I can see that kneeling, like first communion, is one of those things which really defines where one stands as a Byzantine Catholic.



To respons to each commen in turn:



1. Pews were introduced nto the Roman Church in the Counter-Reformation ear, as a respknse to the Protestants. protestants have them because the looong sermon is the centerpiece of their services, and who wants to stand through all that? The Romans put theirs in, with the kneelers, as a resction; hence it is something of an innovation. Kneeling in the Roman Church is apparently one of those customs that just grew over time, but if you are going to kneel, do so on a hard, stone floor, not on a plush kneeler--that's penitential (I have tried it).



Many Orthodox Churches have pews either because, when their immigrant founders came to this country they wanted to assimilate (hence imitated the Protestants), or because the building wasn't designed as an Orthodox Church in the first place. This is especially ture of many newer parishes: removing the pews costs money that they don't have.



2. Kneeling may or may not be a posture of adoration. The witness of the Byzantine rite, as universally practiced in the Orthodox Church, is to stand, though of course Byzantine worshio is somewhat free-form, and people can do pretty much what they want except at certain times in the Liturgy. With pews, the people are more or less locked into place, and a barrier is created between them and the clergy. Until one has worshipped in a church without pews, one hasn't really gotten the feel of a Byzantine liturgy.



3. Doulos has given a very good summary of when and where kneeling is allowed. Note, though, that there are very few places where kneeling is mandated. Yet I have been in Byzantine parishes (Ruthenian and Ukrainian) where if you don't kneel you are ostracized. And when you ask why, you are told "Because you have to kneel", and don't bother me with this suuff about rubrics and Tradition.



4. regarding Rich's comments about what the true Carpatho-Rusyn and Ukrainian Tradition is, I refer him to the 1629 Liturgicon of St. Peter Moghila, which was recently reprinted by Eastern Christian Publications. Being an authentic representationof the pre-Nikonian practices of the Southeastern Slavic Churches, this ought to serve. And the rubrics call for the people to stand.



I assume that when (if ever) the Metropolia gets around to issueing its revised text of Chrysostom and Basil, which are based on the Canton recencions, that everyone will have pew books that say "stand". But, my experience has shown that, at the moment of the Sviat, Sviat, Sviat!, the people will be down on their knees (half of them, anyway), as though they had been hit on the head with a hammer. Old habits die hard.

I've worshipped in both Eastern Catholic and Orthodox (and Oriental Orthodox) chapels and churches...some had pews with kneelers...some did not. The Orthodox mission I attend now we all stand (there's only a handful of folding chairs).

I really have no problem with the type of chapel that gets rid of all the pews except when it comes to the aspect of how it impacts visitors. I know for my wife it has been a major issue and she is just (after a year now) getting used to the idea. I'm not real sure it's so important to Orthodox worship to demand no pews.

I realize that it's the work of the Church to be radical and transform society...but there's also the principle of "becoming all things to all people."

In our zeal to be purist in Orthodox worship will we go also demand (and many places do this already but not all) women with head coverings? How about men and women separated (remember the Theotokos' side of the church)?

As for me I stand nearly the whole Liturgy. But, I'm not sold it's *the* only way.

In Christ,

Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

Lemme jump in...

My parish (Ruthenian, Eparchy of Parma) has pews, no kneelers. Most stand, some stand bowed, Vatican II refugees drop to their knees like pole-axed steer. God bless 'em.

My own preference on the matter of pews was expressed last year in the immortal words of His Grace Bishop Kallistos Ware, who said "Take them out and BURN them." A new phrase was coined at the NAPM conference - I've got the (very basic) artwork done for mini-posters, and am hoping to scrape up the pennies for a small run of t-shirts. A sad-eyed person clad in old-fashioned prison garb sits dejectedly in a pew, with a ball & chain around his leg. All this in the universal diagonally slashed red circle. The caption reads, "Friends don't make friends pray in pews."

I've got a quasi-related question, though - recently I was at a weekday Divine Liturgy. I was in the back of the church (no pews there!) along with some like-minded others... At the Consecration, I opened my eyes at one point, and noticed that the Ukrainian Catholic priest (not known as a latinizer) beside me was prostrate. At a gut level, it seemed absolutely appropriate to me. I'm just wondering - according to tradition, rubrics, or whatever you'd like to cite, is it appropriate? To a particular Tradition? Is it restricted to those in Orders?

Just wondering...


Cheers,

Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor & sinner
sharon@cmhc.com

Didn't the First Ecumenical Council of Nicea (325) explicitly condemn kneeling on Sundays? Why is this not good enough for us, following as we do the traditions of the Ecumenical Councils?

I personally agree with Stuart that the experience of worshipping in a pewless environment is fundamentally different. The entire worship space takes on a free-ness, a quality of space, that is really incomparable, and works so well together with the forms of liturgical worship and popular piety that are proper to the Byzantine rite.

At the same time, however, there are some practical considerations. There are some folks at both ends of the age scale that need seating. In a larger parish, or a parish with a lot of young families, this becomes more of an issue, I think. In our parish we have fold-up chairs so that we can remove the chairs for certain services at certain points of the year (most notably for the weekday lenten services, or for kneeling vespers of Pentecost). It is a compromise solution made possible by the lack of permanent pews. If you happen to inherit pews, there is nothing you can do short of removing them, which can be prohibitively expensive for some parishes. In my personal opinion, however, one ought not build new Eastern Churches with pews in them ... at a minimum it makes the prostrations that are customary during Great Lent almost impossible to perform.

How do people feel about the standing and sitting? In the Eastern parish where I worship (Melkite) most people stand for everything other than the chanting of the Epistle and the Sermon. I have been to other Eastern parishes (Catholic and Orthodox) where everyone sits down during the Antiphons, for example, or during certain litanies. This strikes me as a bigger issue than the kneeling, actually. For while kneeling is a legitimate form of piety that is probably proper to the Latin rite, sitting down during the divine services seems to be a clear protestantization that ought to be avoided -- not for individuals who may need to sit, of course, but for the "en masse" sitting practiced in some places. I've even been to Orthodox Churches where bells are jingled so that everyone knows when to sit and stand(!). What do you think -- is "directed" sitting down appropriate for our divine services?

Orientale

[This message has been edited by orientale (edited 08-23-1999).]

Wow. We all do things differently. Greeks stand for everything, but sit during litanies (and the sermon twice over in Greek and English. But prostrate themselves during the epiclesis. And the Russians stand for everything (and they do EVERYTHING!), except for when they go outside for a smoke.

Pews, no pews; it's all a matter of what you've got or bought from the Protestants.

I don't think that there is any need for uniformity. The general rule of standing for public worship unless directed otherwise by the Typicon is what rules. But what a parish does is up to the people. So I don't think we have to demand uniformity of God's people. I'm just grateful that the people are present for worship.

Dear Servant of God, Dr. John

Slava Isusu Christu !

I agree with you. Pews or no pews, so what! I read somewhere a while back that in a Catholic parish in some remote African tribal community that the women attend Mass bare breasted. Again I say, so what! It's probably their custom and tradition to dress (or not to dress) this way.

Joe Prokopchak
the archsinner

Stuart,

You said >Kneeling is a penitential act, reserved for penitential occasions, such as during Lent, and during the kneeling prayers at Pentecost Vespers. The proper reverence for Byzantine Christians is not the genuflection, but the metania, and thus at the consecration, we bow, but do not kneel.

At the Presanctified Liturgy, we kneel for the Great Entrance (or offertory procession). I don't think this is due to 'penitential' reasons but for the recognition that the gifts are already consecrated. The old babas years ago use to kneel for entrance of gifts out of protest during St. Chrysostom liturgy during Lent when the old priest refused to do Presanctified. He also did Stations afterwards.

Your last statement seems to suggest we should bow or metania when the gifts are brougth forth - but we don't. The same goes for Pentecost - hardly a Penitential Feast. We kneel for prayers of Pentecost not because of Lent - for that is already long gone by then!

Elias

Re: Pews

The current issue of DOXA, a monastic journal published by an OCA monastery in New Mexico recently had a piece on (against) pews. The basis jist was that "Liturgy" is the work of the people and pews make worship less an act of work than a form of entertainment. I know one can fall asleep standing up, by I also know it's a lot easier to nod out sitting down, particularly during a slow homily!) The author also had a list of "what-if's" to compare the absurdity of sitting during Liturgy, such as what would you think of a team of surgeons who insisted on pews in the operating room!! etc. Well, it was entertaining, and I do think pews do change the nature of Orthodox worship (Body and soul) into a less free, less physical experience (ie; how do you make prostrations during Great Lent?)

In Christ,
John

I understand the argumentation against pews. However, I've seen first-time visitors to our churches leave mid-service. It was obvious they could not find a "comfort zone." I think in our zeal to "purify" our services we're forgetting the culture here in America. What about St Paul's words about "becoming all things to all people"?

If the tradition of standing (and therefore no pews)is sacrosant, then why is the tradition of segregating men and women to separate sides of the nave not?

I think a compromise of some sort should be available to parishes. Just wily-nily yanking out pews seems too extreme to me. As I said in my earlier post my wife has had an extremely hard time adjusting to a parish with no pews. People should not be forced into this, IMHO.

Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

Glory to Jesus Christ ! I had some difficulty adjusting to worship without pews. I was raised as a Roman Catholic. All of the churches that I attended had pews. I was raised to associate reverence with kneeling. Even today, whenever I visit Roman churches I always kneel for the Canon. Of course, I always kneel at the altar rail to receive Our Lord. Kneeling has become normative for Roman spirituality. The Roman tradition is not bad. It is different. It is suited to Western culture. After I joined my present parish it was, at first, difficult for me to change. It was hard for me to associate reverence with standing. I knelt at the anaphora, to the horror of my fellow parishoners ! I learned not to do that again. Now, after the words of the institution, I cross myself and make a deep bow(poklony). Now, the traditional Orthodox manner of prayer has become natural to me. In fact, my private prayer life is better, deeper. Whenever I pray I want to stand. I face the East, I face my ikons of Christ and the Theotokos. I even have a small diptych of Christ the Teacher and the of the Most Holy Theotokos. I can carry Our Saviour and His Mother with me whenever I travel. And I can have an ikon corner whenver I feel the need. I also carry chotki or prayer beads whenever I leave my home. I hope that some of this will prove helpful.

Dear Friends,
Christ is among us!
Well I guess that I have to enter into this "kneeling" debate, and give my opinion.
It is clear that the First Ecumenical Council forbids kneeling for all prayers public and private on Sunday and during the Holy Paschaltide, until the Kneeling Vespers of Pentecost. Those who kneel on Sunday do not understand the real meaning of Pascha, Sunday or the Divine Liturgy. The principal meanings of "adoring the Eucharist" in BYzantine Christianity is to receive it worthily. In this tradition kneeling or more properly a prostration is a sign of repentance. One week days and even Saturday, one is free to pray with that posture, both publicly and privately. (Except during Paschaltide, of course.) For example, in some of the Byzantine Churches, even the priest kneels for the epiclesis and then follows with a full prostration. But again this is not proper on Sundays or during Paschaltide.

Continuing my previous reply.
I serve two parishes, one with a newer building without stationary pews and no kneelers, the other 70 years old with both kneelers and pews. At the one church no one kneels on Sunday or for weekday services except to make prostrations during the Great Fast. When we build a permanent Church, we plan to keep our movable seating and no kneelers. This is what is TRADITIONAL AND PROPER to the Byzantine Church. And even though no seating is the ideal. I have accepted that some seating is needed to care for the needs of the elderly and young families. It has worked at our church and it prospers.
At the older parish, even after six years of consistant instruction, about one third refuse to accept the real Byzantine Tradition. A small number or "Roman traditionalist refugees" but the rest are just stubborn "know-it-all's". The ironic thing is that it this parish's case, not one of our "kneelers" have sucessfully shared Byzantine Christianity with their children. Their children attend Roman or Protestant Churches, and frequently no churches at all. I am not sure of any connection, but my experience has shown that Latinized parishes, clergy and parents do not succeed in keeping most of their children in the Byzantine Catholic Church. Perhaps that is something for those "Latinizers" on this and other sites to seriously think about. Why drive by the local Roman Church, to a Byzantine Parish, if we are all the same any way? My experience is that their children turn into the nearest driveway or just stay home confused.
Peace in our Living Lord,
The priest Bryan.