Dear Friends,

This is a question relating to my memorable attendance at the ordination of my friend, Fr. G. Korz.

And it relates to the cultural component of the OCA.

The OCA "up here" follows the old calendar et al.

Could a Ukrainian, for example, belong to the OCA and still be "Ukrainian?"

I mean this in a most serious way and I'm just trying to get a "feel" for the cultural situation.

Is it a melting pot in the U.S.?

Alex

Andrew may have an opinion on this also.

There was a time, before the autocephaly, when we were the Russian Metropolia, that such cultural integrity was discouraged. For instance, what is now the Johnstown Diocese under the Greeks actually did approach the Russian Metropolia. They said no. Again, the a Bulgarian group approached the Metropolia in the 50s. They said no.

Today, the story is much different. The OCA, being autocephalous, is made up of various ethnic dioceses (which is supposed to be temporary in itself) which retain their own traditions, languages, episcopacy, and even liturgical translations. Currently, the OCA has Bulgarian, Albanian, and Romanian (ethnic) dioceses. It also has several Serbian parishes within the geographical dioceses.

Cultural traditions are not a stumbling block for inclusion into the OCA.

You may also want to pose your question to more official voices at info@oca.org.

Priest Thomas

Bless me a sinner, Father Thomas,

Excellent!

An OCA parish near my in-laws' Naples, Florida condo, St Demetrius, seems to have many parishioners of East Slavic background and when I attend there, I notice that they have many East Slavic traditions.

I didn't know what an "icon scarve" was, at first . . . (Did icons "get cold" and in Florida? ).

The parish I attended on St Thomas' Sunday is noticeably Russian in cultural flavour and there was even an icon dedicated to the memory of Tsar Saint Nicholas II etc.

It is culturally flexible enough to have incorporated my new priest friend who speaks no Russian.

It seems to me that the OCA is a truly remarkable experiment in flexibility and cultural adaptability that is just what is needed in North America.

Personally, I find that I am going back to Church Slavonic, e.g. the Jesus Prayer, the Our Father etc. and that there is something about it that opens up a sacral world that is at once historically Slavic and relevant in terms of the modern need for the sacred and the mystical.

Alex

Bless me a sinner, Father Thomas,

This brings up another question involving the glorification of the Romanov Family.

I certainly am a great devotee of the Holy Tsar and his family, as you know.

And I know that Russian parishes, such as the one I attended, love them as well.

Is it something that could, potentially, be a divisive issue in any OCA or other Orthodox parish?

From a pastoral perspective, what would you do in this respect?

I've crossed sabres here over this issue, and I've learned that there are Orthodox who would rather not venerate them etc.

If they are glorified as Orthodox Passion-Bearers - that's the end of it, is it not?

Alex

Some true confessions, just for a moment...

In the 60s and 70s, there was a tremendous push to Americanize everything (a la Vatican II). Whether it was official, or just a product of the times, it makes no matter. Many of the Metropolia/OCA churches built during that period have the typical "A frame" look and feel to them. Although at the same time that a genuine iconographic tradition was being rediscovered, many of the churches went with the peek-a-boo iconostas, and rather bare walls, placing icons here and there.

Today, I believe, there is a rather marked backlash to much of that. A rediscovery of genuine and authentic tradition, which was dismissed by some as being too Russian, Ukrainian, or whatever. For instance, our parish in McKees Rocks, had absolutely no relics out for veneration by the faithful. This is typical for many OCA parishes in our area. Thanks be to God, we know have the relics of Ss. Innocent, Herman, Tikhon of Moscow, and will soon have St. Raphael. Hopefully the list will grow even more so.

We are also having the Lesser Blessing of Water tomorrow for Midfeast. Something rather "new" to our parish. I plainly tell them, this is the way it "used to be." And they like that. Well, most of them.

Priest Thomas

Bless me a sinner, Father Thomas,

Good for you - the OCA and your parish are lucky to have you!!

I have a small piece of the klobuk of St Seraphim of Sarov - what would our lives be without the Holy Relics?

Alex

Yes, it is the end of the matter. However, I think pastoral sensitivity plays a role in this. There are some who may hold them up for veneration simply because they wish to recreate an Imperial heaven-on-earth in their parish, rather than to hold them up as examples of true suffering and patient endurance.

I used the feast of the New Martyrs of Russia as an opportunity to preach on the subject. (I'll post the link to the sermon here. Right now my server seems to be down.)

Priest Thomas

Bless me a sinner, Father Thomas,

I look forward to reading your sermon, as I know do others here!

The other day, my wife's interior designer's husband, a Greek from Russia, came by (helping with carrying some carpets).

His grandfather was shot by the Bolsheviks and by the end of the afternoon, I gave him an icon of the New Martyrs of Rus'.

I understand that the Moscow Patriarchate has recently approved even more names of Holy New Martyrs to be included in the growing list, and has also approved a liturgical service in their honour.

The Litia for All Saints of Russia includes the actual recitation of ALL KNOWN SAINTS who lived in Rus' from earliest times, beginning with St Andrew!

That must take a good chunk of the day up!

But good for them anyway . . .

Alex

From my limited exposure to the OCA I would have to say that I believe that they are doing things pretty well in the efforts to incorporate the various ethnic groupings into the church and I admire that.

Personally, I cannot see how any one ethnic church group can stand on it's own out into infinity. There has to be some way to sustain the church into future generations for the benefit of the grandchildren of the believers of today. If they should want to continue in the Eastern Church there is every probability that they will not continue the mother tongue and that will lose it's relevance for them.

The Eastern Catholic churches should imitate the OCA in this regard. For myself, being a totally Americanized believer I would investigate the OCA first if I were to have an interest in going to Orthodoxy.

Michael

XB!

I was under the impression that it was the other way around: the Metropolia and the Moscow Patriarchate wanted the Carpatho-Russians in America to join their respective jurisdictions, but the majority of Carpatho-Russians decided against it. They looked back at the reputation the Russian jurisdictions had with respecting the Carpatho-Russian tradition, especially with now St. Alexis Toth and Bishop Stefan Dzubay, and decided their traditions would be retained being under the Patriarchate of Constantinople. "Ani do Rimi, ani do Moskvi" as they said.

I believe this is the basic history presented by the American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Diocese in the book published a few years back... the name escapes me at the moment.

David

According to an article written by Archbishop PETER, he makes the following statement:

"When in the thirties a substantial group of Uniats from Carpatho-Russian origin approached the Metropolia to be accepted into its bosom under the condition it constitute a diocesan unit, the episcopate of the Metropolia rejected this request precisely because of that condition."

Now he does not identify who this "substantial group of Uniats from Carpatho-Russian origin" is, but I can only assume that he is referring to the group under, then Father, Chornock. There were no other specifically described groups in the 30s that returned to Orthodoxy of which I am aware.

It is, of course, well known that they wanted to avoid any imposed Russification. And it is also well known that they were indeed receivied by the Ecumenical Patriarch in 1938.

Priest Thomas

Just following up on a message I wrote earlier... (I am no longer able to edit that particular message)

We were discussing the Royal Passion Bearers and the New Martyrs of Russia, and I promised I would send a link to the sermon I preached regarding that feast day. They are in streaming audio. I'm sorry that the Russian translation is mostly out of microphone range, but that's what you're hearing in between each phrase.

Real Audio
http://www.stnicholas-oca.org/audio/1-26-03.ram

Windows Media
http://www.stnicholas-oca.org/audio/1-26-03.wax

Priest Thomas

Dear Alex,

Andrew does have an opinion on this, as the good Father hypothesized.

In a way, I stumbled into this same discussion in "Byzantine News" regarding the new "Metropolitanate in Spain and Portugal." I even proposed a model out of the quagmire, far from perfect and thus reflecting well its author.

In general, the OCA's stance has been one of ethnic inclusivity. Fr. Thomas explained much of it very well. What one might want to ask is "inclusion into what?"

The some will say that English is the official language of the OCA shows the anti-ethnic bias. This statement presupposes that the Church is made up primarily of English-speakers or that if they aren't, then they "ought to become..." I agree that they "ought to become," but for the purposes of work, school, and keeping track of their children. They may worship in one or many languages, none of which may be English. The language of the Church is the language of the worshipers. See I Corinthians 14 if you don't believe me. Language varies greatly from parish to parish. My home parish is 60-70% immigrants.

But a better example of this bias is in Article 12 of the OCA's constitution which clearly states that, when possible, the ethnic dioceses will "be done away with" (my words, I assure you!). The problem comes up in three ways:

1. The ethnic dioceses aren't going to allow themselves "to be done away with" (the Holy Spirit also guides us ethnics, you know).

2. The ethnic dioceses are growing as quickly if not more quickly than the OCA as a whole.

3. The ethnic dioceses have documents of reception into the OCA signed by her Metropolitan ensuring them that they will never "be done away with." The reception documents, in the case of the Albanians, precede by several days ratification of Article 12 of the OCA's Constitution. An outside observer might even say that "it looks as if someone planned it that way."

The Albanians, for example, are guaranteed a (whole) voting bishop on the Holy Synod [we always hope that he is wholy holy and also whole] . If we look to the track record, however, we find that the see has been vacant for 20 years and attempts to dissolve it, as the Bulgarians have already been, continue.

Let us look at that dissolution:

The Bulgarians had His Grace Kiril, Bishop of Toledo. That was his (first) see. A bishop may have one see only. Over any and all other sees, he would be an administrator or locum tenens, but the new see would be vacant until a permanent bishop could be found.

His Grace was then asked to also become Bishop of Pittsburgh and Western Pennsylvania. Now, which is his see and which does he administer? May a bishop have two sees? If not, then which see has been dissolved and absorbed? Search the OCA website and publications and try to find him identified as Bishop of Toledo in any place except on the page for the Bulgarians and then draw your own conclusions.

I love the OCA and serve primarily in the OCA, but this issue, pursued further, may do it great harm.

With love in Christ,
Andrew

Dear Reader Andrew,

I agree as well that the OCA has done a marvellous job at managing various cultural identities.

The other issue you raise is one I'm not familiar with at all with respect to the OCA, so I can't say, but it is an issue here in Canada.

I agree totally with you that the notion that cultural communities and identities are somehow "predestined" to disappear in North America is simply a lot of nonsense.

I did my doctoral dissertation on the topic of ethnic cultural persistence over generations and found that groups can continue to exist as vibrant cultural communities for decades and decades and still do.

When we had a Ukrainian politician visit us last week, the people most involved with the planning and organizing were those whose Ukrainian (Galician, Bukovinian what have you) ancestors arrived in Canada between 1890-1920 - not the post-World War II Ukies.

At a church meeting, several parishioners told me that they had some trouble with Ukrainian as they had been in Canada for a long time.

I told them I also have been in Canada for a long time, but that my grandparents and parents insisted I read Ukrainian books and newspapers etc.

It seems that these people haven't read anything in Ukrainian for quite some time . . .

And,yes, if you don't read and keep up with the language, history et al., you'll lose it.

I'm not all that familiar with the U.S. situation and I think the "melting pot" business has been largely a caricature as we Canadians perceive it.

But up here we have Anglo-Saxons learning and using French which is our second national language.

We have multicultural days of celebration etc.

I know a professor who speaks more than fifty languages. He to me that one needs only study a language for half an hour daily and that in a year or so one will be fluent in it. Perhaps that's just him

I used to believe that cultural groups lost the language over time like a snake loses its skin.

But such a loss is self-imposed, brought on by laziness etc.

I admire you, Reader, for your strong cultural identity and self-awareness of your historical heritage and community.

Alex

Bless me a sinner, Father Thomas,

I had to wait for "da boss" to leave the office before I could hear your sermon.

Truly insightful and well-delivered!

Did you study to be an orator or does that just come naturally to you?

Alex

Greetings all,

I don't think that cultural identities are predestined to disappear. Witness the Amish for example, and the Navajo! It is good to have a church framework that will accommodate the needs of all these ethnic groups. But I personally feel the idea that ethnic and cultural groups are predestined sustain their uniqueness indefinitely is simply a lot of nonsense. The only means to achieve that are artificial and will result in rejection by the majority of the following generation. One cannot even be assured that any of ones own children will marry into the “right” ethnic/cultural group and everything is a compromise from that point on.

It is inevitable that the younger generations will absorb more and more of the prevailing cultural milieu even as that changes. Maybe in this generation the majority language is English, maybe later it will be French or Spanish.

As had been stated in other threads by posters other than myself there is a huge tendency for the younger generations to become Protestant or Roman Catholic (due in a large extent to intermarriage) or unchurched and there is a major trend in all church groups to lose members to agnosticism and atheism. Does anyone dispute this?

If you would like your grandchildren and great-grandchildren to benefit from an Orthodox church and be partakers in the Divine Nature you had better plan for the likelihood that they would prefer to worship elsewhere. And instead of learning Ukrainian or Greek they may wish to learn Mandarin or Arabic for career purposes. This is not laziness on their part, and the more you force this issue with them the more resistance you will find. There is nothing sadder than a church with no young people in it, with the older ones not even sure that they will be buried from the church they have loved all their lives.

Immigration trends fluctuate over time, due to all manner of unpredictable circumstances and legal situations. When the tap is turned down how will the parish attract new members? If you want to sustain a church that caters to recent immigrants in preference to the third, fourth and fifth generations that congregation will betray you. They probably will acculturate to the prevailing culture too, while your grandchildren are marrying Protestants.

What do we need to do to prepare an orthodox church for the coming generations?

Michael

Dear Michael,

Well, again I don't know the U.S. situation.

But ours up here is different.

Our churches are attracting record numbers - there are some parishes with a majority of "old guard" but young people prefer young people prefer . . .

Ukrainian isn't in danger of being lost and I have taught in one of many schools where the students, the great grandchildren of immigrants, speak excellent Ukrainian. On average, they read about fifty Ukrainian books over two terms. I didn't do that when I was in Ukie school.

Our outgoing bishop suggested more English language liturgies, and parishes just ignored him.

Perhaps it is multicultural Canada or whatever.

There is a strong promotion of the language and even in parishes, like that of my in-laws, where people "no speaka da language," they want the Liturgy in Ukrainian - and quite militantly so. Go figure.

Alex

Wow, If it is as you say in your neck o' the woods I am impressed and full of admiration.

My opinions (such as they are, just opinions) are formed by my experience here in Chicago and I apologize if my generalizations are wide of the mark. Actually, I would much rather be wrong about these things than see it all unfold the way I imagine it.

Of course, Canada has some unique qualities and when you couple that with the pride of the Ukraine I suppose almost anything is possible!

Begging your understanding I will qualify my remarks to say that my personal and unscientific experience around Chicago has caused me to think this way.

God Bless,
Michael

In the contexts where I worship in Philadelphia, even with between 40-70% immigrants in the parishes, I've never argued for reducing the English content below 50%.

Much of what we used to do, we used to do in both languages: Epistle, Gospel, Creed, Prayer Before Communion, and Lord's Prayer. These were reduced to just Creed and Lord's Prayer in two languages, against my best efforts. When I chant, I add in Troparia and Kontakia in Albanian, perhaps to the displeasure of some but to the edification of others.

I think that it is an issue of accomodation. Both communities, native born in USA/Canada and newly-arrived immigrants need to be welcome. Both languages should be used!

Attempts to have a wholy English liturgy at say 9:00 AM and another in the language of newcomers at say 10:30 AM are really efforts that split the community and tell of the need for a second parish.

Attempts to have all English one Sunday and all-something else on another Sunday also result in splitting of the parish.

There are secret prayers, there are inaudibles, there are babies crying, and there are languages that we don't always understand. It is not necessary for every participant to hear and understand every word. The babies, the deaf, and the severely mentally handicapped; how much of the liturgy do they understand? Yet they are full, communing members of the Holy Church.

Worship is a communitarian effort.

With love in Christ,
Andrew

Dear Mike,

Again, it could be an Eastern Canada thing.

But then again you have the very Ukrainian St Volodymyr and Olha Church in Chicago.

And that parish really outclasses anything we have in Canada in terms of "Ukrainianness."

Our tour books of Chicago even recommend that people visit that neck of the woods to see the Ukie shops et al.

We don't have that in Toronto,to be sure!

And now with the "Fourth Immigration" of Ukies in full swing, Ukrainian culture and language is being revitalized.

It is being moreso revitalized since the incoming Ukie immigrants are very Europeanized and modern and so exercise a strong cultural influence over our youth.

Alex

Yes, Sts V & O is a marvelous example of what can and should be done, right where it is. In the heart of Ukrainian village! I am quite inspired by it for the authenticity and strength of the parish.

But someone standing in the midst of a forest may not even be aware that the forest is melting away at the edges. The Idea that "I've got mine, so I'm not worried" reminds me of a common attitude in the USA and some other countries that have no concern about global warming or the depletion of resources. From where they sit everything is OK, but the clock is ticking even if they are not fully aware of it.

The time to evangelize is now. Strong parishes should be erecting missions while they are strong enough to support them. The harvest is ready and the workers are few.

Michael

Greetings all,

I know this subject has probably been broached many times before on this forum in different ways but I'll re-submit it in this thread just for the halibut.

I think that the idea of mixing languages within the liturgy is OK as far as it is usually is done, and it will probably work with almost any congregation if necessary. But really, the job of bringing members into the faith and catechizing them begins outside the temple doorways, out in the street. If that happens, the liturgy could be 100% Greek and the new people would probably adapt to it. So mixing English, French or Spanish into the Liturgy would probably be more than enough.

The problem as I see it, is how do you get them in the door? And once in the door, what do they find there?

Doesn't the Great Commission matter anymore? We are called to evangelize. When was the last time anyone here approached non-orthodox they hardly knew about coming to church with them?

When was the last time anyone here has been approached by an orthodox believer they hardly knew who wanted to evangelize them?

The reason I ask this rhetorical question is that most people that seek orthodoxy find it alone. They are not approached by anyone. When they come to the church for the first time they need to be welcomed and assisted. They are full of anxieties and false expectations and the probability is very high that they will be discouraged in some way. Language is only a part of the complexity of this problem.

Many of our temples are situated in neighborhoods that have changed. The new neighbors may have cultural differences and language differences that are hard to cross. What means do we have to employ to get them to worship with us? Or do we not care?

When a neighborhood changes are we more concerned with where to move the church than how to fill it?

Michael

Dear Michael,

Very important points!

For many Ukies here, evangelical outreach, when it is mentioned, involves helping the "Church in Ukraine."

It means supporting seminaries and married priests et al.

And, as far as that goes, that too is part of the "Great Commission."

The Ukrainian Church needs our help and, conversely, the Church in Ukraine is revitalizing us here as well.

I don't know about other Churches, especially the one that DavidB attends (I can't let a week go by without giving him a friendly jab, you know - he'll feel left out! ), but our Church, as assimilated as it is here and there, is still focused on "da Yoo-crane."

Personally, my own faith experience has been deepened by an ever-deepening tie to the Church in Ukraine, meeting its Patriarch who is also mine, and otherwise getting to know the historical land and cultural context in which my tradition was formed.

And yet there are people who want to join the UGCC and do so where they find English language liturgies and the like.

You are right here. We need to open up to the people who are not Ukie but who find in the UGCC something that speaks to their spiritual hunger.

To ignore them would be to betray a Divine Trust in this regard.

Alex

Alex, as one of those non-Ukie UGCC members I think I understand what you are saying. I would like more English used at my parish, but I still feel very strongly about needing to keep the close ties with the Ukrainian culture as well. I am very much afraid that were we to turn into a Church comprised mostly of converts we would lose our uniquness as Byzantines. We need the ethnics and born UGCCs to keep us grounded in our Eastern Christian culture. Too often converts (and I can speak from personal experience as one three times over, as well as from observation) don't really change internally, but but only have a thin veneer of their new faith over the old. Too often former Baptists (insert the name of whatever sect), will still be Baptists underneath with a Catholic (or whatever) whitewash trying to cover it up...and the whitewash usually wears through after a time. I see it on this board and in parishes too often, in all jurisdictions...Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox. Just because we can quote a book doesn't mean we are reading the book correctly or even that the book is necessarily right...even when that book comes from Rome or Moscow or Constantinople or etc. There is something to be said for Dr. John's comments about the faith being rooted in the lived experience of the community. I believe this is especially true for those of us in the looser organized Eastern Christian traditions, where we prefer not to put things of the Spirit into tidy little theological boxes. Just my humble opinion. Don

Also Alex, expect a package from Kansas soon. I finally got that little OCS prayer book in the mail to you today. Let me know when you get it. Don

Bless me a sinner, Father Don,

Well, I don't know what the UGCC ever did to deserve you, Servant of God!

I think it's just a great gift of Grace to the unworthy!

Alex

Greetings!

Of course, watch out for those rice Christians!

Every culture that receives the faith for the first time will begin to influence it's externals, that is a given. The Ukraine must have had some Greek Christians resident there before the conversion of Volodymyr; I wonder what they thought of what the Slavs were doing to their church?

We have had some interesting postings here of all the little paganisms that have been retained by our good, honest, God fearing ancestors. Does anyone doubt that they were truly converted? Anyone here have an icon corner?

The Jewish Christians didn't feel comfortable with all the gentiles in the church, and the gentiles did benefit from the old guard Jews that gave those congregations all that ethnic flavour and deep rootedness. The fact is that Christianity is not Ukrainian or Rusyn or Arabic or Greek, it is all of that and more. And its culture will keep evolving, so don't be surprised when you find yourself talking Theosis with someone with a Methodist accent.

The Roman Empire is dead, all dead and gone. Byzantium is finished. Moscow in and of itself doesn't represent authentic Byzantine culture and neither does Kyiv or Bucharest. We might think as though we have a monopoly on authentic Byzantine spirituality. But the liturgy goes on, and the Fathers still speak to us in their writings, and we are still finding the true faith.

Michael

Dear Michael,

Since you mention it, yes there was a Greek Christian colony in southern Ukraine and in the Crimea especially.

They are today still uncovering the shrines of unknown ancient Greek Saints and recently the Orthodox Church installed two such unknowns into the calendar.

There were Goths there as well, and St John of the Goths in Crimea participated in the First Ecumenical Council, along with St Nicholas the Wonderworker.

Scythians? Lots of them too and a lot are in the calendar as well, together with the assistant missionaries of St Andrew, Sts. Inna, Pinna and Rimma.

Has the Greco-Roman Empire dissolved? That is a good question!

We have inherited almost everything we have from it, including the philosophical paradigms in which we today view Christian revelation and perform our liturgical practice.

Those empires haven't dissolved, they've just readapted themselves so no one could say they aren't "modern!"

Kyivan Christianity is a reality that persists to this day.

Show me any "American Orthodox" who says his cupolas are native to Minneapolis and I'll show you a person who believes all that went into the creation of the U.S. began solely in 1776.

Adaptation is important.

But let's not throw out the baby with the bath-water!

Alex

I wouldn't think of it!

Michael

Dear Michael,

Good!

Whatever people need is what the Church should provide!

Alex

Dear Mike,

Another factor is that one in ten Americans are immigrants, but one in five Canadians are immigrants.

Cultural pluralism is a fact up here and that lessens the pressure to assimilate to the Anglo-conformity model.

Alex

Dear Alex,
I appreciate what you say, my only comments to that would be that the United States went through that heavy immigration about 100 years ago and you can see the results today. I should remind you that my opinion is skewed by my personal observation and I do not have any hard data to back it up.

As I understand it, (I could be wrong about this) most Greek-Americans do not attend their churches and the churches have been the focal point of Greek culture, along with the Greek schools.

My conversations with various Ukrainians I have met tell me that the tendency is for the Ukrainians to quit the church too, or attend so seldom that they don't bother to register. I have observed this among my own friends. One of whom married a Mexican-American and attended the Roman church.

And many or the modern Ukrainian immigrants are so secularized that they have little interest in joining the local parish. This I have from a very recent conversation with a Ukrainian priest, he attributed this to the communist era.

In my own family, my fathers parents came from eastern Europe (Galicia) and were dead-set against their children marrying outside the Polish nation. Of eight children six lived to adulthood and not one married into the Polish ethnic group, NOT ONE! My mother is Louisiana French and Mississippi WASP and how they ever got together I'll never know.

My mothers brother-in-law was Mexican-American. In his family not one of the brothers or sisters married another Mexican-American. That is the way it can be here.

I don't feel a preference for any ethnic group, I love them all. And I do not think I am unusual in that regard. How many Ukrainian families do you think are following the same path? I wonder if the statistics are available in some form?

How many people of Ukrainian descent live in Canada? How many people of Ukrainian descent attend the Ukrainian churches? What about in the USA?

I cannot answer these questions, I would have to guess.

Your friend in Christ,
Michael

Dear Michael,

Well, our churches in Toronto are truly filled to the brim with all kinds of Ukies, including immigrant ones.

It could be that it is because the Church is the strongest institution here.

There are so many Ukies of the so-called "Fourth Immigration" that they are affecting parish and cultural life in our community for the good - and sometimes for the bad.

My in-laws' parish also has a number of Orthodox Ukie immigrants who appear not to pay too much attention to the differences between Catholics and Orthodox - some send their children to "St Josaphat's" school . . .

But our parishes have Ukrainian Catholic married priests of Chinese background, a couple who is Filipino, Belarusians and others.

As Shakespeare said, "Rome and roome enough!"

Alex

May Almighty God continue to bless the Ukrainian churches with vocations and strength of purpose!

And may the Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God have mercy on us.

Michael, the sinner

Dear Michael,

Well, I think we have so many married priests "over there" because it is a great profession to be in, for one thing.

But even the best professions can have system overload.

In addition, we have all sorts of religious Orders springing up and one bishop commented to me that the UGCC has never had so many priests and religious in its history.

If you guys in the Ruthenian Church want some Carpathian married priests, that can be arranged!

Alex

Wow!!!

Alex, is that really, really true!! " ... all sorts of religious orders.... so many priests and religious...."

Glory to God!! That's wonderful!! Where is that clapping hands "happy face" when I need it?

Is there a master list so men and women may write to them? Or these Religious Orders? Or traditional monastics? Or some sort of combination?

Thank you for sharing the good news! Thank you in advance for any additional information/details/links or whatever the Holy Spirit inspires you to share!

:p :p :p

Dear MB,

The Basilian Press has their Almanac that gives a comprehensive listing of all these Orders - I myself can't believe how many there are and how many priests etc.

Some of them are very Eastern and dress like Orthodox monks and nuns. Others dress like the Latin Orders.

Vocations are truly EXPLODING over there and a number of these are coming over here and, truth be told, are finding a cold shoulder from a number of parishes.

One priest I heard of just this last Sunday who is from there is going around asking people for help as no one wants to accept him.

I can't figure that out . . .

Alex

Basilian Press? Is that Ukranian?

The only addresses I have are, of course, Ruthenian and OCA.

WHere do I find Basilian Press?

Thank you, Thank you.

Dear MB,

Here is their URL:

http://www.pathcom.com/~baspress

They seem to be under construction though . . .

You might try the UGCC site in Lviv as well!

Alex

To OC:
I sent you a private message on this topic.

Dear MB,

Got it!

Do you think I'm condescending?

Alex

To OC--
No. (and thank you)

I love your enthusiasm for the explosion of the number of people consecrating their lives to God although most of it appears to be in Eastern Europe.

I think we in North America will soon have more vocations, too. We will have more priests and more monastics. The Holy Father has asked for the Eastern Catholic Churches to restore their traditions. It has begun.

Maybe we just need to make it clear that it is a very good thing to give God 24/7 of our lives.

I recall a number of months ago a similar Forum discussion about many nuns in Eastern Europe and someone asked, in effect, WHY, and another wise person pointed out, "...it is the apostolic zeal of a persecuted Church..." They couldn't practice their faith publicly but they sure practiced it privately. Perhaps in North America there are many beginning monastics, but we have to almost go "underground" because our churches are still so latinized, etc....

It's all part of God's mysterious ways -- His wonders to perform.

Dear MB,

Your point about the zeal of a persecuted Church is important.

One writer once commented on the difference between the early persecuted Church and the Church after Constantine.

"The same bishop who lost a finger in the Cause of Christ during the persecutions later dedicated the rest of himself to the cause of the state . . ."

Alex

It's funny - I have a co-worker hails from Russian and lived in a couple other cities where he attended the traditional Russian Orthodox churches he grew up with. He'd been attending the local OCA church and opined that some things seemed "strange" to him there, although he couldn't really put his finger on what. He did mention that the church art seemed a little different from what he was used to and he wasn't used to seeing ladies attired quite as they were (no babushkas and some wearing trousers). Anyway, he assumed he was attending a Russian church, because there were Russians there-not realizing that our city has more than one Orthodox church - and in fact, there is a very old school, traditional Russian church in the vicinity. I was amused, though, they he could not at first comprehend the concept of an American Orthodox church. Now that he knows what it is, he thinks it's pretty cool.

A wonderful story! May our goal be that every American comprehend the concept of an American Orthodox Church and of an American Byzantine Catholic Church and join us in worship.

Dear Administrator and Annie,

And let me, as a Ukrainian Catholic, be the first to congratulate you on establishing your own American Church!

If I ever come across a Ukie up here that would like to join an English-only church, I'll be sure to send him or her your way!

But I would do a lot of active outreach for members, if I were you . . .

Best wishes and let us all know how you are coming along!

Alex

Alex,

I could not figure out how to send you a private message, and so am contacting you through the forum.
I noticed your comment that your own dissertation dealt with the issue of persistent ethnic identity. I am currently advising a student who is researching the Polish National Catholic Church, specifically interested in what future they can have as ethnic identities in the USA become less intense and more diffuse. It sounds like your work would be of interest to him. Can you send us any references or would you at least be open to further contacts?

Thanks!

Phil Yevics

Phil, I don't know about PNC churches in other localities, but here in Western Massachusetts (which has a large Polish-American population) many of them have dropped the designation "Polish" and are now known simply as "National Catholic Churches," e.g., St. Joseph's National Catholic Church, Westfield, MA.

OrthodoxEast

Dear OrthodoxEast,

Excuse me? Was Phil talking to you?

Alex

Dear Phil,

Yes, sorry about that . . .

I would be most happy to correspond with your friend on this fascinating topic.

I find the PNCC very interesting especially their veneration of Jan Hus and Savonarola . . .

Alex

Sorry for that interjection, OE, but this is a PUBLIC forum, you know, not a private message board (or so I thought). Sorry for MY mistake on your private message board. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa! :-(

OrthodoxEast

Dear OE,

We're still having trouble with those smileys, eh?

The day you take me seriously will be the day you really WILL be in trouble!

God bless and enjoy the sunshine, Sunshine!

Alex

"And it relates to the cultural component of the OCA.
The OCA "up here" follows the old calendar et al.
Could a Ukrainian, for example, belong to the OCA and still be "Ukrainian?"
I mean this in a most serious way and I'm just trying to get a "feel" for the cultural situation.
Is it a melting pot in the U.S.?"

Here it's up to the Bishop as to whether to allow parishes to use the O.C. In the Diocese of Washington, there are a few that use the O.C. (notably the Serbian-background St. Luke's and the Russian community at St. Nicholas Cathedral). It's helpful to remember that using the O.C. isn't strictly Russian, as the Serbs and a number of others do it as well.

I think that from what I have seen the OCA parishes here are a mixed bunch. There are certainly a lot that are either Russian or heavily-influenced by Russian usages, and then there are others that are quite "Eastern European" in a more generic sense while not being particularly Russian. And then there are the Romanians, who have the largest OCA diocese, in terms of parishes. And added onto those are the newer parishes founded in the last 15 years or so that aren't really tied to any particular heritage, and which may display bits and pieces from various different Orthodox traditions. So in general I think it's fair to say that the Russian tradition is the most widespread, but that other traditions are also fairly well represented within OCA (which makes it different, in my personal experience, from the GOA or the AA which are both more "monotraditional").

Brendan

Dear and Revered Brother in Christ, Brendan!

Thank you for your learned insights and observations as always!

That is very good to hear and from what I've seen of the OCA up here, it is truly a Church on the grow as it adapts to people - a sort of spiritual "the customer's right (rite)"

When I think of the Old Calendar, I always think of the Ukrainians only - the Russians really aren't on my mental horizon

But I've come across an excellent article by a Ukie who is a member of the OCA who writes about the opportunities made available by the OCA for cultural expression - truly impressive.

God bless!

Alex

Dearest Alex, can you provide me a reference to the article you mention or send it privately? This is very pertinent to some personal discernment I am engaged in at the present.

Dear Diak,

The good news is that I know it is on this excellent Old Rite site:

http://semeyskie.narod.ru

The bad news is I don't remember where on the site I saw it . . .

But if you read all the articles there, you will be the best informed Ukrainian Old Rite Orthodox in Communion with Rome there is . . .

Alex