Hi, all,

I'm an RC who is trying to learn as much about BC and all that it has to offer. The other day I bought a biography on a Russian Orthodox Elder (Netkary). I realize he is not Catholic per se, but, may I presume that the attitudes, devotions, etc. are pretty well representative of Eastern Christianity? (I am getting the impression as I am trying to learn that essentially the only difference between Catholic and Orthodox is whether or not to follow the Pope. I know there's the whole "Filioque" issue, but that stems more from the leadership thing, doesn't it? Someone let me know if I'm wrong:-)

Jodi

Jodi, Glory to Jesus Christ ! Welcome to the Byzantine Catholic Churches, Jodi. I would think that readings from that Optina Elders series would be difficult for a beginner. I will give you a few suggestions. I, also, have had to make, and I am still making the transition from Roman Catholicism to Byzantine Catholicism. Many others in this Forum have done the same. Unlike Roman Catholicism of the recent centuries, Byzantine private prayer follows the same patterns used in liturgical worship (corporate prayer in church). In church we pray facing Our Lord, Jesus Christ and his mother the most holy Theotokos. We are surrounded by and join in the prayers of the angels and the saints. I refer, of course, to the ikons in your church. We burn candles or oil lamps before Our Saviour, his mother, and the saints. The texts we use are those consecrated by centuries long use by the Church and by the Fathers. During the Divine Liturgy we stand and face the East. We do not kneel on Sundays. We frequently make the sign of the cross: when the Holy Trinity is invoked; at moments of great intesity or importance. We sometimes accompany our sign of the cross with bow(metany or poklony) or even a full prostration. I suggest you set up an ikon corner in your home. Try to pray there using some or all of the Morning and Evening prayers each day. Eventually, you will memorize the begining and closing prayers, as they are used at the start and close of any service. I also suggest that you obtain an Orthodox Manual of Prayer or the Byzantine Book of Prayer. You can probably obtain these books and items needed for an icon corner from your parish gift shop. You will also want to obtain regular spiritual direction from a spiritual father. Traditionally, spiritual fathers have been monks. In America we do not have enough monks to provide spiritual direction for all of the Eastern Catholics. Someone in your parish, your parish priest or deacon, will probably suffice in the beginning. I will suggest the following reading materials: Nicholas Zernov, The Church of the Eastern Christians; Frederica Mathewes-Green, Facing East; Kallistos Ware, The Orthodox Church; Athanasius Pekar, You Shall Be Witnesses unto Me; and Walter Ciszek, He Leadeth Me. I hope that some of this is helpful.

GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST!
GLORY TO HIM FOREVER!

Hi Jodi

You want to start out with a book called THE DOMESTIC CHURCH. It's a good book that gives a general over all view of Eastern Christians, their beliefs and some of the customs.

There are many branches of the Eastern Church and not all follow the same traditions.

I am a Ruthenian Byzantine Rite Catholic, born and bred. We use Old Church Slavonic as our Liturgical language on special Holy Days. We kneel during Divine Liturgy during the Consecration, except from Easter until Pentecost, when we stand to show our joy in the Resurrection.

We do fast on Fridays, although this is voluntary, except during Fasting periods. We do not fast on Sundays, as do some of the Eastern Rite Christians do who are from the Middle Eastern countries.

There are many different customs and traditions and it will be confusing for you. Try to read about the spiritual side and tackle the traditions later.

If you have any questions, please feel free to contact me and I will try to answer as best I can.

The least servant of the servants of God
Mark


[This message has been edited by Medved (edited 08-19-1999).]

>>>I am a Ruthenian Byzantine Rite Catholic, born and bred. We use Old

Church Slavonic as our Liturgical language on special Holy Days. We

kneel during Divine Liturgy during the Consecration, except from Easter

until Pentecost, when we stand to show our joy in the Resurrection.



<<<



You must belong to an older parish, for the revised rubrics of the Liturgy are fully consistent with Orthodox practice; i.e., all prayer is to be deliered standing, for in accordance with Canon 10 of the Council of Nicaea, on Sundays we srand in the presence of the Risen Lord, because every Sunday is a celebration of the Resurrection.. Kneeling is for penitential prayer, as, e.g., when we kneel at Pentecost, or prostrate during Lent.

Jodi,

I would recommend "The Orthodox Way" by Kallistos Ware -- it focuses on the spiritual aspects of Eastern Christianity, and not on the often polemically-charged issues that distinguish "catholic" from "orthodox".

For a good understanding of Eastern Catholic History, there is a book called "To the Ends of the Earth: Aspects of Eastern Catholic Church History" published by the Byzantine-Ruthenian Metropolia. It explains how we got to where we are today.

Orientale

Jodi et al-
I would concur with beginning with something like Ware's "The Orthodox Church". The Optina Elders are wonderful saints of 19th Cent. Russia but are oftimes misunderstood by many (as is the whole idea of eldership within Orthodox spirituality). I have a great love and devotion for St. Nectary, who was one of the last elders and who experienced the closing of Optina Monastery by the Bolsheviks. Much of his writing (I have the book you have) are both apocalyptic and "foolish" (as in "fools for Christ") - and although these are some of the gifts which this saint brings for us, we may not be ready or at the point where they will teach us what we need to know.
I am however a believer :-) that the books we come across and read are "meant" for us and can be instruments for our salvation. I hope that you take the advice of others to build a "foundation" of understanding the Orthodox Church (or Byzantine Church if that is your quest).
One of my favorite quotes of the Elder Nectary is "I have lit the lamp, now tend to the wick yourselves" - if you begin to light a lamp, as is customary in Eastern prayer, you will understand some of what this means!

In Christ,
John

If we can back to the sidebar about kneeling vs. standing...

The Orthodox don't appear to have a consistent practice, either. I attend a Greek Orthodox parish where we kneel for the epiklesis, except for Pascha through Pentecost. However, we always stood at the Antiochian cathedral I attended previously. Go figure...

Peter

Thank you all for your replies...getting my hands on these books will be the next challenge;-)

Jodi

GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST!
GLORY TO HIM FOREVER!

Hi Jodi

The book I mentioned, THE DOMESTIC CHURCH, can be obtained from the IKON AND BOOK SERVICE in Washington, DC. They do have a website: http://www.iconbook.org/

Or you can phone 1-800-ASK-IKON. They can give you more info and send you a catalog. You may also want to look at BYZANTINE BOOK OF PRAYER, which is published by the Byzantine Seminary Press. It is a good book for everyday prayer.

The least servant of the servants of God...
Mark

GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST!
GLORY TO HIM FOREVER!

Stuart:

I am a Byzantine Ruthenian Rite Catholic in union with the Holy See in Rome. I belong to a parish that paractices the customs and traditions brought to this country from our Mother church in what is today Slovakia and Ukraine. It has always been and still is the custom in our churches to kneel on Sundays and during other prayer times, unless during the Paska Season.

I do not know what the other Eastern ChristiansRites do in terms of kneeling. I know I have been to the Cathedral of St. Nicholas in Washington, DC., seat of His Beautitude Metropolitan Theodosius, and they kneel on the floor.

I have also not seen any change in the Rubrics of my diocese or from the Archbishop either.

The least servant of the servant of God
Mark

>>>I am a Byzantine Ruthenian Rite Catholic in union with the Holy See in

Rome. I belong to a parish that paractices the customs and traditions

brought to this country from our Mother church in what is today Slovakia

and Ukraine. <<<



I am a member of the Byzantine Catholic Metropolia of Pittsburgh, a sui juris Church in communion with Rome, and I attend a parish in the Washington, DC, area. No one denies that the custom of kneeling has insinuated itself into the worship of the Byzantine Catholic Church, nonetheless, this is not an integral part of our liturgical Tradition, but rather a latinization, an imitation of Roman practices that we picked up over the centuries in an attempt to "be real Catholics". The Second Vatican Council's Decree on the Oriental Churches recognized that is is proper for the Eastern Catholic Churches to recover the fullness of their liturgical, spiritual, and doctrinal patrimony, and the :iutrugical Instruction of 1996 amplifies that theme. If you attended the eparchial pilgrimage to the Shrine of the Immaculate Conception last year, you would have seen in the service book, at the beginning of the anaphora, the rubric "And the People remain standing". It is customary in Orthodox worship to stand, as the default posture, for we consider the Divine Liturgy to be a joyful occasion, a Holy Banquet, the Bridal Feast to which we are all invited. Kneeling is a penitential act, reserved for penitential occasions, such as during Lent, and during the kneeling prayers at Pentecost Vespers. The proper reverence for Byzantine Christians is not the genuflection, but the metania, and thus at the consecration, we bow, but do not kneel. That many of the older parishes continue to kneel I attribute to inertia: this is the way people were brought up, and this is what they do.



Since I live in the Washington area, and have been to St. Nicholas Cathedral, I must ask which particular Divine Liturgy you attended, since in the Russia Church (and I have been ro Russian Orthodox Churches in Europe as well as the US, nobody kneels at all durng ordinary Sunday worship, except for the Deacon, when he assists the priest at the proskomide during the Great Entrance.

>> "It is customary in Orthodox worship to stand, as the default
posture, for we consider the Divine Liturgy to be a joyful occasion, a Holy Banquet, the
Bridal Feast to which we are all invited." >>

Which begs the question: why even have pews, which are an issue in the Orthodox churches.
The Byzantine Rite Church I used to attend followed the Russian custom of 'No pews', as does of course the Russian Orthodox Church. It seems more a matter of "American Protestantism" rather than "Latinism" to have these things in our churches?

In Christ,
John

In reference to kneeling, is kneeling not also a posture of adoration?

Glory to Jesus Christ ! The kneeling question is a good one. In the Orthodox world kneeling is usually restricted on Sundays to the following: veneration of Christ's Burial Shroud on Holy Saturday Vespers and Divine Liturgy and Pascha Matins and veneration of icons or relics of the Cross on Sept 14, 3rd Sunday of Lent and August 1st. In the Ukrainian and Ruthenian (Slovak, Hungarian, and Croatian) traditons the bridal couple may kneel for the Mystery of Crowning even if celebrated on a Sunday. People may kneel during weekday Divine Liturgy outside of the period between Pascha and Pentecost. Individuals often kneel during the anaphora and during the Our Father. Nearly everyone kneels at the Liturgy of the Presanctified during Lent. These are the general rules of the Orthodox world. Practice often varies. I have atteded Greek Orthodox, Ukrainian Catholic and Orthodox, and Ruthenian Divine Liturgies where the congregation knelt for the "transubstantiation" and or the epiclesis. Very few Byzantine churches Catholic and Orthodox in Southern are without pews with kneelers. I am very blessed to attend a Catholic Church where traditional Eastern traditions flourish.

Stuart said:

>I am a member of the Byzantine Catholic Metropolia of Pittsburgh, a sui juris Church in communion with Rome, and I attend a parish in the Washington, DC, area. No one denies that the custom of kneeling has insinuated itself into the worship of the Byzantine Catholic Church, nonetheless, this is not an integral part of our liturgical Tradition, but rather a latinization, an imitation of Roman practices that we picked up over the centuries in an attempt to "be real Catholics". The Second Vatican Council's Decree on the Oriental Churches recognized that is is proper for the Eastern Catholic Churches to recover the fullness of their liturgical, spiritual, and doctrinal patrimony, and the liturgical Instruction of 1996 amplifies that theme.

-- Stuart, were you a member of the Ruthenian Church in 1596, or 1646? If not, how do you know that "the custom of kneeling has insinuated itself into the worship of the Byzantine Catholic Church" (which one? Ruthenian, I presume)?

Isn't it possible that it is an authentic custom of the Ruthenian Church (in or out of union with Rome) to kneel at various services, including the Divine Liturgy on weekdays outside the Paschal season?

Sure, it doesn't make much sense to kneel on Sundays or during Paschaltide (the [old] Canons forbid it), but where is it declared that kneeling at the Liturgy and other services on weekdays is inappropriate or wrong? The documents you allude to don't mention kneeling.

And from what I've seen, your parish's particular "interpretation" (or discarding) of said custom doesn't stop people from kneeling AFTER they receive Communion, which strikes me as the _last_ time one ought to be kneeling.

I can see that kneeling, like first communion, is one of those things which really defines where one stands as a Byzantine Catholic.



To respons to each commen in turn:



1. Pews were introduced nto the Roman Church in the Counter-Reformation ear, as a respknse to the Protestants. protestants have them because the looong sermon is the centerpiece of their services, and who wants to stand through all that? The Romans put theirs in, with the kneelers, as a resction; hence it is something of an innovation. Kneeling in the Roman Church is apparently one of those customs that just grew over time, but if you are going to kneel, do so on a hard, stone floor, not on a plush kneeler--that's penitential (I have tried it).



Many Orthodox Churches have pews either because, when their immigrant founders came to this country they wanted to assimilate (hence imitated the Protestants), or because the building wasn't designed as an Orthodox Church in the first place. This is especially ture of many newer parishes: removing the pews costs money that they don't have.



2. Kneeling may or may not be a posture of adoration. The witness of the Byzantine rite, as universally practiced in the Orthodox Church, is to stand, though of course Byzantine worshio is somewhat free-form, and people can do pretty much what they want except at certain times in the Liturgy. With pews, the people are more or less locked into place, and a barrier is created between them and the clergy. Until one has worshipped in a church without pews, one hasn't really gotten the feel of a Byzantine liturgy.



3. Doulos has given a very good summary of when and where kneeling is allowed. Note, though, that there are very few places where kneeling is mandated. Yet I have been in Byzantine parishes (Ruthenian and Ukrainian) where if you don't kneel you are ostracized. And when you ask why, you are told "Because you have to kneel", and don't bother me with this suuff about rubrics and Tradition.



4. regarding Rich's comments about what the true Carpatho-Rusyn and Ukrainian Tradition is, I refer him to the 1629 Liturgicon of St. Peter Moghila, which was recently reprinted by Eastern Christian Publications. Being an authentic representationof the pre-Nikonian practices of the Southeastern Slavic Churches, this ought to serve. And the rubrics call for the people to stand.



I assume that when (if ever) the Metropolia gets around to issueing its revised text of Chrysostom and Basil, which are based on the Canton recencions, that everyone will have pew books that say "stand". But, my experience has shown that, at the moment of the Sviat, Sviat, Sviat!, the people will be down on their knees (half of them, anyway), as though they had been hit on the head with a hammer. Old habits die hard.

I've worshipped in both Eastern Catholic and Orthodox (and Oriental Orthodox) chapels and churches...some had pews with kneelers...some did not. The Orthodox mission I attend now we all stand (there's only a handful of folding chairs).

I really have no problem with the type of chapel that gets rid of all the pews except when it comes to the aspect of how it impacts visitors. I know for my wife it has been a major issue and she is just (after a year now) getting used to the idea. I'm not real sure it's so important to Orthodox worship to demand no pews.

I realize that it's the work of the Church to be radical and transform society...but there's also the principle of "becoming all things to all people."

In our zeal to be purist in Orthodox worship will we go also demand (and many places do this already but not all) women with head coverings? How about men and women separated (remember the Theotokos' side of the church)?

As for me I stand nearly the whole Liturgy. But, I'm not sold it's *the* only way.

In Christ,

Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

Lemme jump in...

My parish (Ruthenian, Eparchy of Parma) has pews, no kneelers. Most stand, some stand bowed, Vatican II refugees drop to their knees like pole-axed steer. God bless 'em.

My own preference on the matter of pews was expressed last year in the immortal words of His Grace Bishop Kallistos Ware, who said "Take them out and BURN them." A new phrase was coined at the NAPM conference - I've got the (very basic) artwork done for mini-posters, and am hoping to scrape up the pennies for a small run of t-shirts. A sad-eyed person clad in old-fashioned prison garb sits dejectedly in a pew, with a ball & chain around his leg. All this in the universal diagonally slashed red circle. The caption reads, "Friends don't make friends pray in pews."

I've got a quasi-related question, though - recently I was at a weekday Divine Liturgy. I was in the back of the church (no pews there!) along with some like-minded others... At the Consecration, I opened my eyes at one point, and noticed that the Ukrainian Catholic priest (not known as a latinizer) beside me was prostrate. At a gut level, it seemed absolutely appropriate to me. I'm just wondering - according to tradition, rubrics, or whatever you'd like to cite, is it appropriate? To a particular Tradition? Is it restricted to those in Orders?

Just wondering...


Cheers,

Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor & sinner
sharon@cmhc.com

Didn't the First Ecumenical Council of Nicea (325) explicitly condemn kneeling on Sundays? Why is this not good enough for us, following as we do the traditions of the Ecumenical Councils?

I personally agree with Stuart that the experience of worshipping in a pewless environment is fundamentally different. The entire worship space takes on a free-ness, a quality of space, that is really incomparable, and works so well together with the forms of liturgical worship and popular piety that are proper to the Byzantine rite.

At the same time, however, there are some practical considerations. There are some folks at both ends of the age scale that need seating. In a larger parish, or a parish with a lot of young families, this becomes more of an issue, I think. In our parish we have fold-up chairs so that we can remove the chairs for certain services at certain points of the year (most notably for the weekday lenten services, or for kneeling vespers of Pentecost). It is a compromise solution made possible by the lack of permanent pews. If you happen to inherit pews, there is nothing you can do short of removing them, which can be prohibitively expensive for some parishes. In my personal opinion, however, one ought not build new Eastern Churches with pews in them ... at a minimum it makes the prostrations that are customary during Great Lent almost impossible to perform.

How do people feel about the standing and sitting? In the Eastern parish where I worship (Melkite) most people stand for everything other than the chanting of the Epistle and the Sermon. I have been to other Eastern parishes (Catholic and Orthodox) where everyone sits down during the Antiphons, for example, or during certain litanies. This strikes me as a bigger issue than the kneeling, actually. For while kneeling is a legitimate form of piety that is probably proper to the Latin rite, sitting down during the divine services seems to be a clear protestantization that ought to be avoided -- not for individuals who may need to sit, of course, but for the "en masse" sitting practiced in some places. I've even been to Orthodox Churches where bells are jingled so that everyone knows when to sit and stand(!). What do you think -- is "directed" sitting down appropriate for our divine services?

Orientale

[This message has been edited by orientale (edited 08-23-1999).]

Wow. We all do things differently. Greeks stand for everything, but sit during litanies (and the sermon twice over in Greek and English. But prostrate themselves during the epiclesis. And the Russians stand for everything (and they do EVERYTHING!), except for when they go outside for a smoke.

Pews, no pews; it's all a matter of what you've got or bought from the Protestants.

I don't think that there is any need for uniformity. The general rule of standing for public worship unless directed otherwise by the Typicon is what rules. But what a parish does is up to the people. So I don't think we have to demand uniformity of God's people. I'm just grateful that the people are present for worship.

Dear Servant of God, Dr. John

Slava Isusu Christu !

I agree with you. Pews or no pews, so what! I read somewhere a while back that in a Catholic parish in some remote African tribal community that the women attend Mass bare breasted. Again I say, so what! It's probably their custom and tradition to dress (or not to dress) this way.

Joe Prokopchak
the archsinner

Stuart,

You said >Kneeling is a penitential act, reserved for penitential occasions, such as during Lent, and during the kneeling prayers at Pentecost Vespers. The proper reverence for Byzantine Christians is not the genuflection, but the metania, and thus at the consecration, we bow, but do not kneel.

At the Presanctified Liturgy, we kneel for the Great Entrance (or offertory procession). I don't think this is due to 'penitential' reasons but for the recognition that the gifts are already consecrated. The old babas years ago use to kneel for entrance of gifts out of protest during St. Chrysostom liturgy during Lent when the old priest refused to do Presanctified. He also did Stations afterwards.

Your last statement seems to suggest we should bow or metania when the gifts are brougth forth - but we don't. The same goes for Pentecost - hardly a Penitential Feast. We kneel for prayers of Pentecost not because of Lent - for that is already long gone by then!

Elias

Re: Pews

The current issue of DOXA, a monastic journal published by an OCA monastery in New Mexico recently had a piece on (against) pews. The basis jist was that "Liturgy" is the work of the people and pews make worship less an act of work than a form of entertainment. I know one can fall asleep standing up, by I also know it's a lot easier to nod out sitting down, particularly during a slow homily!) The author also had a list of "what-if's" to compare the absurdity of sitting during Liturgy, such as what would you think of a team of surgeons who insisted on pews in the operating room!! etc. Well, it was entertaining, and I do think pews do change the nature of Orthodox worship (Body and soul) into a less free, less physical experience (ie; how do you make prostrations during Great Lent?)

In Christ,
John

I understand the argumentation against pews. However, I've seen first-time visitors to our churches leave mid-service. It was obvious they could not find a "comfort zone." I think in our zeal to "purify" our services we're forgetting the culture here in America. What about St Paul's words about "becoming all things to all people"?

If the tradition of standing (and therefore no pews)is sacrosant, then why is the tradition of segregating men and women to separate sides of the nave not?

I think a compromise of some sort should be available to parishes. Just wily-nily yanking out pews seems too extreme to me. As I said in my earlier post my wife has had an extremely hard time adjusting to a parish with no pews. People should not be forced into this, IMHO.

Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

Glory to Jesus Christ ! I had some difficulty adjusting to worship without pews. I was raised as a Roman Catholic. All of the churches that I attended had pews. I was raised to associate reverence with kneeling. Even today, whenever I visit Roman churches I always kneel for the Canon. Of course, I always kneel at the altar rail to receive Our Lord. Kneeling has become normative for Roman spirituality. The Roman tradition is not bad. It is different. It is suited to Western culture. After I joined my present parish it was, at first, difficult for me to change. It was hard for me to associate reverence with standing. I knelt at the anaphora, to the horror of my fellow parishoners ! I learned not to do that again. Now, after the words of the institution, I cross myself and make a deep bow(poklony). Now, the traditional Orthodox manner of prayer has become natural to me. In fact, my private prayer life is better, deeper. Whenever I pray I want to stand. I face the East, I face my ikons of Christ and the Theotokos. I even have a small diptych of Christ the Teacher and the of the Most Holy Theotokos. I can carry Our Saviour and His Mother with me whenever I travel. And I can have an ikon corner whenver I feel the need. I also carry chotki or prayer beads whenever I leave my home. I hope that some of this will prove helpful.

Dear Friends,
Christ is among us!
Well I guess that I have to enter into this "kneeling" debate, and give my opinion.
It is clear that the First Ecumenical Council forbids kneeling for all prayers public and private on Sunday and during the Holy Paschaltide, until the Kneeling Vespers of Pentecost. Those who kneel on Sunday do not understand the real meaning of Pascha, Sunday or the Divine Liturgy. The principal meanings of "adoring the Eucharist" in BYzantine Christianity is to receive it worthily. In this tradition kneeling or more properly a prostration is a sign of repentance. One week days and even Saturday, one is free to pray with that posture, both publicly and privately. (Except during Paschaltide, of course.) For example, in some of the Byzantine Churches, even the priest kneels for the epiclesis and then follows with a full prostration. But again this is not proper on Sundays or during Paschaltide.

Continuing my previous reply.
I serve two parishes, one with a newer building without stationary pews and no kneelers, the other 70 years old with both kneelers and pews. At the one church no one kneels on Sunday or for weekday services except to make prostrations during the Great Fast. When we build a permanent Church, we plan to keep our movable seating and no kneelers. This is what is TRADITIONAL AND PROPER to the Byzantine Church. And even though no seating is the ideal. I have accepted that some seating is needed to care for the needs of the elderly and young families. It has worked at our church and it prospers.
At the older parish, even after six years of consistant instruction, about one third refuse to accept the real Byzantine Tradition. A small number or "Roman traditionalist refugees" but the rest are just stubborn "know-it-all's". The ironic thing is that it this parish's case, not one of our "kneelers" have sucessfully shared Byzantine Christianity with their children. Their children attend Roman or Protestant Churches, and frequently no churches at all. I am not sure of any connection, but my experience has shown that Latinized parishes, clergy and parents do not succeed in keeping most of their children in the Byzantine Catholic Church. Perhaps that is something for those "Latinizers" on this and other sites to seriously think about. Why drive by the local Roman Church, to a Byzantine Parish, if we are all the same any way? My experience is that their children turn into the nearest driveway or just stay home confused.
Peace in our Living Lord,
The priest Bryan.