My only concern with the plight of the non-reformed Roman Catholics is this: why are Eastern Christians being drawn into the melee? There seems to be some sort of parallel being drawn that equates our Liturgy with conservative liturgy in the Roman Church.

It's not. We Easterns do what we do. We change it when we need to (or, sometimes when we are kinda-sorta pressured to do so -from inside our Church or outside it). We celebrate in the vernacular by and large. We have substantial participation in the Liturgy by the people, and don't abrogate that role to altar boys who cant Latin phrases (usually poorly) that they don't understand in response to the priest's Latin exclamations, also oftentimes poorly understood.

While I am more than supportive of ANYONE who comes through our parish doors, and I think it is our Christian obligation to welcome them and give them succor (love that word!!), I also realize that there are some who are not "seeking", but rather rebelling. And with them, I'm not sure that I have the patience that is obligatory for the true "seekers", especially the non-churched for whom I'd do almost anything.

Above all is the principle of Christian Charity. I would hope that among our Roman brethren that there would be both acceptance of those who think differently, but also an appreciation on the part of the 'different thinkers' that a large number of others think in a different way and that they should not be denigrated or chastised for their views and practices.

The ultimate goal is evangelization, as Brother Lauffer has constantly promoted. He is right. We need to bring the pagans and the heathen and the 'crazies' to an understanding of Christ's message of love of God and love of one's neighbor. Latin has nothing to do with it. It is the Gospel. Nothing more, nothing less.

Succor the refugees for a time, but then bid them 'adieu' and bring them back to their own community. Unless we Easterns do this, we are endangering our communities to succumb to the vicissitudes of the Latin Church, and we serve NO ONE, least of all our own people in trying to be kind to them.

As Easterns, we have the obligation to recover our own legitimate traditions and to re-introduce them to our people through catechesis and education. We CAN'T try to integrate the disaffected Latins into this process without doing violence to our own people. And that is NOT acceptable, EVER!

Christos Anesti! Christos Voskrese! Al-Masiah cham! (etc., etc. etc......)

Christ is Risen!!

It's funny how this topic has opened wide after a month of quiet. There have been some excellent postings here.

I remember the Latin Tridentine mass fairly well from my childhood and I have a attended a few locally around Chicago over the years, both SSPX and indult. I do however appreciate the "novus" Ordo too!

I must confess however that if I had encountered that family the way Medved describes it, I do not think I could have controlled myself. Forgive me for saying this but it enrages me to even think about it. Maybe I need some remedial something or counseling but I would have wanted to #&*%# that ^@*^@$&*( all the way to %&*#@*!!!!!!

Yes, that's right. I think he did all right.

There, I'm glad I got that off my chest. Now I need to do a major examination of conscience.

Michael

Extreme conservatism and liberlism can always hinder a church. I am an Orthodox who knows Latin rather well and find a beauty in the few Latin masses I have visited. I can see the traditionalist shock with new new order of the chuch.

I have visited a Roman Catholic church that was built after Vatican II. One would think they were in a Protestant church. There were no stained glass windows, statues, icons, or even a crucifix. Just a large wooden cross in the front of the church. I was also surprised to see guitar playing in the mass. It seems to me that one of the outcomes of Vatican II was to leave behind traditions in some churches. As an Orthodox, I find this a puzzling thing about the Roman Church. This is not to say that all churches are doing this, but is surprising to see such a departure from tradition.

I have encountered this more than once, Yes it is irritating. I agree they do tend to err on the side of confrontation and contraversy. The family probably went out to breakfast and high fived each other after the event. Trad. Catholics are attracted to the Byzantine catholic church because of it's traditional "look" and "feel". The next time an sspx'er and family walks in to your church. (There will be a next time) go out of your way to introduce yourself and kindly explain the traditions of the Eastern Church. If they are adamant about "having a latin mass". Go to this website and print out your state. Direct them to a local latin parish. This worked like a charm for me.


http://www.latinmass.org/states/

I have encountered this more than once, Yes it is irritating. I agree they do tend to err on the side of confrontation and contraversy. The family probably went out to breakfast and high fived each other after the event. Trad. Catholics are attracted to the Byzantine catholic church because of it's traditional "look" and "feel". The next time an sspx'er and family walks in to your church. (There will be a next time) go out of your way to introduce yourself and kindly explain the traditions of the Eastern Church. If they are adamant about "having a latin mass". Go to this website and print out your state. Direct them to a local latin parish. This worked like a charm for me.


http://www.latinmass.org/states/

Who was it that said, "When in Rome, do as the Romans do?" I've always felt that when in Kiev, or Antioch, or Wittenburg for that matter, you should do as they do.

Could you have handled it better? Sure. But how many of us would want to hear we were in Communion with the Devil? Considering you wanted to hit him, and didn't shows you were at least wrestling with your human nature.

PS: There are some rather bare Roman Churches out there. But I have been to some pretty bare Eastern Churches as well. So much of this has to do with the parish community. When I hear people complain about how bare the parish is, I ask them how the fundraiser for the icons is going? When I go to my mother's girlhood parish, every icon has a grandfather, uncle, or cousin behind it...and a lot of money and effort for poor, honest farm folk.

Neil

Neil:

I've got to agree with you. As a professional who works in every kind or type of church, the most Christian approach that I have ever had modeled to me was by one early mentor who told me that we should try to enter the mind of those we serve and become like them out of respect for them as we served them. So when I go into an Orthodox, Ruthenian, or Ukrainian parish, I venerate icons, use the sign of the cross as it is done there, and generally try to let those I serve know that I respect them and the way they show reverence for the sacred space that they have fashioned for the glory of God. The same goes for Anglican, Lutheran, Reformed, Baptist, or whatever. That doesn't mean denying anything that I am and it does not mean that I am patronizing anyone. It means that on a very human level I am trying to show them respect by the way I carry myself in their home. I believe that it is similar to being a good guest in someone's home when one is invited to dinner: I don't insist that my hostess take back her stuffed pork chops on Friday just because I am fasting. I try to be one of the group wherever I go.

Dr. John:

Have to agree with you, too. The Byzantine experience is not the same as the conservative Latin experience. But please have patience with people like this. I came on the experience of the Orthodox Church and the Byzantine Catholic Churches with an attitude of "tell me about yourself and fill me in on how and why you do everything you do." There is a reason behind everything and the assumption that the same movement in a different culture means the same thing is pretty parochial, I think you'd admit.

Unfortunately, there are those who have gone back to some early sources in the Latin Church that see the whole oriental experience as a Greek/Russian/Egyptian/Syrian/etc. translation of an earlier form of the Latin spiritual experience--somehow that these people just "haven't caught up yet." I have a book written almost 100 years ago that leaves one with that kind of impression (sadly).

But I'd have to agree with you, too, by repeating something wrote in an earlier post on another thread: don't let anything or anyone disturb your peace or destroy your focus on Christ. Better to ask those folks to leave. And I'm about evenly split on whether to let one's anger have free rein or hold one's temper as one asks them to hit the road.

Sadly, I still firmly believe that anyone's approach to Christ that includes hatred of another is not from Christ. Hate your neighbor is not something I find in my Bible or catechism. In fact, they both say to love even one's enemy . . .

Mark:

May God continue to be with you. We've got to bear with one another on the one hand and then St. Paul reminds us somewhere else not to spend time arguing with those whose only purpose is to stir up contention. I've got to believe that some of these folks are in a grieving mode where they are lashing out in anger against the whole world and everyone and everything in it. Makes me sad to think that people can become so withdrawn that they cannot do anything but make every situation they enter part of their tremendous pain and isolation. But I still think that it sounds like the grief reaction that I deal with each day with families I serve.

Hang in there, brother.

BOB