Dear Forum,

I am opening up about an experience that happened yesterday in church. Please bare with me.

Our cantor has been on vacation for a few Sundays, so I, as assistant cantor, was asked to lead the singing. Our pastor is currently filling in at the Los Angeles parish because they do not have a priest. To fill in at our church, we have a newly certified bi-ritual priest. He is doing well for his fourth Sunday going solo. However, he is not Ukrainian so he cannot intone in Ukrainian.

Since our pastor is gone, we have been having combined services with the intonations in English and the responses ususally sung in Ukrainian. This is what we usually do at our parish to pacifiy those who need some Ukrainian in the service.

We come to the Litany before the Our Father. The priest attempts to intone in Ukr. but I had not noticed because I am in charge of around ten singers. The "choir" had agreed to throw in some English because the church was half American and we were doing the majority in Ukrainian. We respond "Lord Have Mercy" and "Grant this O Lord" while the priest intones in Ukrainian.

Since he was rusty, he had switched to English when a parishioner was already storming to the back. I am tapped on the shoulder and this parishioner is in my face _screaming_ saying things like "you have no right to respond in English when he intones in Ukrainian and when he intones in English you respond in English!"

He said other things of which were rude saying I have no right to be leading the choir blah blah because I happen to be an ignorant 17 year old etc.

The whole chuch heard. The Altar Servers heard inside the Holy Place. Everyone was turned around watching this scene unfold before them.

I immeadiately set down my book and exited the church because I did not want a fight in church. I was stopped when I got outside by people saying they cannot believe what happened etc. they wanted me to lead the singing etc. but I knew I couldn't stay in church because I was sinning because I was so angry and because I was thinking bad things about this man. I calmly got in my car and drove down the sreet and parked on the side of the road and relected on what happened. I was so stunned, shocked, emberressed and hurt I didn't know what to do.

I thought of returning for Communion however I was so angry I was in no shape to recieve Eucharist.

I came back an half hour later to pick up my mom and people were still coming up to me to say they were so sorry for the incident. We then left to the Ukr. Orthdox chruch for their picnic where I was approached by the parishioner in question. He did not apologize but rather _justified_ what he did and said it need to be done. I said nothing.

Now I ask you for advice. I have talked to my priest and he says to pray about it. I do not want to attend this church for a good while. I think if I see the man I will be angry and cause myself to sin. I need a breather I feel. What should I do?

He is on the parish council and is expected to be removed and a apology is expected not only to me, but to the parish because of his conduct during liturgy. I am not asking for the apology for revenge, because he distrupted the faithful who were praying and preparing to recieve Eucharist.

I know this has been a lot and I appreciate comments and discussion and your advice on what I should do.

In IC XC,
ukrainiancatholic
sinner and diak

Dear Ukrainian Catholic brother in Christ,
First, you have my complete sympathy (for whatever that may be worth) and I am sure the sympathy of others.
Next, to quote Psalm 4:4 - "Be angry but do not sin"! Holy anger can advance a good cause; sin never does.
And to quote Bishop Kallistos (Ware): "Do not grumble. PROTEST! But do not grumble!" Bringing this painful outrage to the attention of the Forum is a positive step - a factual, calm letter to the relevant bishop would also be a positive step.
Oddly enough, one of the first things to do is to speak - as peacefully as you possible can - with the priest who served the Divine Liturgy at which this altercation took place. The priest is also at this moment in need of some reassurance that the ethnolinguistic fanatic is not speaking for the parishioners. In this connection, it would be well to make sure that the parishioners fully appreciate that the reason for the substitute priest is itself painfully simple - there are not enough priests to go around. This requires us to appreciate the grace of the Sunday Divine Liturgy, no matter what the linguistic mix (or mix-up!) may be. Confusion happens from time to time; that is inherent in the human condition. But that is no reason to abuse people or start a shouting match, especially in Church - and at such a moment.
My "advice" to the ethno-linguistic fanatic (advice which he will not want!) is that he needs to realize that the Church is not there to cater to his peculiar linguistic preference. If language is what matters to him, I can readily think of three choices: a) start a language school (in which he may teach Ukrainian or whatever other language he likes), b) move to Ukraine or c) join the Dazhboh cult.
To be 17 years of age is not an offense against anybody or anything of which I am aware. Nor does your posting give any evidence of ignorance (on your part, that is - your assailant does not seem to be over-educated, to put it mildly).
What to do to separate anger from sin? The answer can be expressed easily, although the process is far from easy: at the earliest possible moment, PRAY and ask God to remove the bitterness from your heart. It will be among the most difficult prayers you have ever offered, and it will succeed.
You were probably right to think that at that specific moment you were not in the best spiritual condition to receive Holy Communion.
Apart from the presence of the ethno-linguistic fanatic, I hope the picnic was nice!

Difficult to advise on your reaction to stay away from that parish for a good while, but my instinct is to advise you to do nothing of the kind - stay put, continue to work with the liturgical music, and leave it to others to make it clear to the ethno-linguistic fanatic that further episodes of misconduct will not be tolerated.
As to apologies, I place little confidence in coerced apologies - unChristian of me perhaps, but that's me. If the man is genuinely repentant, that's another matter. In any case, he must either change his behavior or go and offer his concerns where they belong (wherever that may be).
Hope that my present words have been of at least some slight help. Incognitus

Slava Jesu Kristu,

Angry parishoners can be such fun. As a Cantor myself, the petty side of me would say to do exactly the opposite of what this guy said at the next Liturgy just to annoy him. That, however, would be un-Christian and disrespectful to God(albeit fun).
That being said, I agree with Incognitus in that the Priest needs to be involved. He is, afterall, our ultimate boss as Cantors. His instrucitons supercede the rest.


Dmitri

Agree with Incognitus - and I admire your restraint.

Would also suggest that in chatting with the priest (who probably is wondering just WHAT to expect now!) you mention how the incident happened - it's one of those perfectly understandable, not terribly uncommon things (being a cantor provides unparalleled opportunities to make a fool of yourself - publically & repeatedly )that sometimes happen when you toss languages back and forth. Not all of our churches have acoustics or sound systems of the sort that let the folks in the back immediately recognize what the folks in the front are singing - unless they are paying CLOSE attention. (Personally I would be driven CRAZY in a Liturgy where the priest intoned in one language and we were expected to respond in another - I have been "socialized" to respond in the language and key the priest hands me.)

Anyway, the appropriate response to an inadvertent linguistic bobble (if it even really was one) is to nod your head and move on. Evidently the gentleman in question hasn't learned that.

You haven't done ANYTHING wrong. Please don't avoid the church because of one hothead. Can I throw out another suggestion? Pray for the guy. Really. (Some say it's the best "revenge" ) Sounds like he needs it. It gives you an "out" if you see him, too. When you start getting angry, stop and PRAY for him, even if you have to do it with gritted teeth.

Miss Manners suggests "killing" such people "with kindness." As Christians, we can stack the deck, load the dice and cheat by dragging God into the conspiracy.

Best,

Sharon

UK,

Welcome to the world of cantoring!

In every church their is a peanut gallery (those who never participate but always attack others who do). Don't take it personal when someone yells at you. Just smile and hand them the cantor book and invite them to lead the next time. It usually shuts them up.

The cantor is a 'minister of humility.' You learn to take it from both sides of the iconostasis. Say "yes, sir!" or "yes, ma'am!" and then begin studying for the next liturgy.

Sometimes, there are those who relentlessly push your buttons at every liturgy. One learns to chuckle when one is accused of changing a parishioner's religion by simply changing a tone. Ouch!

Having someone create a scene in the temple is another story. These things should not be argued in church, but brought to the pastor's attention. You did good and didn't lower yourself to the gutter level of the man in question. This man definitely has issues.

He should be asked to make a public apology before the congregation. If not to you then to the people. He disrupted the liturgy and this was not just before you or a stunned congregation, but before God. But, of course, your pastor will decide on the appropriate remedy.

FYI: Do you know that it is a felony in the U.S. to disrupt a religious service?

Once, when our eparchy promulgated changes to the Paschal season, we got hit bad with grief-stricken parishioners. All sorts of hissy-fits sprang up and they approached us huffing and puffing. The liturgical mandate didn't have a date on it, who it was from, and why the changes were being made, so we tossed it aside. It wasn't worth the grief when the eparchy didn't arm us with an explanation why we had to change things. You eventually learn what is worth engaging in.

I would take the counsel of the parishioners seriously when they tell you that they want you to return and lead. The believers have spoken. Don't give up because of a foolish old man. He's one against many. Who, in your heart, will you listen to? Forget your experience of shock and awe. You're on a mission from God. Get a pair of shades, dude.

Cantor Joe Thur

You deserve an apology. Some one needs to talk to that man. To have and display that kind of anger in Church. Its shameful. Why should you have left? The police should have been called and have escorted him out of Church.

Nicky's Baba

dear UC:

Ditto to the above comments.

I can only add:

PLEASE DON'T LEAVE!!!

He is the one who should leave, or at the very least be assigned to the rank of penitents.

If he had a problem, HE should speak to the priest about it! What authority did he have to critize your authority or leadership!

But as you know, such people exist - esp. in our Church (seems to me) (maybe they exist in other churches I don't know, but they certainly exist in ours.)

As as you see we have all (or at least most of us) have had some sort of experience like that but we survive by God's mercy and grace. And with such experienes under our belt, God uses us to be His icons in the world, sinners though we are.

Anyways Church is where Christians gather, don't let the pagans take over!

You did absolutely well.

As you see, the entire parish is with you! No one blames you or faults you for anything. As for his behaviour, we all know what the parishioners think about him...

How sad it would be for the parish and parishioners if you left! And they were left with the him instead

And some good might even be squeezed out of this hurtful incident - e.g. other mova(language)-fascists (as one Ukrainian Studite monk referred to such people) in the parish might learn a valuable lesson in how to curb their passions and get their priorities straight!

Courage UC!

c.i.x.

Herb

AMDG
Dear UC,
Don't let some freak prevent you from fulfilling your Sunday obligation!!

That guy's obviously got some supressed anger from when he was beaten as a kid. :rolleyes:

Be not afraid!!!!

In Christ and Mary,
LatinTrad

I think that you were right to be angry, and you were also right in taking your anger elsewhere. We are, after all, supposed to settle our disputes with our brothers before coming before the Altar of God.

Form and tradition are important - but they are important to us much more than, I suspect, they are to the the Lord in heaven. I'm sure that He doesn't care a bit if we sing and pray in English or Ukrainian or Swahili or whatever language we happen to sing and pray in, because He knows 'em all - and He knows each and every one of us - and He knows if we are sincere or not (no matter how pretty we may sing or how carefully we may word our prayers).

Sounds like you were doing the best you could to accomodate everyone in your congregation and you came up against a difficult person who can't be made happy. What he said and did was most uncharitable and inappropriate. Perhaps, one can hope, he will reflect upon it and apologize of his own accord. Perhaps you might reflect upon this more and determine to forgive him in any event, which I'm sure is a difficult thing.

You sound like you are wise beyond your years. Maybe this curmodgeony guy can learn something from your example?!

Even if he were completely and 100% right in his objection, he was still completely and 100% wrong to interrupt you (and the Liturgy!) so rudely. What a maroon!!!

I think you handled it very well. In fact, I bow in homage to your restraint!!

Dear ukrainian catholic:

For a young man of your age to have held your own with such restraint and holy humility is a tribute to your letting the Holy Spirit be at work in you.

You may need a break. But let prayer and the advice of your priest weigh the most in your decision. Otherwise you might be tempted to sinful pride and that pride ruin the good work you are already doing. Then, score one for the Enemy who is always trying to break up the work of the Church and the work of Christ.

I'll keep you in my prayers. In the meantime pray

Forgive, O Lord, Lover of the souls of men, those who hate us and those who maltreat us, and cause not one of them to be lost because of me, a sinner . . .

In Christ,

BOB

Dear UkrainianCatholic:

It sounds like your parish is very fortunate to have such a generous young man as yourself to give his time and talent. I bet there are alot of folks in your church praying for you, don't let them down. Continue your good work. And I agree with those above, for you to pray for this angry man. He must be miserable about something (not making excuses for him), but for the sake of his soul he needs prayers to help him come to terms with his anger -- it is obviously poisoning him.
denise

Dear Ukrainiancatholic,

I think you are a jewel of the Christian Church and have wisdom far beyond your years.

You are clearly talented and a dedicated eastern Christian. My only reservation is that while I would happily help bear your burdens, modesty prevents me to "bare with you"

Axios

The person who did that to you was both incredibly rude with no manners and also more than lacking in Christian charity.

Please do not abandon your service. And do talk with your pastor about the incident when he returns. (You might also want to talk to the supply priest. He is probably wondering what kind of asylum he wandered into.)

You did right in removing yourself from the source of the anger and hatred. I hope the perpetrator is embarassed enough to cause serious reflection on his incredibly stupid behavior. Unfortunately, however, he'll probably show up again next Sunday emboldened by the fact that he stood up for "what is correct".

(Too bad he's probably a citizen - otherwise: "Hello, Immigration?")

Blessings!

Dear U-K;

I am sorry you had to go through that ordeal. Perhaps THEOPHAN's idea of taking a small break would be helpful.

When things get too heated, I visit another parish for one Sunday and then come home. There is nothing "disloyal" about it.

Hang in there and best of luck!
Stefan

Hi,

With emotions that make tears flow I read your account of the incidents, and the first thing I need to do is to tell you that I admire you. You proceeded through all this showing your deep Christian values.

But precisely because of this, I will dare to "demand" even more of you.

This might be a time to consider if the particular service you are performing for the Parish is adequate.

From your account, it is easy to know that you are right in your perceptions and intentions.

But Christian Service is not only about being right.

Maybe your time and talent are misplaced. Maybe there is another ministry in which you could help and that experience be more fulfilling for you and even more useful for your parish?

This other parishoner has the right to know why are your responses in English when the celebrant uses Ukrainian, but he also has the obligation to discuss this issue with you at some time OTHER than during the liturgy, and of course, insulting you because of your age is both stupid and un-Christian to the extreme.

While he still has the right to get his answer, he also needs to be corrected. I'd offer him both if I were you, but you have wisdom enough to decide this on your own.

Your priest's recommendation to pray is correct, of course, but incomplete. These things should not go unresolved, for they will come back in the future. You need to close the issue with charibale action. You need it, he needs it and your parish needs it.

As for Dr. John's comment:

I hope this is a just tasteless joke. The consequences of involving the Bureau of Immigration are totally out of proportion of the insults. This would be uncharibable, and it would wipe out all the morally laudable actions taken so far.

You are in our prayers.

Shalom,
Memo.

I'm sure Dr. John was just kidding.

But it does remind me of something a priest once said to me at the local Ukrainian parish. He was obviously born in Ukraine, but felt that all the services should be in English, because English is the vernacular in this country. He said the only reason he figured they had Ukrainian services at all was because the "older folks" were so used to them. I noticed he had a point - a lot more young people, including young Ukrainian born people, at the English Liturgy.

I figure vive la difference and offer both.

Dear UkrainianCatholic,

For 17, you show a lot of strength and maturity. Most of us wouldn't have had the guts to step in for the cantor in the first place.

This thug humiliated himself, not you. First of all to let loose such rage right before the "Our Father", or right after the Consecration speaks volumes about his faith. There are many people who mouth the words during Liturgy but miss the point entirely. He sounds like one of them.
You were right to walk away. Think about the consequences of staying and lowering yourself to his level? You definitley took the high road here. If you need a week to pull it together take it. Should you leave? No way! Pray for God's help to forgive the old guy, and be thankful you aren't his kid!

Sam

Bravo to you for your time, talent, fortitude and grace! You set a fine example for our youth -- I would pray that there be more like you! First, a breather is sometimes in order -- but do not let the actions of this person drive you from your loves -- Christ, your church, and your cantoring! Second, I wouldn't advise turning your vocation and avocation elsewhere -- your cantor wouldn't have left you in a position to cantor if you weren't readyand willing to do it! There's always rotten apples in no matter what barrel (uhn profession or talent) you live. Third, speak to the celebrating priest AND speak with your own priest. Fourth, do not confrtont this parishioner again. If he chooses to approach you, use your grace -- be polite and direct him to Rev. Father -- with a smile! Keep up your terrific mission! I applaud you! Mrs. H.

UC,

Well, I think the forum has spoken.

Cantor Joe Thur

Forum,

Khrystos po sered nas, Christ is amoung us.

Much prayers of thanksgiving for all of your advice and help during these few days. I have recieved many phone calls these past few days from parishioners.

It looks like he will be removed from the Pastoral Council because "he is not displaying Christian and contructive leadership."

My father called him and he was very defesive of what he did and wants to discuss it face to face, which isn't possible because my parents leave tommorow for several weeks.

I do not think I will be at church this Sunday. The main cantor won't be there either so I think the people will have to fend for themselves. I more than likely will attend the Byzantine or Orthodox church. I am afraid if I attend church, I will not be in a forgiving and open heart because I will be uncomfortable because I know I will sin everytime I see him and reflect on the situation.

I will fast and pray until this Sunday, before I make a final decision, in order to quiet my soul and listen....

Thank you all again for your Christian love and support.

-ukrainiancatholic
unworthy diak and sinner

O Lord, in your anger rebuke me not,
chasten me not in your wrath;
Have pity on me, O Lord, for I am weak;
heal me. O Lord, for my bones are troubled,

And my soul is troubled exceedingly
but you, O Lord, how long?

Return, O Lord, and free my soul,
deliver me for the sake of your love.
For in death no one remembers You,
and in the Abyss, who will sing your praise?

I am exhausted with my moaning:
shall I weep every night upon my bed
and drench my couch with tears?
My eyes are troubled with weeping,
I am worn out because of all my enemies.

Begone from me, all you evil-doers,
for the Lord has heard my voice of lament;
The Lord has heard my appeal,
the Lord has acceded to my prayer.

Let all my enemies be greatly shamed and vexed.
let them at once be routed and mightly brought down.


From the Sixth Psalm of David, King of Israel
-A Prayer in TIme of Trail-

Dear UC,

I have deliberately stayed out of this being Latin .

However things like this are not unheard of among us too.

It has caused you great pain and you have coped with it well.

I am glad that members of your Parish are supporting you - that's as it should be and they obviously feel that the incident should not have happened.

Please pray about this weekend - if your cantor is still away and you decide for what are good reasons to go elsewhere this Sunday [ and I don't think any of us would blame you ] please consider one thing - are you 'punishing' the Parish for the actions of one foolish man ?

Whatever you decide my prayers - and I am sure the prayers of all of us here, will be with you.

May our Blessed Lady, Mary ever virgin, Mother of us all, and my beloved Mistress keep you safe in Her most tender care.

Anhelyna [the lopsided Latin]

Anhelyna,

I do not mean to punish them, butrather let them sing without their two leaders.

However, IMHO the parishioner is question should lead the singing and do the Apostol and tropars and kondaks in Ukrainian without any music, all from memory.

Ah but you see UC, if you and the Cantor are both absent the Parish have lost their leaders and whether you mean to punish them or not - they will be punished as they will have to rely on their own resources. And after all it was not the Parish who offended - just one foolish man. A parish which is used to being led by cantors , musically falls apart if left to their own devices

I do think though that your other suggestion is very well worth working on He [ the parishioner who thinks he knows best] should be asked to act as Cantor - and as you say - do everything from memory. A truly brilliant solution.

Now can you manage to get the Priest to co-operate with that ?

Anhelyna

UC:

A parish is like a family. Everyone has some old curmudgeon in the extended family. He's often the one no one tells anyone about or mentions when one is trying to impress someone. He's everyone's "old uncle Sad for lack of a good name to cast aspersions on.

No one gives up because of what he says. Most of the family lets him blast off and then ignores him or simply tells him to sit down.

I have to agree with the people who have counselled you to stay the course. You have a God-given gift that belongs to your family, your parish. Don't bury it in the ground for this Sunday. Your parish counts you as one of its leaders and your persistence in the face of trial will confirm their high opinion of you in that so many have contacted you to tender support.

You may need a rest, but don't take it while the regular cantor is away. It'll take a lot out of you, but so did the Passion take a lot out of Our Lord. When they slapped Him and spit on Him, He didn't even open His Mouth. Imitate Him. Go in there next Sunday and show them what a Christian does. He takes the blows and thanks God for being insulted for the work done for the Glory of God.

I've put you into my prayers so that you don't fall and that you don't give up.

Christ is indeed in our midst. As He promised, He is and always will be.

In Christ and with you in spirit,

BOB

UC-

I agree with Anhelyna. If your regular cantor isn't going to be there then sorry buddy- you have to be there. I sincerely doubt the guy would get away with this type action twice.
Sometimes as adults we just have to suck it up-this is the kind of stuff that separates the men from the boys.

Don't worry. We will all be with you in spirit this weekend! Go!

Sam

It is discouraging whenever we witness parishioners (or clergy) at their worst behavior. If the situation is not fixed, people will be reluctant to risk serving as cantors in the future in the parish, as long as the instigator gets away with his behavior. I hope that the parish priest is able to take corrective action. Otherwise, he will have increasing problems finding help for his own ministry. Fortunately, he has many possible channels available to help you depending on what he finds best in your parish- key parish leaders, family members, caring confrontation, etc.

I hope this doesn't permanently discourage you, and that you are able to get back on track, but without key support it could continue not to be a pretty picture. I speak from personal experience where 2 readers and a choir director eventually left an OCA parish, because the rector would not intervene in such stuff.

Dear UC:

Aren't Christians fun!?!

Actually, most organized groups, religious or secular, have their share of criticizers.

Here's a suggestion based on a personal experience...

Our mission church must set up and take down EVERYTHING each time we have a Liturgy, as we meet in a Catholic school gymnasium. Of course, it's hard to find folks who will come an hour or more before Liturgy to help set up. One of the more labor-intensive tasks is setting up chairs (yes, I know, we could do away with them entirely).

Anyway, one Sunday following Liturgy, one or our members told the guy who handles chair setup to put four inches of space between each chair so people's shoulders didn't touch. For a split second I was sure I'd have to pry J's hands away from the guy's neck. Instead, J turned to him and calmly said: "We are here at 8:30 every Sunday morning. You are more than welcome to join us and to make sure the chairs are placed the way you want them." The guy turned around and walked away. Nothing more was said.

So...consider, asking this man if he would like to help cantor, as he must have vastly more experience than you...a "mere" 17-year-old.

Good luck and God's grace.

UC,

Well, once again, the forum decided: you should return to cantor and the elderly gentleman should be invited to cantor too. Since he is such the expert at such matters, I am sure his talent and vast knowledge will be a plus. Throw the ball back in his court.

I agree with the idea that leaving the cantor stand vacant (due to pride?) in order to teach a lesson is misguided. It was the people who support you and want you to stay, not some misguided crank. Think of how they would feel if they were left to lead themselves? It takes an amount of courage to lead others in singing. They need your courage, and returning to take the lead again will make them much more proud (and relieved).

The cantor is a minister of humility. Cantors are also a very sensitive lot. By not being there to lead cantor will be a form of punishment for the people, who are not guilty of this man's sin. If you someday had a child who threw a tantrum at a store and totally embarrassed you, would you abandon him/her and all your other children as a form of punishment? Parental love goes beyond selfishness.

Marriage and children are a great opportunity to knock down selfishness a degree or two. My wife has served in the Latin Church for years in music ministry. She was responsible for starting at least three music ministry groups before coming to the Byzantine Catholic Church. She now serves in our little schola doing harmony and chanting the pripiv melodies during vespers. Since she began attending my church back in our dating days, she always gave me suggestions how to improve my cantor skills. Today, after every liturgy, she gives me a lecture on what I did wrong. :p I never earn a star.

So, get used to it. Can't let the cantor stand remain empty because of issues. Ultimately, its all for the glory of GOD, not us.

God bless!
Joe Thur

UC:

Someone once remarked to me that if I were thrown into a stadium filled with lions on the one side and Christians on the other, I should take my chances with the lions!

Funny how we who have the True Faith seem to excel in that one "virtue"--tearing each other to pieces.

Go figure.

In Christ,

BOB

theophan<<Someone once remarked to me that if I were thrown into a stadium filled with lions on the one side and Christians on the other, I should take my chances with the lions!>>

Ugh!!! Sounds like the same kind of reasoning that some Orthodox Greeks expressed in the past when they said they'd prefer the Muslim turban to the Papal tiara. (The Muslims, at least, would, unlike Rome, allow the Orthodox to keep their faith intact without addition, dilution or subtraction.)

OrthodoxEast

Rich.

OrthodoxEast:

It's not reasoning. It's a throw-away line the man used when he was at the end of the day, at the end of his rope, and just plain tired of the fact that sometimes you can't please anyone let alone some of the people.

You get up the next morning, remember that the Lord is still in charge, ask for His help, and laugh before digging in for a new try (because whatever the problem is, it, too, will pass away).

In Christ,

BOB

The problem may pass away, but some people enjoy the "fun" of bashing the other guy so much that they seem unable to let things pass away.

Forum,

Again, thank you for all of your support/advice/replies/personal messages etc. I am still undecided on what to do regarding tommorow. I am haing a really hard time thinking that I will have to walk into church and be reminded of what happened and honestly, what I believe it boils down to, I do not want to see this man for a while.

Right now, I think I will go to one of the local Orthodox churches.

-uc

Two Lungs:

No question.

Dear UC,

Don't let this stupid man chase you away for good.

However see how you feel in the morning.

Put it in the Lord's hands - He will tell you what you should do.

Many prayers

Anhelyna

Oooh, UK, what a miserable situation.

I agree with the others who have said pray, and I add, we cannot know what God's design is. If you feel strongly that you cannot go back this week and go somewhere else instead, the new focus may not only give you some insight, but open you to a new experience. It's hard to sing let alone focus on God when someone is sending arrows at you.

I agree with those who think this man's behavior should be chastized somehow. Removing him from Parish Council doesn't seem enough.

In my opinion, I don't see your non-attendance as punishment of the congregation. If doing what is in one's heart and feels right before God is punishing someone else, then we do that every time we say "no" to something. And believe me, mothers do that a lot!

UK, my prayers for you, too. Please let us know what transpires.

OOps. UKie... UC!!!! Sorry, UC! Long day.

It's now Sunday evening and I've been away from the Forum for several days being in Holy Pennsylvania for work.

I hope that you did a bang up job this a.m. Had I gotten here before, perhaps I would have suggested putting a 0.38 in your belt and moving the sport jacket back when the person was in sight-line. [Note to Memo: Just joking!!]

I'd love to know if the gentleman crankster appeared at Liturgy, and if he had the audacity to once again make a scene. It doesn't matter if you're seventeen or seventy-teen, your service is wonderful and very much needed. And the community, I'm VERY sure, is sincerely grateful for your presence and voluntary service.

Blessings!

Dear UC, you can truly call yourself an experienced cantor/diak after a few occasions like this .

This likely won't be the last occurrance of this sort in your cantorial career, and I think you did very well in your restraint.

There are plenty of persons of this ilk around, who are more concerned with linguistics than what is unfolding around them with the Heavenly Liturgy. It's not the words or their meaning that is important to this kind, nor the liturgical actions underway, but the language itself. As Sharon mentioned above, we must pray for them. At least the other parishoners were there to comfort and support you.

God sends those kind to us to hone up on our charity and patience.

UC-
How did your Sunday turn out?
Sam

Sam,

I actually did not go. The main diak was there so I wasn't needed like I have been the past three or four weeks. I went to the (gorgeous) Serbian Orthodox parish up the hill.

http://www.stgeorge-soc.org/

In the words of my future governor "I'll be back, baby!"

-uc

OK. But please make sure that you talk with your priest about what happened. He's bound to get the rainbow of descriptions - it's best he hear it from you.

As someone who 'volunteers' to assist with the liturgical action through music, your very presence is an affirmation of the common efforts that are our Liturgy. Please don't let this unfortunate incident drive you from your community.

Blessings!

Dr. John,

I have spoken with the pastor and he was aware that I would proabably not attend this past Sunday. I will be back… maybe this comming Sunday, maybe not.

I will be at the Dormition Liturgy later this week because no one goes to those but me, the other cantor, and one or two SSPX types.

-uc

Dear UC:

"Maybe . . . maybe not!"

Your present disposition reflects the dilemma your are in: a Solomonic choice between your mother's Church, UGCC, and your father's Church, UO (UOC-MP, UOC-KP, or UAOC?).

It's the Ukrainian Church in microcosm; and I commiserate with you.

Hopefully, all of the contending parties will soon unite under one "Kyivan Patriarchate!"

Amado

Isn't that a Holy Day of Obligation for the Ukrainians?

Dear UC,

Don't wait too long before returning - the longer the wait the more difficult it will be to return - take it from one who knows

Still you will be there on Friday, and Our Mother will welcome you back with open arms on this Her Feast.

God Bless

Amado,

Yes my dad is Orthodox, but my step-father is Jewish. I personally do not see jurisdictions as set in stone. We are all one Kyivan Church with many divided factions. one day, we will stop the petty politics and unite. The Faith is the same for all of the Kyivan churches. Some of it has been Latinized, some of it (dare I say) Russified, some of it lost, some of it watered down. It's a matter of time and politics and re-adjustment to the fulness of how the Kyivan Faith and Church is suppost to be lived.

Lemko Rusyn,
Yes it is a Holy Day of Obligation. Two things: our parishioners come from Los Angeles, Desert Hot Srpings, Tijuana Mexico, and all over Southern California. Most parishioers drive over 25 minutes to get to church so for most older and professional people, they can only do so much.

The second thing is that it is not a Ukrainian Saint's day or Ukr. Independence Day or Taras Shevchenko day so you know, if it's not one of those, why is it obligatory :p

Our Lady's Slave,

No worries. As I said earlier, quoting the words of my future governor, "I'll be back."

-uc

Dear UC,

I think I understand a bit of what you are going through.

I've had it done to me before in a similar manner. It is always upsetting when our "patriotic" laity decide to make a public demonstration in church in defence of Ukrainian national security.

Where would Ukraine and its people be without them?

If they were back in Ukraine, the country would never have been invaded and taken over!

Or else, the only reason they left there to come here was because, as one erstwhile person told me, "they ran out of ammunition!"

You are hurt because this, how shall I say, IDIOT presumed to question your religious/cultural loyalties.

(Like what I did over the issue of ROCOR).

He was at fault, not you. And we cannot expect him to change his views - critical, courteous thinking is a standard too high for him to attain(could he be related to me do you think?)

There is a wonderful Ukrainian saying that applies to that, how shall I say, XAM that goes like this: "Such a bent-over person only the grave will straighten."

And if he is such a bleeding heart Ukie, why didn't he start yelling at the fact that your parish already had a non-Ukie Priest at the Altar?

He allowed that?

Shame on him! A real, how shall I say, "XPYHb!"

If I haven't made you feel at least a little bit better by now, sorry, I don't know what else to say.

And do take Lemko's advice as he urges you to return to church despite this upset!

Alex

UC:

Glory be to Jesus christ! Glory be to Him forever and ever!!

Just wanted to see how you were doing. Have had you in my prayers. Don't let go of the Faith because of one man and as I have said here before--let no one disturb the peace that Christ gives you from above (the peace of soul that the world cannot understand nor can it attain). Your gift you offer to Him, not to someone who cannot understand what it is supposed to be used for.

In Christ,

BOB

Alex,

My first cousin married a XAM- that is really his last name! We do have fun witht hat one.

I think it all happened because there are other choir members he could have screamed at but I think I was picked out because I am young; he wouldn't dare yell at the other starosty.

The logic is messed up because when he was screaming at me, he was referencing the fact I am leading the singing, but at the Pravoslavniy picnic he denied he knew i was leading as diak. It totally beats me.

I will probably attend this next Sunday. I need my church as much as it needs me.

funny thing is, for the longest time, I was the only Altar Server, and he would get on my case for doing "Russian bows" and such. In fact, one time during the Little Enterance one time, he grabbed my arm and said "You crossed your self wrong, everything you have done today so far is wrong and I will show you later the way it should be."

He showed me when to kneel and ring the bells for Sanctfication during the Mass and how to hold the priest's garment out. He also told me that using the Teplota (warm water) was Orthodox let alone Russian and needs to stop.

I actually quit serving a few years back because he was too much and I was more interested in music anyways. We now have a subdeacon that covers for me so that I can sing full time.

Bob,
Thank you for your prayers and personal messages I have recieved. It is greatyly appreciated and needed.

Failed Altar Server and Struggling Diak,
-uc

I think you should change your name to Job.

Blessings!

>>>>I will probably attend this next Sunday. I need my church as much as it needs me.<<<

Good for you, UC! Go back. He's just one old man.
Sam

AMDG
Dear UC,
Just to share an anecdote (I hope people won't mind the Western Stuff), when I was a kid serving the Tridentine Mass, there was a Master who was absolutely out of control. He would wave his arms at the other servers (we called him the Windmill), give directions out loud in a silent Church, and make a fool out of everybody especially (poor guy) himself. He destroyed the ambiance of the Liturgy so badly that he was banned by the priests from serving (he didn't really need to be serving anyway, since he was in his 40s at the time).
I feel your pain --just don't consider yourself a failure--it's all for the Lord "who giveth joy to my youth." I agree with Doctor John about the Job thing.

In the Merciful Hearts,
LatinTrad

Dear UC:
I think the old guy caught everyone off guard, and so no one came to your defense.

I bet if he tries it again one of the other parishaners will say something.
denise

UC,

I really hope the problem you encountered has been solved. Sometimes it's just a matter of coming to understand how a person thinks, so that you will be better prepared to deal with them in the future. That doesn't necessarily mean you have to agree with them. You need not even be offended by their behavior! If it's during the Liturgy, the best thing to do is to ignore them altogether, because you are there to help lead the congregation in worship, and are too busy with the service itself. Consider what is truly important at that time. That's what you tried to do.

After the service, you might talk it over with your priest, to see if he wants you to do anything differently. Under the circumstances, he's likely to thank you for your patience and respect for the service itself you are rendering for the parish.

Much of my service in our parish is volunteering with our beloved teens, so it pains me to think that someone would not realize that a teen who loves Our Lord through cantoring is a great treasure. For myself, I pray from time to time that I will not be a stumbling block to the young, since it would be better to wear a millstone necklace and drown in the sea, if I recall Our Lord's words.

For that reason, we should pray that the disruptor will not go into eternal damnation, since that may be the path upon which he has embarked.

Dear UC,

Well, I've considered everything you've said about that man from as Christian a point of view as I can.

He is, how shall I say, a real asshole, a "dupa volova!"

There is no such thing as a "Russian bow!" Russians were always "unbowed" - they had an empire!

The true "Ukrainian bow" is to lie prone on the floor until somebody else who isn't Ukrainian tells you to get up . . .

Just goes to show you how much this idiot really knows.

Do you have his home address?

Alex

You know my grandmother came from Berezhany in Ukraine and if she were you, she would have told that man "Ide potsilui psa pid feest". She used to tell me that when I got on her nerves and than I used to stand there sarcastically with my mouth wide open until she threw something at me.
Lauro

Alex,

I do have his address… are you implying that we egg it???

This man is also very very very Anti-Jewish and I was thinking that another factor for his behavior is that my dad is Jewish and I was raised in a Eastern Christian/Jewish home. I even went to a Jewish elementary school so I learned to read and write, etc.

Next time the priet intones "Approach with faith and the Awe of God," instead of responding "Blahosloven khto yde.." I should sing "Baruch haba b'Shem Adonai!"

But I don't feel like starting a riot…… well, at least not yet muahahahhaha :p

-uc

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MWAHAHAHAHA indeed!

UC, if he does indeed consider you "Jewish," it's a further statement of ignorance. Judaism is transmitted matrilineally.

Cheers,

Sharon
(Bat-Mitzvahed years before she was Baptized)

Dear UC,

You should tell him that the first Ukrainian Saint EVER was "St Luke the Jewish" (Svyatey Luka Zhydyaty), a Jewish convert, who was with ST Volodymyr during the Baptism of Kyivan Rus'.

Some of the greatest defenders of Ukrainian statehood were Jews such as the French Jewish journalist Alain des Roches who, at one time, said that, on a per capita basis, Ukraine had the FEWEST anti-Semites than any European country in Europe.

So many Ukrainians helped Jews during the War. In my little family alone, my father, grandfather, uncles, and aunt risked their lives to help Jews escape.

My grandfather hid his Jewish friend, Ravlik, in his basement until the SS began a house-to-house search.

Ravlik, that blessed man and martyr, knew that if he were caught at grandfather's home, my grandparents would share his fate.

He made a run for it early and the SS finally caught him and shot him by the town's river. Ravlik fell headlong into the water, dead, as blood flowed from his mouth along with the flowing water.

And there is a whole section on the website of Yad Veshem dedicated specifically to Ukrainians who saved Jews.

The man giving you grief is a total disgrace.

If I have the opportunity to meet you, please do introduce me to him.

My Ukrainian is very good.

And I can use it to excellent effect when I want to.

And I want to, especially in his case.

Alex

Dear Lauro,

What a small world!

My father's family came from Berezhany too!

He and his brothers' photos are contained in the book "Berezhanshchyna."

Perhaps we are distantly related?

We already share a common concern about Basilians!

Alex

Alex,

I guess Ukraine's first saint and I share the same name

-uc

Uh oh. Alex is asking for addresses.

So, how does one say "pipe bomb" in Ukrainian?

Blessings!

PS: Our Lord warned us about the "poor" being with us always; what He did not mention was the crazies. The poor we can help with food, shelter, clothing, etc. The crazies, well - that's another story.

Dear UC,

So you are "Luke the Jewish" too?

He should be your patronal saint then!

God bless and don't let the crazies bother you, as Dr John said.

We can always count on Dr John not to say anything controversial that might upset us!

Alex

So, how does one say "pipe bomb" in Ukrainian?

Pyrohy z kapustom (pyrohy with sauerkraut). That would be my weapon of choice.....

In Ukrainian, it would be "z kapustoju". "Z kapustom" is northern Lemko dialect of Rusyn.