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by byzanTN:
Quote
Originally posted by Fr. Thomas:
[b] Would it help to point out that he's not an OCA bishop?

Guess not.

Priest Thomas frown
What and who is he, for those of us not in OCA? [/b]
He is bishop SERAPHIM (Sigrist) a retired bishop of the MP (former bishop of Sendai, Japan) who lives in the US.

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