The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
Annlouise, Taylor, Randy Danielson, TAFrazer, PNCC Random Guy
5,770 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 79 guests, and 27 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Church of St Cyril of Turau & All Patron Saints of Belarus
Byzantine Nebraska
Byzantine Nebraska
by orthodoxsinner2, December 11
Church of the Holy Trinity (UGCC) - Brazil
Church of the Holy Trinity (UGCC) - Brazil
by Santiago Tarsicio, March 17
Papal Audience 10 November 2017
Papal Audience 10 November 2017
by JLF, November 10
Upgraded Russian icon corner
Upgraded Russian icon corner
by The young fogey, October 20
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics35,056
Posts414,079
Members5,770
Most Online3,380
Dec 29th, 2019
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3
#90172 04/17/02 05:53 AM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 268
FAW Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 268
Quote
Originally posted by Two Lungs:
Dear Lance,

There was some talk of declaring a Kyivan Patriarchate, rather than a Ukrainian one, but that idea probably would still not sit well within the non-Ukrainian parishes.

Probably the best way to bring the Churches together would be to keep the existing Metropolias, and establish a worldwide Patriarchate including them all.

Pilgrim and Odd Duck


The Odd Duck raises some points that I think are noteworthy.

My main argument is this: To combine, I prefer re-unite, what is now known as the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church and the Ruthenian Greek Catholic Church into one worldwide church.
"Carpatho-Ruthenians" need not fear being "Ukrainianized" an vice versa. Absolute tolerance and respect for unique regional custums. Under one Kyivan Patriarchate. There is strength in our unity and there is no reason to assume that such "Ukrainianization" will take place, because such behavior may be found in our past. We will then be working together with one voice, sharing our resources and strengths.

Perhaps there could even be a worldwide patriarchate of all Byzantine Catholics in Kyiv.
At first glance this may seem obsurd, however, upon deeper reflection, such an idea is not so far fetched or unrealistic. I'll elaborate on this tomorrow, but I thought I would just throw the whole thing out, after the "duck man" kinda, sorta, alluded to the same thing.

Words to ponder:

"To believe what has not occurred in history will not occur at all, is to argue disbelief in the dignity of man" Mahatma Ghandi

In Christ,
ALity

#90173 04/17/02 04:35 PM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 2,960
J
Member
Offline
Member
J
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 2,960
Ality,

Since there is no unified Kievan Church, I have to accept the separate jurisdictions as it now stands. Since I am in the Ruthenian Church, I will remain there. This doesn't mean that there shouldn't or wouldn't be greater cooperation between the two Catholic Churches (Rusyn and Ukrainian).

In all this talk about unification, I often wonder how the chant would sound like? Whose chant? OCA pastors on my paternal side of the family have often remarked how they missed their Rusyn plainchant due to the Russification of their Church. Such a synergy may be certain for the future, but will one church be absorbed into the other? Will we be braced for such a merger?

But the problems remain nonetheless. Ours is a shrinking Church. What I fear most are the decisions made after a crisis has run its course. Such 'emergency-crisis / Johnny-come-lately' decisions are often ill-fated. On a previous post, I linked a page showing statistics on our church's population. Since WWII our church membership has declined 50%. In reading Anastasios' recent post, the Orthodox Church's population has been overstated too. Can we continue in such a downward spiral without greater cooperation? or will we still be arguing over minute matters as we lie on our deathbed as the last Eastern Christian turns off the temple lights in this country?

One little detail: Our sister Orthodox Church, the Carpatho-Russians in Johnstown, are tied to the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople. If we are to consider our Orthodox counterpart (assuming we will) then a lot more work will have to be done between Kiev and Constantinople. How will they fit in? Will we be making ourselves a much larger problem to unwind? How about the Ukrainian Orthodox?


Joe

[ 04-17-2002: Message edited by: J Thur ]

#90174 04/17/02 04:58 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 268
FAW Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 268
Quote
Originally posted by J Thur:
Ality,


In all this talk about unification, I often wonder how the chant would sound like? Whose chant? OCA pastors on my paternal side of the family have often remarked how they missed their Rusyn plainchant due to the Russification of their Church. Such a synergy may be certain for the future, but will one church be absorbed into the other? Will we be braced for such a merger?

On a previous post, I linked a page showing statistics on our church's population. Since WWII our church membership has declined 50%

Can we continue in such a downward spiral without greater cooperation? or will we still be arguing over minute matters as we lie on our deathbed as the last Eastern Christian turns off the temple lights in this country?

Joe

[ 04-17-2002: Message edited by: J Thur ]


I have stated previously that issues over peculiar regional traditions, such as chant, rushniki, etc. should be honored and no one church should absorb the other. Each individual parish would determine the chant of their community. So, in the USA, if we reunited tomorrow, your "Ruthenian" parish would keep your Ruthenian plain chant, and my "Ukrainian" parish would preserve Galacian chant.

With that precedent established, how can one church absorb another? Ultimately, our theology, liturgical rubrics, canon law, and "major" traditions (feastdays, etc.) are the same, so there is nothing to absorb or change.

Can you show me how our Chruches are so different aside from chant and architecture? After that how are we significantly different in theology, rubrics, etc.? We both follow the Ruthenian Recension and all of our "differences" are cosmetic and not major divergances in tradition, as I see it.

We cannot continue in the downward spiral that we find ourselves in, not when we have the "true faith". We must unite into one corporate body, like businesses do, and consolidate our efforts into one, organized front with which we will grow in faith and proclaim the Gospel of Christ to all nations.

Do you (would you) support the unity of our two Churches under the conditions I have set forth?

In Christ,
ALity

#90175 04/17/02 05:16 PM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 2,960
J
Member
Offline
Member
J
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 2,960
"Do you (would you) support the unity of our two Churches under the conditions I have set forth?"


Have our bishops? Some may say that the fact that we are all 'united' under the umbrella of the Eastern Congregation that this is already the case with one little difference: each of those particular churches has their own bishop(s).

You still left out the reality of the Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Church under Constantinople. What are your suggestions? They seemed to have preferred the missionary home of their Apostles, Cyril and Methodius.

Joe

#90176 04/17/02 06:38 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,184
Likes: 5
Member
OP Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,184
Likes: 5
Dear Cantor Joe and Deacon-in-spe Lance,

I was just kidding, guys! wink

I wouldn't dream of robbing the Ruthenian clerical cradle, not unless I absolutely had to and there was no other alternative smile .

But really, joining the Ukrainian Catholic Church is up to the individual.

Besides, it isn't so easy. We do have standards you know smile

You have to make a vow to begin Ukrainian language studies for three years if you don't speaka da language yet.

And then this vow is supplanted with another, life-long one, similar to the Great Schema, where you must constantly work on the proper Ukrainian accent, memorize one poem of Shevchenko per year and never criticize Ukrainian cooking in public smile .

And, frankly, my dears, I don't think you could manage such stringent standards of behaviour smile .

So don't flatter yourselves!

Consider yourselves lucky to have even been considered! biggrin

In all humility,

Alex

[ 04-17-2002: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

#90177 04/17/02 06:46 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,184
Likes: 5
Member
OP Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,184
Likes: 5
Dear Piotr,

Since Deacon-in-spe Lance seems a bit touchy on the subject of a role for presbyteras, I'll address my comments to you only smile .

The fact that the Russian Church has a course for Matushkas is excellent and shows how far-reaching their pastoral vision really is.

There's good in everyone, to be sure smile

Surely, in places like Russia, Ukraine and Eastern Canada, the role of the Presbytera in the parish is a given.

Elsewhere in more democratic jurisdictions smile the Presbytera is certainly entitled to choose how she will exercise her role.

And there always is one, even if it is supporting her husband in his sacerdotal role.

It could be a minimalist one, or a maximalist one, but there is ALWAYS a role for the wive of a clergyman to be played.

And I know parishes whose meddling in the affairs of their priest's marriage led to tragic consequences.

Lance is the strong character type, would you say? smile

His Presbytera is in good hands, God helping him!

Alex

#90178 04/17/02 07:22 PM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 2,960
J
Member
Offline
Member
J
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 2,960
Alex,

No need for standards. I believe I have dual-citizenship already. smile My grandparents were parishioners and my parents were married at St. Mary's Ukrainian Catholic Church in Spangler, PA (now called Northern Cambria). You will also see "Thur" on a number of tombstones at the Ukrainian Catholic cemetery. Never had reason to complain about the food. wink But this is getting off the thread's topic.

Joe

[ 04-17-2002: Message edited by: J Thur ]

#90179 04/17/02 07:34 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,184
Likes: 5
Member
OP Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,184
Likes: 5
Dear Cantor Joe,

I don't think this is getting off the thread because if that is the sum total of our differences, then we really are one Church!

The Kyivan Church has regional rites as well, including that of Volyn, Galicia (not the latinized rite, the original one), Kyivan, Poltavan, Bukovinian, Carpatho-Ruthenian etc.

I think the real difference between us has nothing to do with history or liturgy, but more with the length of time our respective groups have been in North America and the impact of its mainstream culture on our people.

But you have every right to your own Church, hierarchy etc.

Is it just me or do some people here think I actually have authority over the Ruthenian and Tridentine Churches? smile

FYI, I don't!

Alex

#90180 04/17/02 08:13 PM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 2,960
J
Member
Offline
Member
J
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 2,960
"The Kyivan Church has regional rites as well, including that of Volyn, Galicia (not the latinized rite, the original one), Kyivan, Poltavan, Bukovinian, Carpatho-Ruthenian etc."


Alex,

Please correct my historical knowledge. If the Carpatho-Ruthenian Church is a regional rite of the Kyivan Church, then what rite was it for one hundred years before St. Vladimir accepted Christianity in 988? I'm always interested in our Church history and your insights would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Can you also comment on how we are to consider our sister Orthodox Church, the Carpatho-Russians, as they are already united with the See of Constantinople, the see of their patrimony? Thanks a bunch, again.

Joe

#90181 04/17/02 08:36 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,184
Likes: 5
Member
OP Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,184
Likes: 5
Dear Cantor Joe,

St Volodymyr baptized Kyivan Rus' in 988, to be sure.

But so did his grandmother St Olha the Great before him.

And then there is St Photios of Constantinople sending missionaries to baptize Rus' under the Blessed Princes Mykola Askold and Dir.

Volodymyr's Baptism of Rus' was really the final stage of an acceptance of Orthodox Christianity that really began with the Christian colonies in the Crimea, St. Clement of Rome et al. that later intensified with Cyril and Methodius.

So Christianity wasn't non-existent throughout Kyivan Rus' in 987 and then suddenly appeared because Volodymyr told everyone to come down for a picnic on the river ...

The idea that 1988 had no meaning for Carpatho-Rusyns is therefore quite ridiculous, although I mean that in a nice way. All children of Kyivan Rus' share in the Baptism of Askold and Dir, and of St Olha and of St Volodymyr as these were state acts.

As for Constantinople, Kyivan Christians looked and still look to Constantinople as our Mother Church, the First among Equals in the East.

The fact that the Carpatho-Russians are in union with Constantinople simply affirms this historic fact.

The future canonically-recognized Patriarchate of Kyiv would also be in union with its Mother, Constantinople.

The diptychs of our united Kyivan-Ruthenian Church would commemorate Rome as the first among equals in the universal Church, Constantinople as the first among equals in the East, and Kyiv as the first among equals in the Church of Kyivan-Rus', the Church of St Volodymyr, St Olha and Bl. Askold and Dir.

The regional Churches/Rites would also continue, as they have for the last thousand years, give or take a century or two.

The suggestion that the Carpatho-Rusyn Church does not share in the tradition of Kyivan Christianity is not true, with or without St Volodymyr. The Crimean Church also has its patrimony as well which is the foundation of the Kyivan Church.

By "Kyivan" one doesn't mean "Ukrainian" and there have been and are Siberian tribes that belong to the Kyivan Church, as well as Asian Orthodox Christians.

What I have outlined is, in fact, the vision of the Kyivan Church shared by both Met. Andrew Sheptytsky and Patriarch Josef Slipyj.

While I respect your position (and love your Scriptural studies!), I respectfully defer to them smile .

Don't you like Chicken Kyiv? smile

But let's not fight about this ...

Alex

#90182 04/17/02 09:43 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 268
FAW Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 268
Quote
Originally posted by J Thur:
"Do you (would you) support the unity of our two Churches under the conditions I have set forth?"


Have our bishops? Some may say that the fact that we are all 'united' under the umbrella of the Eastern Congregation that this is already the case with one little difference: each of those particular churches has their own bishop(s).

You still left out the reality of the Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Church under Constantinople. What are your suggestions? They seemed to have preferred the missionary home of their Apostles, Cyril and Methodius.

Joe


Joe . . . you are dodging the question. biggrin

I am asking you,not our Bishops.

Bishops unfortunately do more harm than good in many instances, this case being none different.

The Carpatho-Russians rescinded the union of Uzhorod/Brest/Litovsk and returned to their Mother Church. Good for them! smile

The Unions of our Ruthenian Orthodox Church with the Roman Catholic Church are not one way.

It's not like the Republic of the United States! wink

The Carpatho-Russians could also re-return back to the Catholic Church again if they so desired. And maybe they would if they witness the burying of old prejuidices and a united Rusyn Church, with enough people and political manpower that would make it nigh impossible for the Roman Church to oppress her like she (RCC) did in the past. Which by the way, as I am sure you know, is the primary reason the Carpatho Russians left communion with Rome one hundred some odd years ago!

Tuche! biggrin

Ality

[ 04-17-2002: Message edited by: Ality ]

#90183 04/17/02 09:49 PM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 2,960
J
Member
Offline
Member
J
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 2,960
Alex,

Just asking for clarification. I make a wonderful Chicken Kiev.

Joe

#90184 04/17/02 10:05 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 268
FAW Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 268
Quote
Originally posted by J Thur:
[QBThey seemed to have preferred the missionary home of their Apostles, Cyril and Methodius.

Joe[/QB]


Actually, Ss. Cyril and Methodius were under the Jurisdiction of Rome.

Ality

#90185 04/17/02 11:43 PM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 2,960
J
Member
Offline
Member
J
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 2,960
Ality,

So, let me get this straight. The Pope in Rome sent Latin missionaries to the Slavs, namely Cyril and Methodius, who were under the Patriarch of Kiev 100 years before Kiev was evangelized. Later, after the Great Schizoid, they became attached to the Patriarch of Constantinople where they adopted the Byzantine Rite, but later became Roman Catholics of the Byzantine Rite when they joined the Unia? When did they become Greek, as in Greek Catholic?

Don't you love history? I did poorly in high school. I tended to forget that history is 50% fact / 50% fiction. That was the easy part. The hard part was determining which was which.

Joe

#90186 04/17/02 11:50 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 287
R
Member
Offline
Member
R
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 287
Apparently, the saintly brothers also posed in either Latin or Byzantine vestments, depending on who was photographing them at the time. That is, if the images from Slovakia and icons from Carpathia can be equally believed.

(We know this is true also because the world in eastern Europe turned color long before it did in North America. Compare icons with the first Polaroids, for example.)

Yes, history is a wondrous thing, it's like beauty -- in the eye of the beholder.

[ 04-17-2002: Message edited by: RichC ]

Page 2 of 3 1 2 3

Link Copied to Clipboard
The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2020 (Forum 1998-2020). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5