Dear friends,

For those of you who were unaware, there was a struggle in my home parish (Homer City) over whether to stand or kneel during the anaphora on Sundays. The pastor, a wonderful young priest with a zeal for the Gospel, gave the parishioners the option of standing, as this was in conformity with Byzantine tradition. A small but vocal group of parishioners complained that this was heresy, and wrote to the Metropolitan complaining.

Well, the Metropolitan has intervened, and is requiring everyone to kneel on Sundays. He instructed us that kneeling on Sundays is the official policy of the Archeparchy, and we must follow it. This confuses me, because the folks on this board informed me (apparently erroneously) that standing is the authentic Byzantine tradition! What's the deal here?

Perhaps we really are just Roman Catholics who celebrate a funny Mass. I feel deceived by all of those folks who told me that this was an Eastern Church.

Please excuse me, because I'm feeling rather disillusioned with the Byzantine Catholic Church. I could use your prayers. Perhaps I need to talk to a priest or someone about my continuing disappointments with this Church. I'm in a spiritual malaise.

God bless,
Anthony

Dear Dragani,

What exactly did he say? Did he really say that everyone 'must kneel' on Sundays?

I can understand the pastoral decision of not being too hard on those who want to kneel. It is not their fault, as much as their own formation. We cannot 'undo' harshly in an elderly or scrupulous person, what has been a whole life of latin formation.

But I am not sure even a Metropolitan has the authority to issue such a decree, which is contrary to the canons. I hope he has not done so.

Check out canon 20 of Nicea:

Forasmuch as there are certain persons who kneel on the Lord's Day and in the days of Pentecost (Pascha), therefore, to the intent that all things may be uniformly observed everywhere (in every parish) it seems good to the holy Synod that prayer be made to God standing.

canon 90 of Council in Trullo

We have received from our divine Fathers the canon law that in honour of Christ's resurrection, we are not to kneel on Sundays.
[it continues to lay down that this applies from the beginning of Vespers of Sat evening, until Sunday evening, the traditional Byzantine day].

Dragani, you can take comfort from the fact that if even the Holy Fathers had to pronounce on this point (repeatedly!), it must have been going on here and there even in the ancient and unlatinized Church of the eastern Fathers, or they would not have had to write something about it. So this is not new, or merely a latinization.

However, before I write to the Metropolitan to complain about his decision, I would like to know exactly what he has said.

thanks,

Christian




[This message has been edited by Christian (edited 01-04-2001).]

Dear Brother D---

I am sorry to hear of your hierarch's decision about kneeling on Sunday. Even we of the Orthodox Church have been fighting this in the 20th Century. In some of the Byzantine Orthodox Churches in the US during the past 20th Century, the introduction of pews and the practice of kneeling during the epicilisis began.

In the last 50 years with a desire to return fully to what the Church fathers have taught, we see a rise in churches leaving that recent innovation and returning to the practice of no pews and standing during the descent of the Holy Spirit over the Gifts. It has been a hard fight in which many of the older people were the ones who sought to hold onto the newer way. They did it because it is was the way they had been taught as children by an Orthodox church in America that was seeking to become more American (i.e. Latinized or Protestantized). Now with the fresh blood of converts coming into the church, there is less of a need to be "Americanized" and more of a desire to be traditional and byzantine in practice.

What will happen? As more of the Laity seek greater union with the Tradition of the Holy Fathers, more will return to the Byzantine way. The Elderly die out and with them the new innovation of kneeling and pews.


In my Orthodox jurisdiction, a wise hierarch has let it be known that it is important to teach the proper way and that the people will follow. In my parish there are both kneelers and standers, however in the last several years there are now more standers than kneelers. The kneelers are not condemned and the Standers are not condemned---the wise parish priest simply teaches during Great Lent and the Paschal Season the canons and leaves it open to one following them. The result has been dramatic with many former kneelers now standing and understanding the reason they do so.

My prayers are with you, your parish priest, and your parish as they struggle through this challenge to becoming more Byzantine in practice. I pray also for your hierarch that he may have the courage to teach rightly the Holy Tradition of the Holy Fathers and the Canon.

Your brother in Christ,
Thomas

>>Well, the Metropolitan has intervened, and is requiring everyone to kneel on Sundays. He instructed us that kneeling on Sundays is the official policy of the Archeparchy, and we must follow it.<<

Dear Anthony,

First, please know that you are in my prayers. Know also that I greatly admire your steadfastness in what you know is right and your willingness to endure.

Second, unless I saw the letter for myself I would not believe a word of it.

Third, if what you report is true, it is possible that this is another step in the recent round of new latinizations in the Byzantine Catholic Church. In the Passaic, Parma and Van Nuys eparchies they have implemented "new rubrics". Some of the "new rubrics" are legitimate corrections of laziness or abuse on the part of some of our priests. Most, however, are nothing more than a wholesale adoption of latin forms involving the taking aloud of many of the prayers prayed quietly by the priest in order to match the Roman model. It makes good liturgical sense to take all or part of the anaphora (Eucharistic Prayer) aloud (or quietly as the people are singing, as the Spirit guides). But there is no rhyme or reason on why the selected prayers should have a mandate to be taken aloud while others are ignored. This, together with the reduction or elimination of many of the litanies trashes a liturgy that works and the proof that it works is that it is loved by the people just as it is.

But there is more liturgical nonsense yet to come. Just wait until Pittsburgh forces the Vespers / Liturgy of Saint Basil / Pascha Matins combination upon its parishes. The three don't work when combined (each being shortened). No one has bothered to consider the historical development of our liturgy and just why it needs to be changed. But this too shall pass! All we need to is be patient and be steadfast for what is right!

The Metropolitan is a good man who loves Christ and His Church, as do all our bishops. Let us pray for them. Let us pray that the Lord lead us to a renewal that is true to our Byzantine heritage and that all this liturgical nonsense quickly come to an end.

Let us also pray for your pastor. If your pastor did give this option (which is certainly part of our authentic tradition) and then was overruled by the Metropolitan then the Metropolitan has effectively taken away all authority and credibility from your pastor.

Moose,

What parts of the Divine Liturgy celebrated by the Pittsburgh Metropolia have been suppressed? I have only been going to a Byzantine parish for a few months and have been to Divine Liturgy at the OCA once. The Liturgy at the OCA parish seemed a little longer, but then Father's sermon was also very long. Does the Byzantine Catholic Church omit parts that OCA doesn't? I ask this in good faith.

Sounds like a political mess...

As Thomas as pointed out there are Orthodox parishes where everyone kneels during the epiklesis. I once asked the pastor of the Greek parish I was attending why this was so and his reply was: "Well, we know it's not following the ancient tradition but back then people went to church more than once a week. Nowadays people only go to church on Sundays and this gives them a chance to express their devotion." I personally prefer standing in the Byzantine Church (although I kneel in the Roman). I don't think that God judges anyone on this issue however.

Is there any chance the text of the Metropolitan's letter could be posted? The Eparchy of Van Nuys recently stated that there was to be no kneeling from Vespers Saturday through Sunday--this from the May-June 2000 issue of their newsletter http://www.eparchy-of-van-nuys.org/docs/newsletter_0006.html

"2nd According to the ancient tradition of the Church confirmed by the first Ecumenical Councils, the faithful are to stand—not kneel—for all public prayers from Vespers on Saturday evenings until Sunday evening Vespers in celebration of the Resurrection of Christ. At the Divine Liturgy, the faithful are to make a profound bow—that is a bow at the waist—during the words of consecration and the during the invocation of the Holy Spirit at the epiclesis."

Bear in mind, this is not talking about during the Paschal season. This is a year-round directive.

Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

[This message has been edited by DTBrown (edited 01-08-2001).]

Anthony --

Interesting.

Re kneeling -- I have seen many different pratices in Orthodox parishes. In many of them, there are at least a few who kneel during the epiclesis. In many parishes, many people perform a full prostration immediately after the epiclesis (as does the priest). Others simply bow from the waist or simply cross themselves.

Interestingly, in Romania I saw a lot of kneeling during liturgies. Mind you, these were weekday liturgies, but it certainly was the case that a lot of people liked to kneel (a stark contrast to the "we pray standing up" rule that is sometimes too strictly followed, I think).

Moose -- I think that the taking of prayers aloud is a trend in Orthodoxy as well. In most OCA parishes I have visited most of the Anaphora is aloud, the epiclesis is aloud, as well as several other prayers (ie prayer before the Gospel). In other parishes, even more prayers are taken aloud (like the prayers after the antiphons, for example). It has the effect of lengthening the liturgy and makes it flow somewhat less smoothly, but I think it's overall a very good thing because otherwise most people don't know what's being prayed (really, or they only know it in theory by reading it in a book rather than actually hearing it). In my former Melkite parish, the prayers were done traditionally (ie not taken aloud except in small snippets and doxologies) -- and now that I have been to many litugies where the anaphora and other key prayers are taken aloud, I have to say that in my opinion it is a good thing to move toward taking these prayers aloud. I don't think it's a latinization -- it's really about getting people to understand the liturgy that is being prayed, to involve them more fully in that prayer. I think there should be room left for judgment here as to what to say aloud and what not to say aloud, but I think the move to saying more of the liturgical prayer aloud is overall a positive development (although it can be a jarring change to some).

Brendan

Personally, I am less disturbed to the question of are we following some canon from 15 centuries ago that this issue of dueling Metropolitians and pastors ordering posture. How do they enforce this? Do the ushers come by and kneecaps folks who are standing?

I'll defend both parties right to have their point of view, but I think it is wrong to employ physical force during the Liturgy.

K.

[This message has been edited by Kurt (edited 01-05-2001).]

Brendan,

The taking of the Anaphora (Eucharistic Prayer) aloud is something I approve of and endorse. My parish has been doing this for more than 20 years.

What I am objecting to is both the reduction and elimination of litanies and the overall change in the flow of the Divine Liturgy that is much more akin to the style of the Roman Mass. It is the litanies that give shape to our liturgical services and without them the whole liturgy becomes very uncomfortable.

This is not a latinization in the sense that we are purposefully imitating the Roman Catholics, but it is a latinization in the sense that we are changing the whole flow of the Divine Liturgy to something that is possibly more comfortable to Western Christians. I agree with the theory - championed even within Orthodoxy by Bishop Kallistos [Ware]. But I disagree with the radicalness of fixing something that already works in a way that doe the entire liturgy a disservice by radically changing the flow it has developed in the last thousand years.


Spidey75,

>>What parts of the Divine Liturgy celebrated by the Pittsburgh Metropolia have been suppressed?<<

Some of the objections:

-The prayer of the Great Synapte (the first litany of the Divine Liturgy) is recited aloud (not sung) and the little litanies and prayers of the litanies between the antiphons are omitted, causing a very disjoined combination of antiphons, hymn to the Only-Begotten Son and Third Antiphon.

-The action of the Great Entrance grinds to a halt while the prayer of the offering is recited and ended with the sung doxology "Through the mercies…."

-The anaphora is recited aloud (which I think is wonderful, but there should be some discretion on the part of the celebrant to follow the Spirit and perhaps take it quietly at times).

-The litany prior to the Lord's Prayer has the first three petitions joined together in one long petition, the rest of the litany is omitted, and the priest's prayer introducing the "Our Father" is taken aloud.

-The litany after Communion is reduced to "Let us pray to the Lord", the prayer of the litany and the doxology.

There is more, but these are the biggies. I know that to some this really doesn't sound like a huge difference. But these changes make a huge difference in the flow of the Divine Liturgy. I have asked for an explanation of why certain prayers are now mandated aloud and others skipped but have never gotten an answer. It appears that an exact uniformity among parishes is much more important than spirit-filled liturgy. It also appears that whoever is driving these changes is simply pushing a personal list of favorite prayers at the expense of other prayers.


>>Does the Byzantine Catholic Church omit parts that OCA doesn't?<<

Yes and no. There is great variety within the OCA as to what is taken and what is not taken, demonstrated mostly in the litanies taken. There is also a great difference between the standard OCA usage, the [older] standard Byzantine Catholic usage and the standard Greek Orthodox usage (it is not uncommon for the Greeks to omit all of the litanies between the Gospel and the Cherubic Hymn). I am probably explaining myself poorly, but I am not rallying against any specific abbreviations but rather the whole change of the flow of the Divine Liturgy because of the mandated way of what is taken, what is taken aloud, what is omitted and what is taken quietly. A quick survey of parishes in the Byzantine Catholic Churches shows that those parishes taking a fuller liturgy are much more vibrant. Those taking the minimums, including the new rubrics with a severely altered and uncomfortable flow of the liturgy

Regarding the issue of kneeling, I should clarify that what I object to is the mandate, not the action. I have visited a number of OCA parishes that kneel at the same times as Byzantine Catholic parishes as well as during the Lord's Prayer. Overall, this is not a huge issue in the life of a parish. While people should stand rather than kneel on Sundays the method used to change their behavioral pattern from kneeling to standing should be one of education, time and patience. Education, in that the custom of standing for prayer should be a standard part of the parish education program (where it fits). Time in that this type of change should be accomplished over a generation (25-30 years). Patience in that one should set the standard for the parish and then quietly keep on educating people on what it mean to be Byzantine. The latinizations came upon us during the course of the 300 years following the unions with Rome. A great amount of restoration has been accomplished in the last 20 years (due in large part to an ongoing effort on the part of our bishops). But full restoration will undoubtedly take several generations.


Kurt,

>>How do they enforce this? Do the ushers come by a kneecaps folks who are standing?<<

Physical force is not necessary. One can feel the glare of the babas behind you as they burn holes in your kneecaps so that you fall on your knees.

"-The prayer of the Great Synapte (the first litany of the Divine Liturgy) is recited aloud (not sung)"

Huh? That seems like a funny way to start off a sung liturgy. Is it that it takes too long to sing it? Even so, it only takes 4-5 minutes at the most. Time well spent, IMO, as the Great Litany is one of the finest prayers in the liturgy.

and the little litanies and prayers of the litanies between the antiphons are omitted"

That seems strange, too, as the prayers of the litanies are very beautiful. I have heard these prayers taken aloud in some parishes and they really are very good.

"The action of the Great Entrance grinds to a halt while the prayer of the offering is recited and ended with the sung doxology "Through the mercies….""

That *does* seem disruptive.

I tend to agree with Moose that these changes *seem* to be pastorally questionable.

Brendan,

The Great Synapte itself is sung but the prayer "O Lord our God, Whose might is beyond description, whose glory surpasses all understanding…" is recited. The doxology "For to You is do all glory and honor and worship…" is then sung. In the Passaic Eparchy this is a mandate. In the other eparchies it is apparently just they way they do it.

I am not sure as to what the reasoning is. It really kills the flow of the liturgy. Everything the singing gets up to a spirit-filled pitch and pace the action of the liturgy stops dead for a recited prayer. But even if these prayers were sung many of them would halt the flow.

Best wishes to all for a joyful Feast of the Theophany! This moose finally gets to take the Christmas lights out of his antlers.

Moose

Anthony,

Now, don't you go getting disillusioned. You have been given a calling by God for evangelism. Just this morning I was Chrismated. How are you and I going to work together if you get discouraged?

Good brother, I have seen many compromises with Latin ways. Over Christmas I attended Liturgy at the "Sacred Heart Byzantine Catholic Church" in Livonia, Michigan. Father Ivan is a wonderful Godly man. Yet: the church looked like a Roman Catholic or Protestant Church with a few icons hanging from the walls. Moreover, they have bolted down pews and kneelers. Everyone but me knelt. I remained standing.

Nevertheless, Father Loya is clear that we are slowly but surely returning to the ancient ways. We stand. He often speaks about the necessity of taking responsibility for our worship to God. He has said, "please, don't stare at me. I have responsibilities to worship and so do you. Your worship is not dependent upon my worship." Sound advice and, I submit as others have already, the wave of the future.

You and I are part of that wave.

Glory to Jesus Christ! Glory to Him forever!

Dan Lauffer

[This message has been edited by CD Lauffer (edited 01-08-2001).]

My Friend Anthony:

Don't be discouraged. This is a small issue. I can affirm, as others already have, that Orthodox kneel as well. I have been to Russian (OCA), Carpatho-Russian, Greek and Antiochian Orthodox Churches and the Antiochians were the only ones who didn't kneel. However, I don't think anyone would accuse the others of being Latinizied.

Yes, standing is the traditional Eastern position and kneeling is cited as a penitential posture incompatible with the joy of the Resurrection, at least that is how Eastern theologians and liturgists see it. But I wonder if those that kneel see it in these terms. Unfortunately, these people were raised in an environment that saw conformity with Latin practice as the norm, if not the goal. To them the only proper posture of respect at the anaphora is kneeling, which I sadly believe no amount of education can undo.

I believe we should respect the decision of the Bishops in this matter. However, I am surprised that kneeling is the official policy. It was Metropolitan Judson who mandated that we stand from Pascha till Pentecost. I wonder if the instruction was only for your home parish where this issue was causing such strife.

In Christ,
Lance

Dear friends,

Father Pyo read the letter from the Metropolitan at the end of his homily a couple of weeks ago. The Metropolitan clearly instructed us that kneeling is the official policy of the Archeparchy of Pittsburgh, and that standing is no longer permitted in our parish.

Father Pyo, valiant man that he is, stated that he will be obedient to the Metropolitan - but he will not let this issue drop just like that. He plans on raising this issue publicly at the next eparchial priest's conference.

For the record, Father Pyo did not mandate standing - he just allowed it as an option. That is what caused the huge fuss! 98% of the parish decided to stand, and rather liked the change. But now standing is now longer an option. You should have seen the sight after the letter was read. The Liturgy continued as usual, but almost no one remembered when to kneel. Everyone had gotten so used to standing.

I cannot post the text of the letter, because only Father Pyo has a copy of it.

God bless,
Anthony

Dan,

Congratulations!!!

I have to say that you are a huge bright spot in the Church, and I hope to work with you to breathe some new life into it.

Things look a little glummer for me out here because of 1) the huge parish fiasco 2) my best friend going Roman 3) parishes emptying due to the large unemployment rate in Western PA. I'm so glad to hear that things are going better further West.

Anthony

SLAVA ISUSU CHRISTU!
SLAVA NA VIKI BOHU!

I was wondering if your parish would like to swap us for our Irish Bi-ritual priest who still doesn't have a clue?? How can we sweeten the deal?? I know that he doesn't celebrate St.Basil's Liturgy so they won't be kneeling that long anymore.

Can you imagine, the Feast of St.Basil and you use St.John Chrysostom's Liturgy.....

How 'bout if we throw in some Irish Sweepstakes tickets too??? A dozen pysanky maybe???

mark

"I have been to Russian (OCA), Carpatho-Russian, Greek and Antiochian Orthodox Churches and the Antiochians were the only ones who didn't kneel. However, I don't think anyone would accuse the others of being Latinizied."

Oh, I think it is fair to characterize that practice among the Orthodox as an example of latinization -- at least here in the parishes in America. Together with pews, choir singing, etc. -- all things Orthodoxy learned from the Latin West.

Brendan

Dear Anthony,

There must be more to this issue than what has been made public. It seems odd that the Metropolitan would reject the restoration of a more authentic Byzantine discipline when last year Bishop George of the Eparchy of Van Nuys directed that standing is the norm for that eparchy. The logical and common sense approach would have been for him to acknowledge the original custom of standing, the latinization of kneeling and then granting liberty to each to do as they felt called.

Since this issue has now been debated in a public forum and the Metropolitan's letter is also now public (since it was read from the pulpit) it should be possible to provide a more comprehensive summary along with a copy of the text of the Metropolitan's directive.

Prayers,
Moose

Moose,

You write:

"It seems odd that the Metropolitan would reject the restoration of a more authentic Byzantine discipline..."

It seemed very odd to me as well. I spoke at length with Father Pyo about this, and he said that the Metropolitan was sympathetic with his position, but as it stands the official directives for the Archeparchy of Pittsburgh requires kneeling. When pressed to do so by the angry 2%, the Metropolitan found it necessary to support the Acheparchial directives, and hence require kneeling on Sundays.

Father Pyo also said that the Metropolitan is not particularly fond of kneeling on Sundays, and would not actively oppose a change in the directives. Hence, Father Pyo plans to raise this issue in February at the priest's conference, and hopes to get the official directives changed so that standing will at least be an option. Let's pray that his effort is successful.

In the meantime, everyone must confirm with the official directives and kneel on Sundays, with the excepion of Easter season of course.

God bless,
Anthony

Anthony,

>>but as it stands the official directives for the Archeparchy of Pittsburgh requires kneeling.<<

I am quite surprised that a past hierarch actually wrote the latinization of kneeling into official directives. Most of the latinizations just happened. I wonder if the Metropolitan takes equal action with those parishes who still celebrate the Stations of the Cross during the Great Fast, the celebration of the Divine Liturgy on weekdays (which are aliturgical) or for those priests who refuse to celebrate the Presanctified Liturgy or give infant communion. With all due respect to the Metropoltian, this seems like a very Latin, legalistic approach to the issue rather than a pastoral one. My hope and prayer is that our Byzantine renewal is one of spirituality and liturgy and not one of laws and externals.


>>In the meantime, everyone must confirm with the official directives and kneel on Sundays, with the exception of Easter season of course.<<

Since every Sunday is a little Pascha can one conclude that this loophole is big enough to allow standing?

I join with you in prayer that our Byzantine renewal takes another step forward by allowing liberty in this matter for all those who wish to follow the Byzantine discipline of standing, rather than kneeling.

>>>Since every Sunday is a little Pascha can one conclude that this loophole is big enough to allow standing?<<<

I am surprised that we would find ourselves stooping to the latinization of looking for legal loopholes. The fact is, there are canons which pertain to our behavior on Sundays, and as a rule, we should follow those ecumenical canons when there is a deviation between them and the directives of the local Church. Moreover, the Byzantine Tradition is not the Latin Tradition, and while the Latins may place a premium on uniformity of posture in worship, the Byzantine Tradition never has (hence the repeated injunctions to stand, and the fact that one may find people kneeling in various Orthodox jurisdictions, or even, in the case of some more pious Russians, prostrating during the Epiklesis).

What I am saying, Anthony, is that you brought this upon yourself by trying to get people to approve of what you were doing. Why would you even care? You want to stand, stand. What are they going to do? Excommunicate you? Burn you?

Do what you feel is right, and forget about everyone else. They certainly don't care what you think. Be a witness to the authenticity of the Byzantine Tradition, and eventually the rest will catch up.

After the royal reaming our hierarchs received in Boston in November 1999 for their dilatory approach to liturgical renewal, I can't see these official directives having much teeth. So ignore them, in good Byzantine fashion, and let the chips fly.

I don't make a big deal out of the people who are kneeling in my parish. Most do so out of habit, and because the kneelers are comfortable. I notice that when the kneeling people have to worship in temples without kneelers, standing suits them just fine.

I totally agree with this advice. While it is easy to stand at Annunciation Church because everyone stands I see no reason why we all can't stand if we choose. Father Loya often emphasises our freedom of worship. At that was the attitude I took when visiting Livonia. Out of over 100 people I was the only one who stood.

"What I am saying, Anthony, is that you brought this upon yourself by trying to get people to approve of what you were doing. Why would you even care? You want to stand, stand. What are they going to do? Excommunicate you? Burn you?"

Dan Lauffer

Not that I support kneeling on Sundays, but it would seem to be a rather salient fact that the Metropolitan has spoken, giving clear direction, at least for the present time.

As Fr. Pyo prepares to go through the appropriate channels, it might lend prayers for his success a little extra "oomph" to swallow pride and practice the virtue of obedience. Before anybody decides that a call to obedience is a Latinization, check out what the Desert Fathers had to say about it.

Cheers from a slightly different but quite similar trench,


Sharon


Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor & sinner
sharon@cmhc.com

Stuart,

Well, the Metropolitan has instructed us that we must kneel. If I were to stand, I would be disobeying my bishop. I have a theological problem with doing so, unless I have a super COMPELLING reason. I don't think that this quite reaches such a serious level. But I do see it as being symptomatic of a larger problem in the Byzantine Church.

Likewise, everyone else in the parish has returned to kneeling. They have done so out of obedience to the Metropolitan.

Also, I don't think that we brought this on ourselves. I, and others, were standing (at times) before Father Pyo made it an option. I took some heat from a few of the babas, so I often ended up kneeling with everyone else. I didn't feel that it was worth scandalizing these women. When Father Pyo made standing an option, almost everyone took advantage of it. We didn't seek approval from anyone, and those who wanted to kneel could kneel. But it was the kneeling folks who involved the Metropolitan in all of this, with their barrage of angry letters and phone calls. They couldn't TOLERATE people standing during Sunday liturgy.

Now that the Archbishop has told us what to do, I must in good conscience remain obedient - even though it deeply saddens me.
What would you do in this situation?

God bless,
Anthony

Anthony



[This message has been edited by Dragani (edited 01-09-2001).]

>>I am surprised that we would find ourselves stooping to the latinization of looking for legal loopholes. <<

Twas a joke. I guess I should have made sure to use a smiley.


>>What I am saying, Anthony, is that you brought this upon yourself by trying to get people to approve of what you were doing. Why would you even care? You want to stand, stand. What are they going to do? Excommunicate you? Burn you?<<

Anthony will speak for himself but it appears to this moose that he was simply following the invitation of his pastor to stand if he wanted to, since it is the Byzantine custom.

In the Archeparchy of Pittsburgh they no longer excommunicate or burn people. The 21st century penalty is the force feeding of grocery store brand, extra fat kielbasi.

Moose,

In the Archeparchy of Pittsburgh, the only people who are routinely excommunicated are infants and small children. Thank God that's no longer true everywhere, but universal change will not come quickly - or at least not quickly enough.

I'm grateful my kids fall under Parma practices.

Sharon

Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor & sinner
sharon@cmhc.com

Dear Dragani,

I commend you for your act of obedience. However, since the decision of the Metropolitan is against the ancient canons of the Eastern Church, and against the spirit of the renewal of the authentic eastern tradition in Liturgy, I do not think it is the last word.

When a former bishop of Pittsburgh decreed and tried to enforce Latinizations, he was censured by Rome.

Rome has made its direction clear. I wonder if they are aware of the Metropolitan's decision? Should they be?

Christian

Glory to Jesus Christ! Glory forever!

Anthony,

I am so sorry to read about the problems of your parish. I can see that this is really taking a toll on you.

I too commend your humility. I think that you are using good judgement in following your metropolitan. I will keep you and your parish in my prayers.

Dragani:

I have been told by clergy with some direct knowledge of the situation that this "letter" is only meant for that particular parish and to quell problems amongst the congregation. Right or wrong decision...don't know.

Curious as to whether the split between the kneelers and the non-kneelers is along generational lines, with the "younger" generation actually seeking to reinstitute older tradition. I've noticed this to various degrees in a few other parishes.

But as one priest said: If you don't build them, they won't kneel.

My prayers for your parish community.

>>>Well, the Metropolitan has instructed us that we must kneel. If I were to stand, I would be disobeying my
bishop. I have a theological problem with doing so, unless I have a super COMPELLING reason. I don't
think that this quite reaches such a serious level. But I do see it as being symptomatic of a larger
problem in the Byzantine Church.<<<<

Interesting. I was at our parish in Williamsburg last week, for a pontifical liturgy celebrated by Bishop Andrew. Nobody knelt. But then, there were no kneelers. Father Pyo should simply remove the kneelers, since it is my imperical observation that people only kneel when kneelers are provided. People who normally kneel at Epiphany were at the liturgy in Williamsburg, and they were standing with the rest of us.

So I say, if people want to kneel because it is a penitential posture, then by all means they should be allowed to kneel. But they should be willing to suffer for their conviction. Just get a screwdriver, pull out the retaining pins, remove the kneelers, and send them off to a deserving Latin parish somewhere. Then we would see who is REALLY devoted to kneeling on Sundays, and who just wants to be different from "Thoseorthodox".

But if I were you, I would still stand. A matter of conscience. You might want to send a note to Metropolitan Judson reminding him of the little lecture he got from Cardinal Silvestrini in Boston, concerning the pace of liturgical renewal in America.

[This message has been edited by StuartK (edited 01-18-2001).]

Rick,

The split was largely among generational lines. Most of the younger people supported standed. However, several of the older people also strongly supported standing. It was only a tiny handful who angrily demanded that everyone kneels.

I appreciate your prayers greatly.

Stuart,

You have said that in the year 2001 new liturgical guidelines would be implemented in the Archeparchy of Pittsburgh. Is this still going to happen? If so, apparently there are no plans to implement standing during the liturgy.

Anthony

For those that read my previous post, I gladly retract what I said earlier. Now, having read the pre-history in other folders, I realize that this is much more than just a simple case of kneeling babas. I didn't realize that there was the issue of the filioque, and that they were petitioning to get rid of the pastor! That, of course, is an absolute and profound outrage, and in my opinion, they deserved a loving, but firm fatherly rebuke from their bishop. It's unfortunate that he appears to have merely affirmed them in their ignorance and intransigence.

I apologize to Anthony for being too quick to judge the situation without all the details.

Peace and all good things,

Gordo, sfo

[This message has been edited by CaelumJR (edited 01-22-2001).]