The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
Poliscifi, The Cub, P H, Hardrada, DMP
5603 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
2 registered members (rome1453, 1 invisible), 67 guests, and 121 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Church of the Holy Trinity (UGCC) - Brazil
Papal Audience 10 November 2017
Upgraded Russian icon corner
Russian Greek Catholic Global Congress
OL EuroEast II (2007) Group
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics34,738
Posts411,958
Members5,603
Most Online2,716
Jun 7th, 2012
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3
Divine Mercy Sunday? #90751 06/19/06 06:25 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 4
SueB Offline OP
New
OP Offline
New
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 4
Can you please tell me if Divine Mercy Sunday services will be incorpoated into the Byzantine faith in the future? I understand Pope John Paul II approved this feast day and asked that it be propagated throughout the Catholic world. It would be such a loss for our Byzantine Catholics not to know about this very important feast day. I'd appreciate anything you can share with me on this. Thanks and God bless!

Re: Divine Mercy Sunday? #90752 06/19/06 06:54 PM
Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 4,157
Fr. Deacon Lance Offline
Moderator
Member
Offline
Moderator
Member
Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 4,157
No they will not. Pope John Paul promulgated the Feast of Divine Mercy for the Latin Church and said nothing of it to Eastern Catholics. It would be a loss if we Byzantine Catholics lost the Sunday of St. Thomas, which we celebrate on the Sunday after Pascha.

Fr. Deacon Lance


My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Re: Divine Mercy Sunday? #90753 06/19/06 07:40 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 311
MizByz1974 Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 311
Quote
Originally posted by SueB:
Can you please tell me if Divine Mercy Sunday services will be incorpoated into the Byzantine faith in the future? I understand Pope John Paul II approved this feast day and asked that it be propagated throughout the Catholic world. It would be such a loss for our Byzantine Catholics not to know about this very important feast day. I'd appreciate anything you can share with me on this. Thanks and God bless!
Divine Mercy Sunday is a strictly Latin thing, and is based on a theology of salvation that is foreign to the East:

The Latin Church view on salvation is legalistic, based on "satisfactionalism." In their view, even when the penitent is spared eternal "punishment" in the sacrament of reconciliation, "temporal punishment" remains (this is where the idea of purgatory came from).

In the East, there is no distinction between "eternal" and "temporal" punishment. In the sacrament of repentance, your sins are completely absolved; no further "satisfaction" is needed. Thus, in light of our theology, such a feast makes no sense.

For us, EVERY Sunday is "Divine Mercy" Sunday! smile

God bless,

Karen

Re: Divine Mercy Sunday? #90754 06/19/06 08:49 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 23
t-bone Offline
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 23
Quote
Originally posted by MizByz1974:
Quote
Originally posted by SueB:
[b] Can you please tell me if Divine Mercy Sunday services will be incorpoated into the Byzantine faith in the future? I understand Pope John Paul II approved this feast day and asked that it be propagated throughout the Catholic world. It would be such a loss for our Byzantine Catholics not to know about this very important feast day. I'd appreciate anything you can share with me on this. Thanks and God bless!
Divine Mercy Sunday is a strictly Latin thing, and is based on a theology of salvation that is foreign to the East:

The Latin Church view on salvation is legalistic, based on "satisfactionalism." In their view, even when the penitent is spared eternal "punishment" in the sacrament of reconciliation, "temporal punishment" remains (this is where the idea of purgatory came from).

In the East, there is no distinction between "eternal" and "temporal" punishment. In the sacrament of repentance, your sins are completely absolved; no further "satisfaction" is needed. Thus, in light of our theology, such a feast makes no sense.

For us, EVERY Sunday is "Divine Mercy" Sunday! smile

God bless,

Karen [/b]
Why is there such a disagreement between the East and West in this regards? To me it seems odd that there would be divergent views within the Catholic Church on this matter. Is there some sort of agreement that since it isn't permanent punishment, it's a doctrine that "doesn't matter?" Does this mean that Eastern Catholics don't have to suffer in the afterlife at all? What about us Latin Catholics? If so, maybe I should switch soon because if I'm lucky enough to get in I would still probably be in the waiting room for awhile.

Re: Divine Mercy Sunday? #90755 06/19/06 08:55 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 23
t-bone Offline
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 23
Quote
Originally posted by SueB:
Can you please tell me if Divine Mercy Sunday services will be incorpoated into the Byzantine faith in the future? I understand Pope John Paul II approved this feast day and asked that it be propagated throughout the Catholic world. It would be such a loss for our Byzantine Catholics not to know about this very important feast day. I'd appreciate anything you can share with me on this. Thanks and God bless!
I also wonder what we should take from other religions and incorporate into our own. As a Latin Catholic, should I deny the practices of the East that may help me grow in my spirituality and closeness to God? Should I only embrace them and practice them as my own if I am willing to completely make the change to Byzantine Catholic? I think it's difficult because our traditions/histories/cultures mean so very much to us, as they should. Is the answer to take up a devotion on a personal level? I really don't know.

Re: Divine Mercy Sunday? #90756 06/19/06 09:03 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 23
t-bone Offline
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 23
By the way, I'm not just trying to get my post count up. Also, I'm not saying the Byzantine Church should just adopt the Feast (unless Rome orders them), especially if there is an important feast such as for St. Thomas that was mentioned.

Also, for future reference, how should I refer to the Eastern Catholic Churches? Is Byzantine all right for the board? What about in general?

Re: Divine Mercy Sunday? #90757 06/19/06 09:16 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 311
MizByz1974 Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 311
Quote
Originally posted by t-bone:
Why is there such a disagreement between the East and West in this regards? To me it seems odd that there would be divergent views within the Catholic Church on this matter. Is there some sort of agreement that since it isn't permanent punishment, it's a doctrine that "doesn't matter?" Does this mean that Eastern Catholics don't have to suffer in the afterlife at all? What about us Latin Catholics? If so, maybe I should switch soon because if I'm lucky enough to get in I would still probably be in the waiting room for awhile.
Hey T-bone (I want steak for supper now, ha!)

It's hairy, I admit. frown

Remember, Byzantine Rite Catholics were Orthodox until the 17th century... so even though we are in communion with Rome and assent to RC dogma such as the Immaculate Conception and papal primacy, we are Orthodox in theology.

You raise an excellent question, btw, about whether these two views of salvation can be reconciled to each other. This is something that I am personally struggling with.

For now, I'll just say that the West and the East speak totally different languages. :rolleyes:

God bless,

Karen

Re: Divine Mercy Sunday? #90758 06/19/06 09:29 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 937
Michael B Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 937
Dear T-Bone,

You asked:

Quote
Does this mean that Eastern Catholics don't have to suffer in the afterlife at all?
This is my belief: Since we do not have much in the way of Scriptures regarding the afterlife, we can only hold onto certain theological ideas presented in the East. One such thought is tied to the teaching of Theosis.

From Wikipedia :

Quote
In Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholic theology, Theosis, meaning divinization (or deification or, to become god), is the call to man to become holy and seek union with God, beginning in this life and later consummated in the resurrection. Theosis comprehends salvation from sin, is premised upon apostolic and early Christian understanding of the life of faith, and is conceptually foundational in both the East and the West.
As we move into our next state of existence, we rest, hopefully, close to the Light of God. Some feel this Light is purifying us towards the last stages of Divinization, where it will be completed during our Eternal Resurrection! Glory be to Jesus Christ! Glory forever!

I have read where others feel the Light of God may not be pleasant on those who have not carried Christ in their hearts. I guess that could be like a purgation of sins, or a painful purifying of the spirit. The point is no one knows for sure.

As Karen states, we are absolved from our sins when we truly and with our whole heart participate in the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

I hope this helps.

In Christ,

Michael

Re: Divine Mercy Sunday? #90759 06/20/06 02:05 AM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 156
I
Isaac Offline
Member
Offline
Member
I
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 156
I sometimes wonder if the topic under discussion is what St. Ephrem was teaching about in the segment of his hymn I quote below. If it is, may I also be granted worthy to be drenched in the shower of Christ’s mercy as I (hopefully!) approach Paradise.


Quote
“Blessed the sinner
Who has received mercy there
And is deemed worthy to be given access
To the environs [surrounding area] of Paradise;
Even though he remains outside,
He may pasture there through grace.
As I reflected I was fearful again
Because I had presumed that there might be
Between the Garden and the fire
A place where those who have found mercy
Can receive chastisement and forgiveness.”

“Praise to the Just One
Who rules with His grace;
He is the Good One who never draws in
The limits of His goodness;
Even to the wicked
He stretches forth in His compassion.
His divine cloud hovers over
All that is His;
It drips dew even on that fire of punishment
So that, of His mercy,
It enables even the embittered
To taste of the drops of its refreshment.”

St. Ephrem the Syrian
“Hymns On Paradise” 10:14-15
~Isaac

Re: Divine Mercy Sunday? #90760 06/20/06 10:56 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 153
H
Highlander Offline
learner
Member
Offline
learner
Member
H
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 153
Dear All,
I have noticed in several threads a mention of a forty-day post-mortem period when the soul of the departed remains near the body. Could some kind friend provide a link where I can learn more about this?

Thanks

Re: Divine Mercy Sunday? #90761 06/20/06 11:40 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 506
MarkosC Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 506
[I can't comment on the other posts, but I want to address the first question and this post is directed to the first question]

SueB, in brief I would say that the Divine Mercy Sunday should not be incorporated into the public prayer of a particular Byzantine- parish because it's not part of the Byzantine liturgy. But it could definitely be part of one's private prayer, and if someone wishes they should definitely do Divine Mercy-type activities with a good Roman parish.

Why do I say this?

Liturgy is the way men publicly worship God (and teach how to worship and understand God!) according to a fixed rite given by the past and by culture. In Christian liturgy, we worship according to what is given to us by our bishops and their predecessors. In the Byzantine tradition, there is a detailed, fixed calendar, a VERY complex and fixed Liturgy of the Hours, and as a culmination the Divine Liturgy. The Liturgy of the Hours is so fixed and theologically dense that it's very difficult to learn and, in my view attendance, at the full Liturgy at a monastery for a year is equivalent to a master's in Byzantine rite theology. A Byzantine parish's worship ought to focus on a pastorally appropriate taste of the full Byzantine Liturgy of the Hours and other prayers of the Byzantine calendar, topped off by the Divine Liturgy.

Now, in your average Roman parish* the Roman liturgy -for better or worse, and despite the Vatican's efforts - consists mostly of the Mass and only the Mass according to a calendar different from the Byzantine one. The remainder of one's prayer life is filled with private prayers of one's own choosing - the privatized Roman Liturgy of the Hours, the Rosary, the Little Office of the Virgin, the Divine Mercy chaplet, etc. The last three have all been given by God through private revelation, promulgated by popular devotion, and are NOT part of the formal Roman Liturgy.

So, we have a fundamentally different spiritual practice between a "good" Byzantine and Roman parish. In my view, the Byzantine Rite has very a fixed liturgy (public prayer) according to a complex and fixed calendar, whereas your average Roman parish has a daily Mass and the faithful supplement this with various private prayers outside of the formal Liturgy. They're both perfectly fine, but I think the average Roman usage should not enter the liturgy of the Byzantine Church because it alters the Byzantine Liturgy in a way out of line with its nature.

Well, there you have my longwinded answer, in a subject I'm really not qualified to babble about. I hope you find it helpful. I also pray that any Divine Mercy-type devotions you may undertake will aid in your spiritual growth. smile

Markos


* this isn't of course the case in monasteries, where things are more than a bit different.

Re: Divine Mercy Sunday? #90762 06/21/06 12:26 PM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 950
Marian Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 950
Glory to God that a Divine Mercy Sunday is celebrated by my Romano-Catholic brethren.

Glory to God that for my Byzantine-Catholic brethren every Sunday is a Divine Mercy Sunday.

God's mercy be our bread, to His hands let us hasten our steps.

Each day must be lived as a Day of Ressurection, a Pascha to Life. Every hour, every moment. See? God's name is wonderful in His works!

If I were a Roman-Catholic or Byzantine-Catholic I would have been faithful to Father Pope and Catholic Church, as Orthodox I am faithful in all to the Orthodox Church. Let us keep our eyes on Christ, as Saint Gregory of Nyssa said.

My brethren, obedience is life.

In Risen Christ, Marian

Re: Divine Mercy Sunday? #90763 06/23/06 04:20 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 4
SueB Offline OP
New
OP Offline
New
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 4
Thank you everybody for responding to my post. For Deacon Lance, since Divine Mercy Sunday is a Roman Rite thing and cannot easily be incorporated into the Byzantine faith, why not propagate it another way by telling Byzantines they are free to participate in their local Roman Catholic Church? The late Pope John Paul II opened the doors of the Church on this day for everybody, not just Roman Catholics. I realize this would have to be addressed and approved by Byzantine Church superiors, but I think it would be so well worth it to do this. Divine Mercy Sunday is a special day BEYOND comprehension. Every sin from the day you were born is washed away completely and it brings your soul to the state it was on the day you were baptized. When I found out about Divine this day, my heart jumped for joy. I felt compelled to share this to members of my Byzantine Catholic faith. SUEB

More info. on Divine Mercy Sunday.

St. Faustina commented to Our Lord: "They (her superiors) tell me that there is already such a feast and so why should I talk about it?" Jesus answered: "And who knows anything about this feast? No one! Even those who should be proclaiming My mercy and teaching people about it often do not know about it themselves. That is why I want the image to be solemnly blessed on the First Sunday after Easter, and I want it to be venerated publicly so that every soul may know about it." (Diary 341) St. Faustina wrote, "It will be a new splendor for the Church, although it has been dormant in it from long ago." (Diary, 378) Isn't this feast just what we need to bring hope and healing to our alienated and lapsed Catholics and for our Church in this time of unrest and uncertainty?

Re: Divine Mercy Sunday? #90764 06/23/06 08:25 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 21
A
Andriy Offline
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
A
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 21
Quote
Originally posted by Highlander:
Dear All,
I have noticed in several threads a mention of a forty-day post-mortem period when the soul of the departed remains near the body. Could some kind friend provide a link where I can learn more about this?

Thanks
Sadly, I just attended a Ukrainian Catholic (Eastern Rite) mass. When Father did what he called "meditation on death" he focused on the concept of time. He was explaining that God has no concept of time, and that the deceased could have expereinced, in our terms, thousands of years even though he had been dead for less than four days. He also went on about how the deceased was in a place, closer to God now.

I am anything but knowledgable in Eastern theology, but I thought that this "meditation on death" would be somewhat relevant to your question. Father made no mention of this 40 day period, and suggested quite the opposite.

Re: Divine Mercy Sunday? #90765 06/23/06 08:42 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 156
I
Isaac Offline
Member
Offline
Member
I
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 156
Speaking of the latin Divine Mercy apparition, would anyone happen to know the name of the person who wrote the icon below?

[Linked Image]


~Isaac

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3

The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2019 (Forum 1998-2019). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3