Dear SP Deaf Byzantine:

I am about to ask you a personal question. If you find it inappropriate, I would understand completely if you declined to answer, and I apologise. So here goes...

From your "signature" on the Forum, "Deaf Byzantine", I take it that you are "hearing-impaired" (is that the correct term of phrase?)?

If so, I would be interested to hear how you experience the Byzantine liturgical life, given that music is such a great part of it.

Plus, the clergy all face east, so you would not be able to even approximate any kind of lip-reading.

And since many of our deacons don't yet make a reverence at the end of each petition during the Ektenes, one has little guide as to what is going on, etc., etc.

Anyways, if you feel that you would like to respond, it would be much appreciated.

herb

Hello,

Your line of question is not inappropriate at all. I encourage people to ask people questions about hearing disability as it is poorly educated among hearing people.

Lots of people think Deaf people are incompetent people, not able to live normal lives, not able to read and write, not able to drive, etc. SERIOUSLY! Yes, in the year 2002, people STILL think these things about Deaf people.

I was born profoundly deaf and I was raised in Oral/Aural school from age one on. I also learned American Sign Language when I was 15. I still speak and read lips.

Yes, with the priest facing the East, I try hard to "LISTEN" for his words (listening is different from hearing). And with the choir behind me, I can listen pretty well. As the words are the same every Sundays.

I also have the privilege of serving my priest. In fact, I'm his "right hand man" for our community as I have many responsibilities and duties. I also train altar servers. I also create quarterly newsletters for our community.

I was even asked by another priest if I could be a subdeacon (as well as my priest asking me). I also was told it was possible for me to be a deacon (I know singing is required).

So, being an oral Deaf person is a blessing and gift from God as I am able to participate the Divine Liturgy fully.

I also used to go to "Tridentine Latin Mass." My other deaf friend taught me about it (he isn't oral and doesn't wear hearing aids). I was amazed on how well he followed Latin Mass without the use of aids. It's all about gestures that the priest was doing that he knows where the priests "were at" in the Latin Mass.

I also can read Latin. And speak some. But Roman Catholicism isn't for me as I'm Byzantine.

I also took 5 semesters of German classes when I was in college (21 hours total). I used to know some Croatian but forgot a lot of it. And right now, I'm interested in learning Ukrainian! Hahaha. But it's hard to find study materials and books for Ukrainian (they only have Russian but don't want to learn it as it's different from Ukranian).

I'm also a TV producer at a local TV station. My job is to produce image spots, commercials, promotions, publicity, etc. with few people under me working for me.

So I'm capable of doing normal things that you all can do...except for one thing...I cannot hear.

Furthermore, Hearing Impairment is considered derogatory term, similar if one would say that one is a Uniate or a Nigger or whatever. That view is mostly held by the "Culurally Deaf" people as well as those who know sign language (like Oral and Hard of hearing). It's not an extreme insulting term, but it's simply not nice. It seems to sound like a Deaf person is "IMPAIRED" as if we are retarded or very disabled to a point where we "couldn't do anything normal in our lives."

I'm glad that you asked me few questions about my hearing disability. And it's not a private question or not insulting at all. You are welcome to ask me more questions out on the forum or in private...whatever you choose.

Have a good day.

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

Oh by the way, I also have a good friend who is an Orthodox priest here in Wichita, who knows American Sign Language. He's such a good priest. Sometimes he signs a little during his homilies...it always makes me feel soooo special. I guess unfortunately, I can't receive communion in the Orthodox Church. Darn it. Someday we will (we have to!).

ONE MORE THING: I'm glad you brought up this subject on Deafness. As I have been wanting to set up some kind of "Pan Byz.Cath/Orthodox group" for the Deaf and Hard of Hearing. As well as for other Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox (Alexandrian, Syrian, etc.). So ANYBODY out here know anyone who is Deaf and Hard of Hearing??? Let me know! You're welcome to e-mail me privately if you wish.

Shane, there's plenty of Ukrainian books, dictionaries and self-help courses out there. Your Barnes and Noble store probably has some. I don't know if you can hear the tapes, but there are some good elementary grammar/phrase books available. Hope to see you in two weeks in Wichita (22nd) if you are having Liturgy then.

Deaf Byzantine,

I like your reply! I too am in an unusual postition being "hearing impaired", in my right ear, ie. -80 dB loss of hearing compared to the left. I have been more hesitant to make mention of it for a number of reasons. However, with that "impairment" I have gone on to be a cantor in my parish. Music has always been a part of my life which probably helped considerably. Learning to cope with "disabilities" early on is of critical importance to functionality as an adult.

I wish I knew as many languages as you! I am sloooooowly learning old church slavonic in the linguistic sense rather than just "parroting" what I remember hearing as a youngster. The two years of spanish I learned in high school were lost years ago. :rolleyes:

Steve Petach

It is great to see that I am not the only hearing impaired person out there.

I do not really know how I compare to everyone else, but I was born with my hearing impairment. So growing up I never really knew that I had a problem.

All my life people have had attitudes towards me because I "ignore" them. It wasn't until I tried to join the army at the end of High School that I realized that I had a problem.

I wasn't until just recently that I could afford hearing aids. These have helped me greatly with the Liturgy, now I can understand more of what is being said.

Foreign languages have always caused me problems as I can not really hear how the words are pronounced, that is better now.

Coffee hour after Liturgy is a problem though due to the large amount of noise.

The thing I do hate though, is people that I still have trouble hearing. Instead of them trying to speak up when they talk to me, they tell me to turn my hearing aids up.

Your brother in Christ,
David

Are there ways in which the Divine Services might be more "accessible" to persons of the Deaf Community?

Are our Churches "responding" or "outreaching" sufficiently to the Deaf Community.

I have the impression [I could be wrong] that deaf people sometimes are marginated from Church life - given the Churches lack of sensitivity to them.

How would Deaf Culture people like the Byzantine Churches [or other Eastern Churches] to serve them?

herb

DavidB,

WHY ON EARTH do you have an an "embarrassed" smiley in your recent note on this post??? You should never EVER EVER feel bad or embarrassed about your hearing loss at all!

Also, please do not use the word "Hearing Impaired," as it is consider offensive in the Deaf and Hard of Hearing community. These words make it appear that the person is "IMPAIRED" as if one is retarded or severely disabled. But we are not profoundly "impaired." We simply have a hearing loss.

You are NOT impaired in anyway or whatever. You are just fine as who you are, a man with hearing loss.

I can understand how hearing people can be so rude, cold and ignorant when it comes to a Deaf or Hard of Hearing (HH) person. That is why it is up to me and thosw who are Deaf/HoH to educate them.

I always have been BOLD to tell people that I am Deaf and if I don't understand them, I don't just nod, I make them repeat it. If they are embarrassed to repeat, then I'd say something like, "why do you bother to tell me something and I didn't understand and you just give up????" That would make them realize that "giving up" can be very rude and insulting to Deaf/HH people as if we're not worth their time to make us understand them. Does that make sense? So, usually they end up repeating it.

And of course, I have sense of humor...when it comes to the mispronounciation of words on my part or misunderstanding people. We have to lighten up too. I even laugh at myself if I make a mistake (not to cover up any insecurity since I have no insecurity).

SMILE. Be proud to be Deaf/HH! Let's have Deaf Power!

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

Oh one more thing DavidB. If we are not "worth anybody's time" or seen as a "burden" then they're not good people, just selfish. If it takes "work" for them to even try (like it's a burden for them to "work harder" to communicate" then they're not worth OUR time, since we ALSO have to work harder too.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Herbigny:
[QB]Are there ways in which the Divine Services might be more "accessible" to persons of the Deaf Community?

SPDundas: Well...having interpreter services is one way of doing it. I know a Byzantine Catholic priest who does the interpreting during the Uniontown Pilgrimage EVERY YEAR in PA (Labor Day weekend).

I've had interpreters come to few Divine Lituriges, I say few meaning 2 times.

I would like to hear any comments from priests on this forum about what they think would be a good accomodation for the Deaf and HH?

I have a friend who is an Orthodox priest who can sign American Sign Language (ASL). One of these days, when he and I aren't so busy, I can have a long talk with him about this issue.

Are our Churches "responding" or "outreaching" sufficiently to the Deaf Community.

No, not really. But maybe that's why I'm here, to start something.

Herb: I have the impression [I could be wrong] that deaf people sometimes are marginated from Church life - given the Churches lack of sensitivity to them.

SPDundas: You are right, Herb, the Deaf/HH people tend to be left out of the life of the Liturgy and the people. I know that people know that Deaf/HH need some help, so I think that their lack of support is very insensitive.

Not only there are problems with lay people, but there are problems with the priests and the people involved with the Church, not only liturgically, but also the life and ministry of the Church.

The Roman Catholic Church have improved a lot in the last 10 to 15 years or so in providing a place for the Deaf people in the Church. Incorporating them to the Liturgy functions, social life of the Church, etc. As if the Deaf people are part of the Church rather than the shunned people in the corner of the Church. But even in the RCC, there are TONS of work to do.

There are RCC priests and nuns who are learning ASL so they can be part of the Deaf Catholic ministry.

Just imagine what it's like in the Eastern Churches, BOTH the Catholic and the Orthodox Churches!!! WOW! Very Difficult! VERY FEW Deaf/HH people out there.

Most of the Deaf/HH people from RCC and BCC as well as Orthodox have left to JOIN other Protestant Churches (especially Baptists) who have given them WARM and LOVING welcome to be part of the Church, providing accomodations for them, sign language interpreters, preachers, etc. They have classes for the Deaf there (like Bible Study), etc.

I mean, I'm talking about 90% to 95% of the RCC/BCC Deaf/HH actually leave to join other Churches! Isn't that SAD??? Whose fault is it??? (In my opinion, I blame the Church, pastors, people, etc.).

Don't think that I'm a "blamer" here, there are some RCC priest who have been extremely COLD and insensitive towards the Deaf people in the past. I've seen it happen. One time, I saw that the Deaf group had to be in the very back of the Church with interpreter!! Or in the cry room! So the priest won't be "bothered." GIVE ME A BREAK! That's how insensitive they (as well as people) can be!!! But like I said, there have been some great improvements in the last 10-15 years. But more work to do though.

Do you know that the RCC even have a national office? National Catholic Office of the Deaf in Washington DC. There are Deaf Cursillos. There are actually functioning "Deaf Ministry" offices in certain Dioceses. There is a organization who advocates Deaf Catholics if they have a problem with the Church (I forgot the name of it, but is quite effective). I'm sure there is a committee in the NCCB dealing with the Deaf Catholic ministry. There is "International Deaf Catholic Association" as well National. They have conferences, seminars, etc. There is a Deaf Catholic camp in New York (called Mark 7)..yeah as in Mark chapter 7 when Jesus healed a Deaf mute. Camp Mark 7 was founded by a friend of mine, the FIRST DEAF Catholic priest in USA/World. He was recognized by the Pope himself personally.

SO, remember...the Deaf/HH people take up about 5% to 10% of the population, so that's quite a lot if you add it all up all over the country.

SO, I think it's high time for the Eastern Churches to start doing something....something that the RCC are doing!!!

Herb: How would Deaf Culture people like the Byzantine Churches [or other Eastern Churches] to serve them?

SPDundas: Thank God for Forums such as this one, so people can have their imput, ideas, suggestions, etc. of what they can do for the Deaf.

We Deaf/HH simply want to be accepted, loved, and welcomed in the Church. Knowing that we have a home in the Church...to understand what is going on in the Liturgy.

I met a Deaf guy who was an Orthodox Christian, at the World Youth Day in Denver in 1993 (when the Pope of Rome came to Denver). And boy what a guy he was! He was so frustrated with the Orthodox Church that he "hated it." So he wanted to become a Catholic and then become a priest.

(Yes, folks, there are many Deaf priests in the nation now, in the RCC. It's about time! They'd have Masses in ASL, etc.)

Anyway, I lost this guy's address. So I REGRET every single time I think of him, that I have lost contact with him. I don't even want to think about it!!! It bothers me, since he would contribute greatly to the BCC/Orthodox Churches.

Let me know what you all think and comments are welcome here! God bless.

SPDundas
DEAF Byzantine

Hiya, Shane

Whoops! Sorry 'bout that, Shane - somehow I managed to post my message after just my greeting!?! Wonder how I did THAT?? :rolleyes: ANYWAY...to continue our conversation from yesterday evening after Liturgy, I've been reading with great interest everyone's questions and comments on the Deaf Culture all around us. I'm learning a lot - I had no idea such marginalizing was "going on", but now that you've pointed it out - it's so obvious - DOH!

As it seems we're always rushing around like mad after Liturgy (me chasing Jon usually), perhaps you could tell me here (or in a private e-mail) where to go for ASL classes? Are they terribly expensive? The kids and I are really determined to at least TRY to learn this, and besides...they want to talk to you . That cool CD-set I found has been very helpful, but short video clips simply can't replace real-time communication and explanations, huh?

If I am not wrong there is a parish in Madrid (Our Lady of Silence) with celebrates all its services using both Spanish and the Spanish sign language. There is another parish (an Orthodox one) celebrating services in the sign language in Moscow.