Dear Friends:

Here is the schedual of services, for those interested in sharing the Holy Days at St. Elias.


Services at St. Elias
The Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
Eparchy of Toronto & Eastern Canada.

For further information please log on to www.saintelias.com


Holy & Great Thursday:
5pm Vespers/Divine Liturgy of St. Basil [Eng./Ukr.]
8pm Twelve Passion Gospels [Eng.]

Great & Holy Friday:
10am Royal Hours [Eng./Ukr.]
6pm Vespers of Entombment [Eng./Ukr.]
9pm Jerusalem Matins-Vigil at the Grave [Eng.]

Great and Holy Saturday:
9am Jerusalem Matins [Ukr.]
4pm Vespers/Divine Liturgy of St. Basil
The Paschal Vigil Liturgy with 15 Readings

Pascha
5am Final Vigil with Removal of Shroud

Then,
beginning at 6am and ending about 10am:

Resurrection Matins/Divine Liturgy/Blessing of Easter Food.

7pm Agape Vespers and Fellowship.


Blessed Pascha to all.

defreitas

Although, I can't make it for Pascha, I certainly hope very soon to attend a Liturgy at this great Church!!!!

God bless and a Happy Pascha to the community of St ELias!!!

Dear Parishioners of St Elias,

Your site does indeed provide many useful links and I think I'm beginning to actually understand you . . .

Your excellent section on Altar Servers is, well, excellent.

Do your servers receive the blessing from the priest prior to Liturgy?

I've never seen the ripidia held over the Gospel Book like that before - where does that tradition emanate from?

I guess I'll have to come and see for myself . . .

If you'll have me . . .

I promise to behave.

Alex

XPICTOC BOCKPECE!

I heard that St. Elias did a Paskhal Procession thing at the end of Divine Liturgy! That sounds really NEAT!

And they stopped at the 4 "corners" around the Church and read various Resurrectional Gospels, with the clergy (and even those who were not serving the Liturgy joining in) fully vested!

Coolness Rules!

All this apparently before some kind of big Water fight thing, with kids (soaking each other with Water rifles and such).

Are these things pretty widespread amongst all Orthodox Churches in Communion with Rome? I had not heard about this before...

Christ is Risen!

Herb

Yeah, their site provides so much useful info that even Old Calendarist Greek Orthodox link their pages. See?

http://www.stirene.org/orthodoxviews/orthodoxviews_index.htm

+ XPICTOC BOCKPECE +

Alex -- yes, the servers receive the blessing before they vest in the stikhar. They also get a blessing at the end of the service.

Holding the ripidia over the gospel probably comes from the usage at hierarchal services. Although according to some sources this is only permitted to be used by bishops and archimandrites that have the right to vest in the centre of the church (a strange yet interesting rubric), I have seen it at some "Metropolia" parishes as common parochial practice.

Herbigny, yes, what you say is all true. The procession, called a Khrestni Khod (or Protsesini Pokhid in Ukrainian -- Metropolitan HILARION (Ohienko)) is prescribed for every day of Bright Week and also can be done on Patronal Feasts Days or other major feasts.

Chtec, the link you posted did not work on my computer, but if you could send it to the webmaster of St. Elias -- Hieromonk Richard -- he would surely be interested and humoured.

Daniil

Christos Anesti! Alithos Anesti!

Dear Alex, we hold the ripidia over the priest not only when he reads the Gospel, but for other solemn occasions, such as at the Great Entrance when he elevates the chalice and diskos. We also use them for processions and other solemn occasions. Our altar boys also receive a blessing before they vest and receive one before they unvest. They didn't any of that before this subdeacon came along.

The Saint Elias page info is truly an excellent primer for altar servers. Another more detailed guide of servers instructions with diagrams and definitions is "The Subdeacon's Manual" by Kirill Sokolov. This is the "summa" of instructions for serving when the Bishop is present. Another very good basic server's guide is the ROCOR's "The Divine Liturgy: A General Guide for Altar Servers" which used to be distributed by Pantokrator Press.

Subdeacon Randy saith: "Our altar boys also receive a blessing before they vest and receive one before they unvest. They didn't any of that before this subdeacon came along."

Thus say I: if you are talking about our Temple, it is a moot point, since we did not have servers before you mystically appeared, and came with your entorage.

AK

XPICTOC BOCKPECE

1. Why do the Servers ask for a blessing at the end of Liturgy? I can understand getting a blessing at the beginning, as a blessing/authorization to serve; or getting a blessing before any specific service, like the Reader getting one before doing the Apostle Reading. But after?

2. From what I heard, that Water Fight thing sounds fascinating. Must make a lot of kids want to go to Church during Bright Week!!! Is it prescribed in the Typik?

3. Daniil, if I may be so bold to ask a supplementary question: Why is there a Procession? The Great Friday one's recall the Funeral Procession with Christ's Body. The Paskhal Matins one recalls the Journey of the Holy Myrrhbearing Women. What's this one all about?

Christ is Risen!

Herb

And Happy Bright Monday!

My Dear Alex:

For the complete answers to all your questions you will indeed have to come to St. Elias.

I would though, like to tell you about something that happened Sunday morning at Pascha services.

Sometime during the service Ilya, our Cantor, noticed that his three year old nephew Nicolai was causing a little disturbance.

He came up to the child, bent down, and started to speak to him; I noticed that the child nodded his head in agreement to Ilya's questions.

Ilya took Nicolai in his arms, carried him into the sanctuary, brought him to Father Roman at the altar, who then gave the child a blessing.

Ilya disappeared with him into the vestry and after a few moments came out with Nicolai dressed in a miniature stikarion.

The child then stood quietly by his uncle during the rest of the service.

"Of such is the Kingdom of Heaven"


defreitas

Dear Jose,

Christ is Risen!

Yes, that happened to me (or something very similar) when I was very young at St Nicholas' Church.

Fr. Stepan Chabursky was serving and indicated to me to come forward with my brother.

We didn't know it then, but this was the grandfather of both of our future brides . . .

Alex

XPUCTOC BOCKPEC!

Dear All:

A real pleasure to read that parishes are getting to the point that the rypidy are being used for the entrances and during the gospel readings during the Divine Liturgy. Just another example of how far we've come.

As far as the "altar boys" receiving blessings, I think this is sort of cool.

Here's a question, though. Should we consider instituting a Candlebearer's ordination as well as Reader, Cantor and Subdeacon? On one hand, it would be nice to have our altar boys have this special blessing.

On the other hand, does a ten year old have the mental capacity to understand that he is being "ordained" into an important position within the church? Also, how many moms who didn't know better would freak out when they found out that their sons had just taken the first step in holy orders to priesthood?

Finally, on the water fight - I think this probably harkens back to the traditional "oblyvanyj ponedilok" (or, "soaked Monday") wherein young lads in Ukraine would go after a girl they liked with a bucket of water on Bright Monday. Endearing way to ask someone out, don't you think?

Yours,

kl

Dear Krilos Leader,

BOICTUHY BOCKPEC!

The girl so dunked would probably think the boys "all wet..."

I think Cantors should be consecrated as I believe they are regarded as clergy in our Church, are they not?

I don't know about the blessing for the other roles, but altar servers sometimes have an "induction blessing" and thereafter ask for blessings before serving - and apparently after.

But the study of these liturgical rubrics fascinates me - it shows the great depth and complexity of the rich and meaningful liturgical actions of our Church!

I suppose one learns all this by study of texts and by constant participation in the services (?)

But I take it that St Elias Church is among the more advanced parishes in this regard (d'ya think? )

What if one is trained in the "usage" of St Elias, that is, in all the Byzantine "bells and whistles," but then serves in a parish where things are done differently? Can this be confusing?

Also, what about the ringing of the bell for the Creed and also for the "Dostoyno Yest" afterwards?

I thought such bell-ringing in Church was Latin?

Alex

Dear Alex:

From what I understand, there are four "lower orders" in our church:

1. Candlebearer
2. Reader
3. Cantor
4. Subdeacon

... in addition to the three higher orders of deadon, priest and bishop (lie I needed to tell you that).

I also udnerstand that each of the lower orders has it own "ordination" ceremony (albeit a breif one). I'm also pretty sure that they can be administered one after the other a la how we do the Royal Hours on Great and Holy Friday.

However, in modern practice, I think they are generally administered to those who will ultimately become deacons or priests (with, of course many notable exceptions on this borad). Just another tradition that we need to re-capture, I guess.

Can anyone confirm my understanding?

Yours,

kl

Dear KL,

Well, I certainly can't hold a candle to you!

Well done!

Do you think our Administrator is an ordained Cantor?

If one isn't, how does one become a Cantor, apart from having a great voice and knowing one's way around liturgical music?

Alex

Dear kl, I was ordained acolyte, cantor and tonsured reader in one ceremony. The Trebnik indicates a unified service for these three, and the Orthodox (outside of communion with Rome) also combine these together.

Although traditionally subdiaconate was conferred separately, and has a separate prayer for installation from the Trebnik, it is often combined with the previous three in one ceremony.

Even the ROCOR Archieraticon which follows a very "high" liturgical usage (even amongst Orthodox) indicates the possibility that all four "minor orders" (acolyte, cantor, reader and subdeacon) may be conferred by the bishop in the same ceremony, but it also gives the rubrics for when subdiaconate is conferred separately and indicates this is the more traditional practice.
By my request Bishop Michael (Wiwchar) ordained me to the subdiaconate separately from the first three minor orders.

In the tradition of the Great Church (Hagia Sophia) the "minor orders" were each conferred in a separate ceremony. There are other minor orders (such as door-keeper) which were present in the Great Church but have fallen into disuse.

Dear Diak,

Do Cantors and Readers wear the same garb in Church?

I too cannot hold a candle to you . . .

Alex

X.B.!

A wonderful Bright Tuesday to you all!


1. The ripidia are used in our parish for the little entrance and the gospel reading and when the bishop is there they are used in the great entrance as well. This is still a cathedral practice in most of the orthodox churches and done only when a bishop is present, however this practice is being brought back among some normal parishes in ROCOR (I know that Archpriest R. Lukianov of Lakewood NJ wrote an article about this). They are held and and waved above the Gifts by the deacon(s) during the anaphora.

2. Servers get a blessing at the beginning of the service from the priest as a sort of permission as do the cantor or choir director(s), bell ringers and others appointed for specific duties. Appart from this just being a nice ritual it also allows the priest to give them any last minute instructions/changes. The servers and deacons get a blessing before they unvest as a sort of dissmissal. This also ensures that everyone doesn't go flying off as soon as the final amen has been sung since most of the time there is still much to be done in terms of clean up after the service. You are not allowed to go until the priest says you are allowed to go, it has a kindof monastic feel to it.

3. I think it is unrealistic to ordain boys to a minor order. I think it is much better to have them learn everything first at an early age, and I don't think any bishop today would ordain a six year old.

KL,

KLIROS is spelled k-l-i-r-o-s (with all due respect). Krylos or krilos is a mistake commonly made by ukrainians because of the words similarity to the ukrainian word krilo or wing (referring to the side wings of the church). My father used to make the same mistake but I have finally got him to change. It comes from the same greek word as clergy or klir, as this is where the extra clergy would stand during the service. When a bishop does not serve he sits on a throne to the side in the kliros. This is considered a place of honour in the church.


cheers to all,

X.B.!

ilya

Dear Ilya Romanovich,

X.B.!

Well, my church doesn't use the ripidia at all, and I've never seen it used in a Toronto Ukie Catholic Church.

For them, "ripidia" is a request to say something twice, not having heard it the first time . . .

Good for your parish - just to see that used is worth the drive to Brampton!

And what about the bell-ringing for the creed and the Dostoyno Yest?

Where does that come from, Cantor Ilya?

Also, some Churches have small icons of Christ and the MOther of God on the sides of the Royal Doors that the priest venerates during censing.

Does your Church have that and can you explain that rite?

(Are you an ordained Cantor?)

Alex

I don't know of any differnce between reader/cantor/psalomschik. An ordained reader is supposed to wear a podryasnik and a stikhar (even though this is rearly done). The original readers vestment was a short or kratkiy phelon (we still use this but only during the ordination) this is a representation of that which is to come, his eventual ordination to priesthood.

ig

Christos Voskrese!!!

Ilya,

How was Pascha as St ELias?? Did everyone get soaked for Wet Monday????

It was a great year. Wonderful weather. We got a visiting deacon (James Bankston) completely soaked, riassa and all. It was quite good.

On bright monday all the clergy wore bright red vestments a la the north. very cool. Not quite zagorsk yet but getting there.

Hospodu Pomolimsa, rtsem vsi!
Khristos Voskrese!

It was great, if only my voice could have lasted a bit longer, I think its gonna take some time to recover.

ilya

Dear Ilya,

Again, could you explain about the bells during the Liturgy?

How many languages are used at your parish in the liturgy?

And does your parish give courses on how to become a cantor, altar server etc.?

I think I might qualify as a candle cleaner . . .

I just might . . .

Alex

Dear Ilya:

I have known for some time that the choir I currently conduct should probably have been called "Kliros" (or whatever transliteration you want to use) but the name is what it is with its built in Ukrainian fault. Hence my moniker.

I'm sorry if it bothers you.

Yours,

kl

And what about the bell-ringing for the creed and the Dostoyno Yest?

Where does that come from, Cantor Ilya?

Also, some Churches have small icons of Christ and the MOther of God on the sides of the Royal Doors that the priest venerates during censing.

Does your Church have that and can you explain that rite?

(Are you an ordained Cantor?)

Alex,

I have never found galician bell ruberics, but I have read and follow the standard vulgate ones. Yet in every set of rubrics I read, they all mention that it is common practice among molorusins (ukrainians) to strike the largest church bell once for every article of the Nicene Creed.
It is always struck nine times during the Hymn to the Mother of God, zadostoynik, or magnificat. On feasts we also ring the largest bell slowly during the Anaphora. Since there are usually people outside the church it calls their attention to what is happening inside. I am sure that in villages and monasteries those who were not able to attend would be able to follow the service by the tolling of the bell.

We have what my father calls "kissing icons" on either side of the Holy Doors. It would be difficult to kiss the main icons since they have oil lamps in front of them. Originally, the place that is now designated for the main icon of Christ was designated for the patron of the temple. Maybe that has something to do with it.

Alas, I am not ordained reader, but I still have a lot to learn (and the thing I cant't stand most are guys that get ordained that don't know anything). Before you take even the first steps of ordination, I believe you should know everyone elses duties and actions as perfectly as your own. This is the only way the liturgical "dance" can go perfectly without everybody stepping on each others toes. I am tired of telling ordained people what to do next and where to stand, they should learn this stuff in the seminary instead of focusing only the administration and philosophical fluff.
But then again, what do I know.

ilya

Alex,

Our services are better than any cantoring/serving courses offered anywhere in our church. We make it easy for anyone off the street to sing with us show up to all the services regularly and before yop know it you have memorized tones (samohlasny, resurrectional, kondak melodies, bulgarian, kievan, podobens, prokimens etc.) which your local cantor kept switching slightly every time he sang, making it impossible to sing along with him.

We have always had a steady stream of deacons and priests who after seminary or during siminary come on every possible occasion to serve and to learn the steps. We are a bootcamp for deacons especially. If you are not standing in the right spot, you will be told. My father will not take the kadylo from you until you offer it to him in the correct position etc. One learns very quickly.

They should just move the seminary to Brampton. HA!

Ilya

Christ is Risen!

I heard that at St. Elias on Bright Tuesday, that there was another Paschal Procession after Liturgy.

This time apparently, they processed to the Church cemetery, which is located on the Church property just behind the Temple.

My information is that they processed with the Paschal Foods (blessed on Paschal) and after a short Paschal Commemoration Service, shared bread, wine, meat, etc. right there in the cemetery!!!

Best of all (seems to me) was that the Procession apparently wound all through the cemetery, with Processional Cross, incensations, etc., singing the Paschal Tropar & Versicles, and the Priest greeted every single person buried there by Name with "XPICTOC BOCKPEC!!!"

Sounds so intense and touching! Apparently it brought tears to the eyes!

Does anyone have more info? And an explanation or two? I had never heard to sharing food there "with" the Reposed. It sounds like they really take the "Communion of Saints" seriously there! Is this a custom unique to this parish or is it a general ritual observed in Orthodoxy (whether "inComm" or not).

XPICTOS BOCKPECE!

And a joyous and exultant Bright Tuesday to all!

Herb

Isn't that the tradition of "Radonitza" The Day of Rejoicing??? It is like sharing the Paschal Joy with our friends and relatives who have gone before.

Christ is Risen!

I also heard that on Paskha, they fired of a bunch of fireworks and rockets during the Blessing of Paschal foods in the parish courtyard at St. Elias!

Does THAT ever sound cool!!!

Anyone know what that's all about?


dear Brian:

thanks for the post...

Sounds great! Can you tell me more?

XPICTOC BOCKPECE!

Happy Bright Tuesday!

Herb

Dear all,

I must say, St. Elias appears to be a temple well worth a visit!

We used to vacation at Rice Lake, northeast of Toronto, but haven't trekked up there for a couple of years. If (when) we return, a side trip to Brampton appears in order!

And kudos to Father Protodeacon David Kennedy for the wealth of information he has provided on the website--all explained very nicely! This RC feels as if he has taken a university course in Byzantine liturgy--can I apply for credits? Hats (or skoufias) off to him!

Great site!

Martin

Khristos Voskrese!

It's true, one can learn so much from hanging out at St. Elias. With the exception of having Fr. Peter Galadza teach us liturgics at Stamford including how to do the full vsenoschnoe bdenie, I will agree that St. Elias is a better Byzantine liturgical learning ground than any seminary program I can think of.

Since this has wandered to St. Elias stories, I will never forget serving as subdeacon for Archpriest Roman for a wedding of a Melkite couple who got married at St. Elias as I recall in October, 2001. Isaiye, likuie...dance, O Isaiah, in that beautiful znamenny melody. At the end the family sang this incredible Arabic song that made me and Archpriest Roman cry...

Heck, if an old Okie Ukie like me can learn how to do this stuff, that should be proof enough of the efficacy of St. Elias. I even wore my red stikhar for Bright Monday this year in union with my brethren to the North

...i smertyu smert' razrushi.

Dear Alex, the "official" guidelines for the Ukrainian Catholic Church in the USA allow either a stikhar or a wide-sleeved riassa over a podriasnyk for readers, cantors and subdeacons who have been set aside through tonsure/ cheirotesia by the Bishop if they are not serving at the altar. If the above are serving at the altar they should be wearing a stikhar (or in the subdeacon's case a stikhar and orar). Our local Orthodox parish also follows this practice.

But I'm for the Bishop/Exarch blessing cantors and tonsuring readers in every parish to perform that holy task .

Voskresennye Khristovo vidivshe...

Dear Herb,

Yes, what St Elias does is an ancient practice of the Kyivan Church and of the Kyivan Caves Lavra in particular.

It was customary, for example, to incense the Relics of the Holy Ones of the Kyiv Lavra on Pascha.

St Anastasius of the Caves was himself doing this one Pascha and he shouted to the Relics of the Fathers: "Christ is Risen!"

To his great surprise and incredible shock, the reposed Fathers then all responded to one in one accord with a loud: "Truly He is Risen!"

This is written up in St Nestor's Chronicles.

Also, many Ukies go to the cemetery to have their Easter brunch after Church services.

All of "Ukrainian Alberta" does this and I studied this as a sociology project.

There is even a film by the National Film Board on this.

The people go to the cemetery to clean up the graves just before Easter. And then they bring the blessed foods and eat among the graves of their relatives and friends.

Often, a blessed Easter egg will be shoved in to the soil on a grave as well . . .

I would do this myself, but only if picnic tables were provided . . .

Alex

Dear Ilya Romanovich,

I have no doubt but that our Church would be a different Church if as many clergy and laity as possible were exposed to the liturgical riches of St Elias Church in Brampton!

(I had pleasant dreams that I was dressed as a subdeacon and was carrying ripidia last night . . . ).

Your parish is the culmination of all that the Kyivan Church was historically and should be today.

I think this is one of the most important topics that can be discussed on a forum such as this one - we spend too much time on less important topics by comparison.

I hope that in future you and Diak and others would bring such topics into the open here to enlighten us all.

And I hope you'll give me a call so we can meet for lunch - on me, of course!!

Alex

Alex is right. This is a good topic.

I have one question: does anyone have any specific information on the wearing of red vestments during Bright Week and on Easter? Written information would be best. I have seen pictures, but the pictures do not sufficiently explain why, except that it looks cool.

Alex, please keep it down at work with all those canons. I am trying to study.

Brian, I thought Radonitsa was on the Tuesday after Thomas Sunday?

Herbigny, how do you find out all about these services at St. Elias so soon?

Daniil

Danill,

you are probably right about Radonitza. Herb's description just reminded me of it.

Christos Voskrese!

Dear Daniil, as I understand it from the Nastol'naya Kniga Sviashchenno-sluzhitelia, Volume 4, Moscow 1983, the practice you mention is to wear bright red, not a darker red as for the feasts of the Cross, for the Liturgy of Pascha itself and Bright Week. White is indicated to be worn for Paschal Matins itself but the bright red is mentioned in the notes. According to the notes this practice is followed in Moscow, on Mt. Athos and in Jerusalem. I have also seen a reference to bright red also being worn for the Nativity.

After all, krasni is both 'red' and 'beautiful', isn't it?


There is a very brief discussion of liturgical colors on the Orthodx Family (ROCOR) website at www.roca.org/OA/32/32f.htm

Dear Daniil,

Yes, yesterday was the opening of Provincial Parliament with the reading of the Throne Speech and we had a 15 gun salute to the Lieutenant Governor.

Tradition is tradition!

Happy studying . . .

Alex

XB!!!

All this talk of cannonades reminds of my Question re the great fireworks and rockets set off at St. Elias apparently during the blessing of Pascha Food Baskets.

What's that all about? Is that also a common and ancient in Greco-Catholic/Orthodox Churches?

Herb

ps: O-C. Thanks for the Cool info re the Cemetery Procession and Ceremonies on Bright Tuesday! Chronicles of St. Nestor, eh? Sweet!

pps: so what's this Radonytza thing that Brian mentioned?

XPICTOC BOCKPECE!

Dear Herb,

Yes, the rockets et al. are done especially in Greece.

I don't know if they do that in Russian cathedrals and monasteries - you'll have to ask Ilya and Daniil, da?

(I think I'm going to be on their hate list after today, if I'm not already . . .)

Alex

Alex,

I think to keep the peace on the board, you need to attend Liturgy at St Elias quite soon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dear Brian,

And, hopefully, when I get there, there won't be pictures of my mug pinned to trees with "Not Wanted" underneath . . .

Alex

no, I don't this would happen but do write "Brian, a soon to be Orthodox Christian, wants to attend this beautiful parish soon!!!"

Dear Brian,

All kidding aside, I certainly would hope that St Elias could formally become a liturgical training centre for our seminarians.

Alex

Dear Alex:

Have you been naughty again?

Don't worry all will be forgiven when you pay us a visit (try not to slip on the flowers strewn in your way).

I am amazed how people who have never been to St. Elias know all about what happens there.

Yes fireworks were set off during the blessing of
Easter baskets.

It is done every year, why doesn't your parish do the same?

I don't think that it relates to any specific eastern tradition, its just something done at St. Elias.

I for one love it; it is in fact part of my cultural tradition.

In Portugal we set off fireworks before outdoor festivals, during processions, or immediately afterwards.

I think it is just something we picked up in China during the age of explorations.

We do a lot of neat things at St. Elias, come and see for yourselves.

defreitas

Dear Jose,

O.K., all right already!

I'll come! I can't stand it any more!

I have to come. I won't sleep well until I do!

I'm sure fireworks will go off in my head as I approach the doors.

I think it might be a bit difficult setting off fireworks at night near a Church like St Nicholas.

But I don't know the laws - perhaps they could do it in the park nearby.

It would be our response to the "Big Bang" theory, eh?

Alex

Dear Alex:

Vesper sevices begin at 7:00 on Saturday evenings.

Matins start at 8:00 on Sunday morning.

Divine Liturgy begins at 10:00.


"Man thou hast spoken the foremost word, get up and [un] bar the door".


defreitas

Dear Jose,

Is that last line for Ilya when he sees me coming?

Alex

Dear Al:

Of course not, but just watch youself when you pass the bell tower.

JL.

Dear Jose,

My wife would want to know how long the Sunday Liturgy is?

Alex

The Rx is: "Nowhere near as long as Liturgy would Seem in some other parishes!" -- if even half of what is posted on the Byz. For. re St. E. is to be believed!

XB!!!

Herb
(if I may be so bold as to answer our esteemed A-OC on behalf of our esteemed Di Freitas)

Dear Herb,

This reminds me of the Latin Catholic who described the Rosary as: "a form of prayer that seems to last for five decades . . ."

I'm sure with all the ripidia-carrying, censing of the cemetery and other liturgical actions that one doesn't see in other parishes, the time must go by quickly!

I'm sure there are people who would want the services to continue on . . .

The Pilgrim in The Way Of said that after he got used to praying the Jesus Prayer ceaselessly, the long monastic services seemed too short for him . . .

Alex

dear Alex-OC:

Christ is Risen!

It's actually true!

I don't know about the Jesus Prayer and am unworthy that it descend into my heart etc.

But, for sure, enjoyable liturgical worship that engages me and helps me to pray and give me a sense of the transcendent and numinous, i.e. helps me to affectively get a sense of my communion with God, is a whole lot shorter than even very short (by the clock) services that are not well done, that do not "transport" one, where, e.g. the priest or people are obviously in a hurry to get out of there, etc.

So, Amen to good services and let the Clock be..."darned"!

XB!

And a joyous Bright Friday to All! Go out and eat some MEAT and a big glass of MILK!

Herb

ps: I hear that special dances are done after Liturgy on Thomas Sunday at St. Elias. Can you tell me about the dancing that happens after Paschal Liturgies? What's that all about? Are there set dances? What's the theological significance? Etc., Etc.?

pps: Let us know your impressions of St. Elias after your visit! And say hello for us to I & D and J and whoever else goes there.

Dear Herb:

The "dancing" that goes on after Paschal Liturgy at St. E's are most probably "hahilky" - ritual dances from Ukraine welcoming spring.

They are an ancient pre-Christian custom that has been woven into a part of the Christian feast of the Rescurrection.

Yours,

kl

Dear Herb,

Darn it, I had fish and chips for lunch . . . but fish is a meat in the East, isn't it?

We have our "hahilky" on Pascha Sunday.

Along with kolbassa, hahilky are a carry-over from pagan times and the Kyivan Church, in the beginning, tried to ban them - but unsuccessfully.

Alex

Dear Alex:

The Divine Liturgy runs to about noon+.

A parish brunch will be held after services this Sunday.

Unfortuately, I will probably not be there this week.


defreitas

Dear Jose,

And I must attend an OCA ordination in Toronto which will probably run longer than that .

And I get to attend the brunch afterwards too!

Alex

Christ is Risen!

So, since the Church opted for the "if you can beat 'em, join 'em" route vis a vis the Hahilky and the Kolbassa (really? Kolbassa is pagan?), how does the Kyivan Church explain/"baptism" these Traditions within the Christian context?

I suppose the same goes for the Water Fight on Bright Monday?

XB!!!

Herb

Dear Herb,

I don't get your sense on Baptism . . .

As you know, the Kyivan Church allowed Baptism by pouring and this is why when Ukies went to live in Russia, they often had to be "rebaptised" by dunking.

The Russians have long suspected the Kyivan Church as being "uniate" in its tendencies.

It began over the Council of Florence when the Kyivan Metropolitan Isidore sided with the Latinophrone Greeks . . .

Alex

Dear Herb:

The Church (and by this I mean the whole Church) also adopted an "if you can't beat them, join them" attitude in setting the time of year that the Feast of the Nativity (Saturnalia, anyone?) would be celebrated.

Maybe you'd like to do away with the Christmas tree as well becasue that's a pagan tradition, too.

Yours,

kl

Dear KL,

Good point, Big Guy!

And didn't St Paul himself speak to this when he said that everything is sanctified by prayer and the Word of God?

The Celts were famous for "saining" or Christianizing/sanctifying pagan practices (such as holly and ivy, by the way) by making a Sign of the Cross over them etc.

Alex

Christ is Risen!

I'm just asking how the Church explains/theologises these ex-pagan rites/foods.

That is what I meant by my question about how the Church "baptises" them, i.e. re-understands them in the Christian context.

XB & Joyous Bright Friday.

Herb

Dear Herb,

Oh!

Sorry . . .

The kolbassa is simply seen as another acceptable form of meat, along with lamb etc.

I once read an Old Believer explanation about eating pork meat, that was formerly forbidden by the Old Law.

It said that Christ abolished the Old Law with His New Covenant and so this was now acceptable.

The hahilky dances are interpreted to be like the dancing of King David before the Ark of the Covenant, the dance of spiritual rejoicing in response to Christ's invitation to us to "rejoice" at His Resurrection that makes ours possible.

It's all in the interpretation!

A joyous Bright Friday to you as well!

I'm going to gorge myself on meat at my in-laws tonight!

I take Easter very seriously you see . . .

Alex

XB!

WOW!

Now THAT'S theology!

Yeah, I too heard something about the Old Believers and how the Christ somehow sanctified pigs - in fact I think I saw it in an NFB film on the StaroVery! (their version of the sign of the Cross (not just the Xptogramme but also that they seem to end up with the fingers down at the navel again) seems really cool too!)

I agree completely! I think the obligation to feast is just as compulsory as the obligation to fast!

Joyous Bright Weekend! (TGI"B"F)?

Le Christ est resucite!

Herb

ps: that you feasted on Fish during Bright Week, just proves that your monoker describes you accurately O Orthodox Catholic one! XB!

Dear Herb,

XB! + BB!

Actually, I think the Old Ritualists bring their arm down to their side which can look like their bringing it down to their navel again . . .

I showed that film you mention to my religion class and they all loved it!

Especially all that frolicking with the girls when the elders weren't watching . . .

They've done studies on the influence of religiosity on women in Latin America and found that it does give them, among other things, a better enjoyment of sexuality.

It's too bad you couldn't attend some of my religion classes . . .

(Some teachers did sneak in at the back at times, but only when they knew exactly what the Topic of the Week was going to be . . . ).

Alex

And what's this "Artos" thing all about? Is it a Paska? Is it a big Prosphoron? Is it ever eaten? Is there a ritual for the distribution/eating thereof? Where does it come from? What does it mean?

Christ is Risen!

Herb

Dear Herb,

Yes, the Artos is like a big paska and is covered with a representation of the Resurrection of Christ - the Bread of Life.

It is kissed and then divided up for people to eat on St Thomas' Sunday.

Alex

XB!

I understand that the Artos is blessed with a special blessing both on Pascha and on Thomas Sunday. And as you point out, it is even venerated!

Any idea as to its theological significance? Its origin?

I imagine there is some special way/solemnity in which it is distributed and/or consumed.

Christ is Risen!

Herb

Dear Herb,

"Artos" means "yeast-risen bread" in Greek and is blessed on the night of Pascha.

It symbolizes the Risen Christ and remains on an analogion before the Royal Doors, and is carried in daily Paschal Processions.

ON Bright Saturday, it is broken into pieces and distributed to the faithful.

People beleve that the Artos and the Theophany Holy Water can be a possible substitute for Holy Communion, if actual Holy Communion is not available.

Artos, like Prosphora and antidoron, are to be eaten on an empty stomach.

Artos, by tradition, is to be consumed daily, little piece by little piece, over the course of an entire year, from Pascha to Pascha!

Here is a prayer before consuming blessed Bread and Holy Water:

O Lord my God, may Thy Holy Gift and Thy Holy Water be unto the enlightenment of my mind, unto the strengthening of my spiritual and physical powers, unto the health of my soul and body, unto the taming of my passions and weaknesses, according to Thy limitless mercy, through the prayers of Thy Most Pure Mother and of all Thy Saints. Amen.

Alex

Alex

XB Alex!

That is So Cool!

You never cease to amaze!

But, are we talkin' about miraculous Bread here? If every parishioner gets a piece of the Artos - is the piece big enough to last the entire year (not to mention it going stale, etc.)

In any case, still COOL!

Herb

ps: apparently the Artos at St. Elias has a terrific Seal depicting the Resurrection, instead of the more common (in some Ukrainian parishes) metal icon shield thing tied on it.

Dear Herb,

I guess you would need a good-sized piece of the Artos to cut away at it daily for a year.

But it is possible - one may communion of it using the smallest particle. In the same way, the blessed willows from Palm Sunday are kept in the Icon corner all year and so are the blessed candles from the Feast of the Meeting ("Candlemas") and the Holy Water from the Theophany.

Poppy-seeds are blessed on August 1st, our Administrator's birthday, FYI, the Feast of the Maccabees ("Mak" in Ukrainian is "poppy-seed") and are kept until the Nativity.

Yes, St Elias is a great parish, and even a model parish.

But we shouldn't overly exaggerate its greatness . . .

Alex

Gentlemen Please.

St. Elias is a humble Christian community that endeavors to serve God in the fullest way possible.

Nothing more, nothing less.

There is no greatness here.

This thread was started just to let the outside community know about our Pascha schedual.


defreitas

Dear Jose,

Humble, but touchy, no?

O.K., I'll get back to work.

Alex

XB!

From what I have seen on the Forum re St. E., it would indeed be difficult to exaggerate their greatness!

And their humility (cf. di Freitas' posting) makes them seem Even More Great!

Christ is Risen! (and viva St. E.!)

Herb

And while we're at it, we could never exaggerate A-OC's greatness either!

Amazing, Alex: the prayer (you posted above) before consuming Holy Water and Artos, blessed prosphora, and/or antidoron was included by my OCA priest in this Sunday's bulletin in an article he wrote entitled: WHAT IS ARTOS?

OrthodoxEast

At our parish after the Liturgy we carried the Artos to the hall with priest and clergy vested, the servers first, then people and the clergy last singing Christos Voskrese/Christ is Risen, and once in the hall at a prepared table the priest prayed the prayer from the Trebnik for the fraction of the Artos and distributed it to everyone with the Paschal greeting.

A common Athonite tradition is to take the Artos to the refectory in procession with the singing of "Christos Anesti", and the prayer of fraction is said by Hegumen on a specially prepared table or plate in the refectory and passed to the monks by the Hegumen with the Paschal greeting.

In some parishes the priest prays the prayer of the fraction after the Pre-Ambonal prayer and distributes the Artos instead of antidoron to faithful at the end of the Divine Liturgy when the faithful come to venerate the icon of the Resurrection, while Paschal hymns are sung, etc.

The Resurrectional Artos seals mentioned earlier are readily available from Greece, Bulgaria and Russia. I also like the Hutsul/Carpathian tradition of braiding a "crown of thorns" of dough around the edge of the Artos, a braided dough cross on top in the center of the artos, and "X B" of dough braids on either side of the upright of the cross on top of the Artos.

My wife is our parish Artos chef which drives me crazy on Great and Holy Saturday afternoon smelling that in the oven She made an extra ornate Artos this year and gave it as a gift to a new Serbian mission for their Pascha.

>>Also, how many moms who didn't know better would freak out when they found out that their sons had just taken the first step in holy orders to priesthood?>>

Hello from a new member of the forum...
as the mom of two altar boys, I thought it was great when I found out that my boys had taken their 'first step'. We are still officially Roman Church at the moment and both my boys served when we went to our Roman Parish, but my older son never considered a vocation to the priesthood seriously until we started attending, and he started serving, at our Byzantine parish. St. Elias parish sounds much like our parish. As a matter of fact, if I hadn't seen the name of your parish in the beginning, I would have thought you were describing our Liturgies...LOL. We also had water fights during Bright week, but the girls got their chance to get even with the boys on Tuesday.

Dear OrthodoxEast,

Do you see what effect just ONE attendance at an OCA Divine Liturgy has on me?

Can you imagine what would become of me if I attended regularly?

God bless,

Alex

Dear Alex,

CHRIST IS RISEN!

Yes, Alex, I can see. Come more often. You're more than welcome!

OrthodoxEast

Dear OrthodoxEast,

I think I will . . .thank you!

Alex

St. Elias' website appears to be down.
I hope this is not permanent, as it is excellent.

Does anyone know what happened?

Michael

Dear Ladyhawke:

Nice to know that there are exceptions to the rule when it comes to moms not freaking out when their sons mention the priesthood.

Dear Krylos Leader...
when my two sons and my daughter were born, I gave them back to God, not knowing at the time that there was a precedence for that sort of thing . While it the choice is up to God, my prayer has been that my sons will be called to the priesthood and my daughter to the life of a religous. And if God has different plans for their lives, well, that is okay too...as long as what ever they do serves Him.

It is a shame the reaction I get from other women when I talk about my prayers for my children...they run the gamut from:"Don't you want to be a grandmother?" to, "why did you bother having children at all then?". So I have learned to keep my thoughts, my dreams and prayers for my children to myself, and not let others know beyond a doubt that I really am insane...LOL.

Dear Ladyhawke,

And when I was born, my dad took me by the right foot and said, "This one will be a priest . . ."

O.K., so he wasn't as good a prophet as he thought he was - it's a good thing he hung onto his day job!

What you mentioned recalls what happened to my grandfather.

He was born crippled and unable to walk until the age of seven.

At that point, some holy water was brought back from Rome from the Church marking the spot of St Paul's martyrdom.

My great grand-dad, Leo, called the whole village together and made a vow before God that if his son John could walk, he would be a priest.

He then dipped him into the water three times and put him on his feet - John walked for the first time ever.

And he walked for a full seventy years as a priest. . .

Sniff . . .

Alex

I guess that makes me insane, too.........lol

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
[QB] Dear Ladyhawke,

And when I was born, my dad took me by the right foot and said, "This one will be a priest . . ."

O.K., so he wasn't as good a prophet as he thought he was - it's a good thing he hung onto his day job!

Dear Alex...
I have been reading your posts(among others)for quite a while before making the plunge to join the forum and I have to admit, your dad's poor ability as prophet was our gain...I mean, if you had become a priest, we might not have had the pleasure of your company on the forum.
Christos Anesti
Vie

With you there was never any doubt.

About seven years ago, I miscarried at about 9 weeks, 3 days before Otpust in Uniontown. I went anyway (there are benches ALL OVER the place) sang the three liturgies I'd been assigned, received holy Annointing, and took it easy. A friend who prays for ladies who have problems having babies told me flat out with absolute certainty, "You will be pregnant next year at Otpust."

The following year, I was 8 months preggo-out-to-here at Uniontown. (She cried when she saw me.) Something possessed me to approach Vladyko Judson (who I had never met) one afternoon, and tell him what had happened the previous year - and that I was praying for a kid with a vocation. He gave that wonderful grin of his and said "I'll pray too."

The following year, with little Maximilian Seraphim in the stroller, we took part in the Children's procession, and found ourselves in the Metropolitan's line. He had a prodigious memory for people. He remembered me, and our encounter the previous year. I confirmed that yes, this was the kid, and he said "I'll ordain him next year."

I am firmly of the belief that the reason God called Vladyko Judson to the Home Office was to give us a powerful intercessor here. He was a man of his word, so I am operating under the assumption that he continues to pray for my son's potential future vocation.

This past year at Otpust, I put my 9 month old little guy Wulf Elias into the stroller, took him to the cemetery and introduced him to the Metropolitan. Told him I was unilaterally throwing Wulf in on the deal. Somehow I don't think he minds.


So save me a seat in the loony bin too.


Sharon

Dear Sharon...
It will be an honor to sit beside you in the loony bin...your story was both touching and inspiring and I have no doubt that in years to come you will be the blessed mother who attends the ordination of both her sons.
I have a feeling that there may be more of us crazy folk out there than most realize...

Vie

Dear Ladyhawke:

You made a comment earlier about people asking you "don't you want to be a grandmother?"

I certainly hope you set them straight on the possibility of the ordination of a married man.

Talk about having your cake and eating it, too.

Yours,

kl

XB Sarum/Michael!

I heard the St. Elias website was back up again, and sure 'nuff, it is!

same Url apparently: http://www.saintelias.com/

Yeah, it really looks like a cool parish!

Christ is Risen!

Herb

Father Richard, the webmaster, relayed to me via e-mail that he will also be adding some more music clips in the next week or so as well.