Okay, the movie was sheriff.

I need some advice. It has been rumored (my wife assures me it is a fact) that some charitable members of our parish have decided that they do not like our new priest and have started a petition against him. He is not Ruthenian (he's from India), he spent a lot of time with the Ukrainians (God Forbid! Alex, I hope I NEVER have to meet you!), and he has made some minor changes, which these parishioners have found objectionable.

It was said that these unhappy parishioners have decided to send this petition to Pittsburgh detailing their complaints and suggesting some action.

Well, our priest heard about this petition from someone who was asked to sign. Having been the first time he had heard these complaints, he called a meeting of the parish council, some of whom have allegedly signed this petition. So, our priest asked what about the issues that these parishioners had. Incredibly, everyone was aware of the petition, but not a single person had seen it.

One kind gentleman decided to explain to our priest some of the issues they had.

1. He moved the lectern from the side of the church to the center. "That's just not our tradition. The priest should stand behind a lectern in the corner."

2. "I've never seen a priest do the Presanctified Gifts the way you do. What, are you reading from a Ukrainian book or something?"

3. When he read the gospel on Easter Sunday, he read the gospel in "too many languages." He read it in nine (he knows a lot of languages) and he read it in Latin, which was okay, but he also read it in Ukrainian! God forbid! Horrible and ugly Ukrainian! So different from our perfect Rusyn Tongue.

I will admit that our priest is learning, but this is from a parishioner who has successfully maintained kneeling, the filioque, and other Latinisms. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!

At any rate, will Pittsburgh chuck this odd little "letter," or is this something we should address.

We (the parish council) told our priest to go on as if the petition doesn't exist and print a message in the bulletin saying that anyone who has issues should come to him or to a member of the Parish Council to discuss whatever problems they may have.

This is my first time through a civil war and I would prefer to remain OFF the casualty list.

What is wrong with people like this? You Eastern Catholics do not have a monopoly on them, I can assure you. A similar letter was written to the Dean by a prominent member of our Parish Board with complaints that our new Acting Rector (a newly-ordained priest) takes too long in doing the Services (actually, he does the Services the way they're *supposed* to be done!) and they aren't nice and short like when Father x..., our former rector of 44 years was here! The Dean told Father to go slow with any changes and that he had a furor in his own parish when he removed one pew which was never used!

OrthodoxEast

Dear Cizinec,

Why do you hope that you never HAVE to meet you?

Who would force you to meet me?

The next time your in town, I'll insist on seeing you then!

And there are as many Ukrainian typicons as there are priests. We had one from Ukraine the other day and he vested in the middle of the Church and took his time . . .

Perhaps that individual who is against your priest is wasted in your parish.

Perhaps he would better serve the Ruthenian Church in its vocations department?

Alex

Very well said Alex!

These complaints should carry no weight at all if they are attempts to restore authentic liturgical traditions.

The congregation is lucky to have such a priest. Even if he has difficulties he sounds very sincere in his efforts. If the petition is successful they could find themselves with Readers Services as there may be no replacement for him, and some other parish may benefit from their folly.

Hurray for the brave priest!

Send him to Illinois!

Michael

Unfortunately we went through something very like this about 15 years ago. It got very ugly, led to the dissolution of the parish council (which has never been restored) and the temporary dissolution of several other parish organizations. Our (then) bishop strongly supported our new and embattled pastor, as did many of us in the parish.

I have to say that "the great schism" did lasting harm. If you can defuse the situation before it gets out of hand, by all means, do so. Blessed are the peacemakers.


Sharon

I am very sorry to say that I now know the petition is real. My wife received a copy of the petition after it was written and sent. One of the primary complaints concerns the way our priest conducted the funeral of our daughter in October.

I have to say that when my wife found this out she was extremely upset, as am I.

If I were the priest, I would do some things differently. I would remove most of the pews, put an end to the filioque, and put more emphasis on our Eastern Traditions. Our priest, although he is still officially Latin, has done his best. No one else wanted to come down here, partially because of the situtation with some of the parishioners. There were some things at Marcella's funeral I wish could have been different. But our priest did his best, and he took care of us and prayed for and with us.

I am disappointed that the ones who have complained about our daughter's funeral are the ones who gave us the least solace. Most of them, and they are primarily from the choir, didn't even show up for the funeral. I feel betrayed and violated that they would use the death of my child to their own political ends. Now I know why no one showed us the petition and why it was kept from us.

They started the petition during Holy Week. Pray for these people. They are so lost in their own world that they would destroy our church, our priest, our parish, and even give no concern to my family.

Alex, I would be proud to be a Ukrainian. I hope you realise that I was being sarcastic, noting that they would prefer to be Latin than Byzantine-Ukrainian.

It sounds like what your priest is doing is more in line with the authentic tradition of the Church. The priest should always read and preach from the center of the solea. The center is a liturgically signficant position for the priest to take.

The practice on Easter from the Typikon is to read the Gospel in as many languages as possible, and if the priest is linguistically gifted, why not read more. There is no number limit on the number of Gospels. In fact the more languages, the more vivid the universality of the message of the Resurrection becomes before our eyes and ears.

It seems as if the "tradition" the way some in the parish imagines ("that's just not our tradition" as you quoted them) has more to do with a more Latinized recent history than really understanding the tradition. And if he does things a little more Eastern or Ukrainian, well, there's worse things.

I hope your priest will be strong and not allow himself to be chased away by those who want things "their way".

Christ is Risen!

My prayers are with you, and with the community, and with your new pastor. It is so hard to cope with change, and I hope that you will be able to help the community see that some of these changes might be positive. In any case, they do not sound like earth-shattering questions. Don't worry too much.

If I were a bishop who got a letter or a petition of any kind, there are two things I might do. If it is signed with a return address I would answer it. Then I would either put it in the parish file, or if I thought it might help the pastor, I might share some or all of it with him.

Parishes, families, communities of any kind, require a lot of work. It is very difficult, and there are always challenges, bright moments and disappointing failures. So much depends on a willingness to accept one another's weaknesses, forgive, and build on strengths.

Let us pray for all of our parishes and communities, and entrust them, one another, and all our life to Christ God!

Christ is Risen!

This only confirms that there is great sickness in the world. I feel sad for you and your wife for the trouble these folks made for you, especially during such troubling times as in the loss of one's child.

Eternal Memory!

Joe

It is truly sad that the funeral of your dear departed child (Vichnaja Pam'jat) would be something to be taken advantage of. May God grant you all peace, solace, and strength to carry on under these circumstances. Z'Bohom

Christ is Risen!

As one who is preparing for ordination, this is my biggest fear. I will go to a parish with all of this zeal, and this is what I will face.

A priest came to the seminary recently to give us a talk on parish leadership. This priest, although Latin, took a parish that was almost dead, and close to closing, and brought it back to life. He went slow and kept moving, he said it is hard to hit a moving target.

One of the things that he did that I thought was the right thing was to make no changes for six months. He listened to the people and where they were and what they wanted, and then he moved. He got them to think that the changes he wanted to make, all good and authentic ones, were mostly their ideas.

Good bit of information I thought.

Peter

Dear Cizinec,

I was being sarcastic as well - but situations like the one you describe drives me up the wall!

I remember Fr. Dzulynsky who served at St Volodymyr and Olha's Church in Chicago - he came from Toronto where I was an altar-server for him at the first Ukie Church in Toronto on Bathurst Street.

I remember watching idiot parishioners go up to him after Divine Liturgy to criticize his sermons, the way he turned about in front of the Altar and I recall the meekness with which he bore those crosses.

The people in Chicago greeted him and treated him as if he were a king by comparison.

The point you raise about the "anything but Ukie" thing is one I've come across.

I know Ukies can be short-sighted and mean-spirited.

But nothing like the Russians . . .

May God bless you and your family through the prayers of your heavenly patrons, including your dear daughter!

Alex

Your daughter and your family are in my prayers.How sad those people weren't there for you at such a sorrowful time in your life. We aren't having Liturgy this week because our priest is out of town. I wish those folks could stand in my community's shoes.I hope that Metropolitan Basil goes to Houston and puts those people in their place. BTW we have a former member living down there. When she and her family came back to visit she told me a disturbing story. She went to the Church for Liturgy and was told by some woman she wouldn't like it and she shouldn't come there .Her English is broken and she is from Guatamala. I think that had something to do with it. Her feelings were hurt that she was discouraged from attending there.

Nicky's Baba

Nicky's Baba,

That, indeed, was another sick moment in our church. Now what did our Lord say about shaking sand from one's sandals? It is quite obvious that nothing, absolutely nothing, about God's love or teaching sank in with some of these folks after all those years.

I pray for Cizinec's daughter and for him and his wife. I pray for Fr. Julian. I pray for all the others of the Houston parish who had/have to put up with such corrupt behavior. I hope it ends soon. If this is so typical of the people of this parish, then I hope that Archbishop Basil pays them a visit they'll never forget. Such miserable and cowardly scoundrals. Shame on them!

Joe

Nicky,

I'm not surprised. A few "Ruthenians" in our parish don't want anyone to come who isn't East-Slovak Ruthenian. We found out from a Muslim who visited our parish that some of our parishioners were saying that Fr. Julian wasn't "one of our kind."

I wonder what I am? They tolerate me because my wife is . . . but what the heck difference does that make. I'm not even going to dignify it with a discussion.

Some of these guys would throw Sts. Cyril and Methodius out for not being Ruthenians. Heck, they don't even like Ukrainians!

I would love a visit from the metropolitan! I wonder if we would like a pair of cowboy boots with really pointy toes?

I believe that is in the Trebnik as the "Vesting of the Bishop in Sombrero, Pancho, Boots, Spurs and Holster"

Change is always difficult.

In the parish where my family now worships, we had a priest assigned about sixteen years ago who came with the notion that he would do all the Liturgical services as they were intended to be: no short cuts, no hurry, reverently, etc.

We had been used to the short Liturgy: 20 minutes. We had had a folk Liturgy: bad music, stretched out--a real penance. And everything in between.

But everyone got something that he thought he wanted.

Needless to say, we had an exodus of about 100 families to other places where poor Liturgy was available and one could "get it over with."

Today this parish has a 70 voice choir that has a better reputation than the cathedral parish. We have a tradition of good Liturgy and are on the second reverent priest. And we have been growing steadily since the initial two-year shake-out.

So, I pray for those going through such a situation where the new priest is challenged. Pray for him. Get out and support him publicly, without equivocation.

There will always be those in the church who oppose anything that challenges their comfort level. There will always be "insurance policy" Christians in every parish--if there is no God, a little time each week is a small loss; if there is, I've paid my premium and deserve the payout of Heaven. Ask the Lord for help--He never lets His faithful ones abandoned.

BOB

What becomes troubling is the policy of trying not to "rock the boat" with those who wish to maintain the "get it over with" liturgical tradition. It can exist at the parish level and it can exist at the eparchial level(!).

This parish story and the story of our parish in Illinois only goes to show that true leadership isn't afraid when efforts match mission.

We have a long and sorrowful history of trying to put on the cloak of inorganic traditions. Such superficiality got what it deserved: a rapidly decreasing number of sheep in the fold and a residual philosophy of getting it over with.

It is an interesting thing when liturgy and community goes from being inwardly drawn to outwardly shared; from hiding things under a bushel basket to setting a lamp on a high spot; from dumping a religion where God is made in the image of man to one where man is made in the image of God.

What often goes unnoticed is how these "get it over with" folks really drag down the spirit of a parish. Hopes for growth begin to disappear. Unfortunately, some of these folks are big contributors and may influence "spiritual" decisions. Money talks.

Over the years, we've been burned. What remains in some parishes is the burnt tissue that has never been scrubbed off. I am not suggesting that we separate the wheat from the chaff; I am only suggesting that we do what we are to do as Byzantine Catholic Christians and let the dead tissue chaff off on its own - like it usually does when religion begins to reorient itself towards God.

We have at our disposal much testimony in the Scriptures regarding how the Israelite faith had to deal with the religion of Canaan. Even religious leaders and their servants (so willing to play the game) followed the piper in introducing Canaanite practices. Our temples become infested with a "get it over with" Catholicism, a deadly and infestuous disease I might say.

Moving the lectern becomes as important to some as redefining the Trinity. Changing a tone becomes another attempt to change their religion. This form of religion is not incarnational, but externalistic.

We need to investigate and share the stories of those parishes that DID grow in their own communities after experiencing a "shake-out." Stories about parishes that are returning to a higly stlylized form of Latinized Greek Catholicism while relying on sheep stealing from other parishes to get their numbers up (as well as their income and cathedricum) should be ignored and rejected.

Joe Thur

Bob, well stated. Any major change will result in some loss of security, precisely because for many people church is the one place they can go where everything is predictable and the same in their minds.

But in the long run I have never seen any parish which radically changed towards a fuller liturgical life and deeper observance of tradition do anything but grow.

Diak,

Most excellent observation. And those parishes that do the opposite?

Religion in general and liturgy in particular must become for us a sense of community building.

At the seminary I once attended, a classmate of mine was having a Jewish friend visit him from New York City (they were both former fashion photographers). On one Sunday morning, his friend showed up at his dorm room and knocked on his door. He answered and found his Jewish friend all dressed up with tie and all and polished shoes.

"Why are you all so dressed up?" he asked.

His friend told him that they were going to liturgy and that he considered worship a "date with God," hence him being all gussied up.

My classmate seminarian was taken aback for many of the seminarians became somewhat lazy in their attire (something about not wanting to get into 'externals' - though many showed up wearing attire appropriate for sleeping).

A "date with God."

When religion and worship becomes a "date with God" a new perspective fills the air. One can't wait to get to church to worship (and it has nothing to do with "good music" or "getting something out of it"). One enjoys a community who loves God. Really!

The "get it over with" crowd is a loathsome clan of dreary drudes. Who'd go out on a date with folks looking and acting like a vulgur lot?

Joe Thur

I pray that that is so. I am convinced that a real renewal of our Church will begin with a Liturgical renewal. I know it will be difficult for those who think that Liturgy ought to be 'convenient' or 'short'. Both ideas, sadly are not part of our tradition.

Good Liturgy is never long enough, and bad liturgy is always too long, no matter what the clock says.

Fr. Elias,

Most excellent point! I remember the comments after liturgy was celebrated very long in its fullness. I heard no complaints, but rather approval. Remarks such as "Now THAT was a liturgy!" or "I certainly felt like I attended church today" or "That's the way it should be."

People, I sense, want a good liturgy no matter how long it is in earth-time. This attitude, I believe, is the secret majority mindset. Unfortunately, the minority is very vocal and pushy.

My wife has a coworker friend who is Baptist. She told my wife that their typical Sunday service lasts at least several hours and that they spend at least three to four hours on a regular Sunday in church worshipping and giving praise to God. She somewhat viewed our 1.25-hour long liturgy with suspicion. She asked if we took God seriously.

Joe Thur

We should all remember that fullness of liturgical life does not necessarily have a linear relationship with length. It is truly life in its fullest sense, it is the personality, heart and essence of a worshipping community. It is more than just following along in a book with long services.

In our parish we added the Small Compline with the Akathist to the Theotokos for the first five Fridays the Great Fast this year. While not an exceptionally long or complex service the response and turnout were far beyond mine or the pastor's expectations.

Joe saith:
"We have a long and sorrowful history of trying to put on the cloak of inorganic traditions. Such superficiality got what it deserved: a rapidly decreasing number of sheep in the fold and a residual philosophy of getting it over with."

When i read this, i could not help but to think, "Get it over with, and die as a Church. All the we have ans all that we do and are about is a nuisance to the mainstream. Once we are gone, then John Ireland can rest easy finally, since he will have his way."

I am not so sure this "get it over and done with" Philosophy is a Latinization, but a secularization of sorts. My folks and brother, as well as our pastor, remember when people would go to Mass on Sunday morning, go home and eat a big dinner, and return for the second Vespers for Sunday (in my parents parish, i think they also served the first Vespers on Saturday nights). Now in many parishes, mention the words "Vep.sers." or "Matins" or "Lauds" or even "chant" and the "GIOW" crowd goes nuts and thinks the parish is going back to the lace doily days.

Randy saith:
"While not an exceptionally long or complex service the response and turnout were far beyond mine or the pastor's expectations."

The turn out for all the services was very impressive, considering our small size, distances, and complaints of too many church services (only heard a couple of times).

When I was an undergraduate, a group of us used to drive 30 miles to one or another little Orthodox parish (OCA). The priests in both places served the Liturgy with the greatest reverence. The choirs, though small, were superb and showed the work that they and the priest had put in through the week--for the glory or God and the edification of their brethren. Liturgy was an hour and a half minimum and often more toward two hours. But even a converted Latin like myself could see that these people were truly in love with God.

Both parishes served the full liturgical cycle. We could go to Saturday morning Liturgy, Saturday Vespers or All Night vigil, and Sunday Liturgy every weekend. Lent was always a full schedule, too.

It can be done and should be done. As I posted before, get behind the priest and support him. Dive into the services and savor the richness of the faith expressed in your liturgical patrimony. My own impression of the Orthodox liturgical tradition is that it was like being in a bakery. (Did I mention I'm a glutton when it comes to baked goods. I don't want a doughnut--I want one of everything.) One experience was exquisite, but the next was even better. What is the best? The whole, taken without leaving out one little part, that the Holy Spirit has given to you--that is the best, because a part is never as good as being immersed in the whole.

Christ is Risen!!! Indeed He is Risen!!!

BOB

To a certain extent, this discussion has raised another issue in my mind. I have always lived in an area outside the tradition ByzCath American Heartland. Does it make sense for the eparchies to keep all these small churches out in the diaspora while trying to renew the churches "at home"? In other words, should we consolidate and strengthen before opening full parishes in the American diaspora?

Being out here, I want a nice parish, etc, but we can't have it at the expense of the Metropolia. Just wanted the opinions from those in the "homeland".

I'm not from the "homeland" myself.

Perhaps the real problem here is the idea that we should "consolidate and strengthen" first. A Church that is not evangelistic can not "strengthen" itself--evangelism shows our strength...it shows our spiritual health.

IMO, we as a Church need to repent of being a Church for "our people." We need to catch an evangelistic spirit and try to carry the good news to our neighbors who are not part of our ethnic heritage.

Or, is evangelism something we leave for the Romans to do?

David Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

At my Episcopal parish in Richmond, VA our principal service, Holy Eucharist at 10:30 typically lasts 1 1/2 to almost 2 hours. We are definately "high" on the Episcopal liturgy-meter! A few people complain, but for the most part no one can tell you what part o fthe service they are willing to leave out to make it shorter. As far as evangeliziation, we do this mostly through our programs to help the homeless, the poor, and local charitable org's. I agree with DTBrown re: reaching out. Most of our new members don't come from other churches- they come from no religious background at all. I think Eastern Christianty has a lot to offer "seekers" who find "standard brand" protestant churches to cut & dried and lacking in a sense of the mystical

The evangelical mission we have from the Gospel know no distinction between western Pennsylvania and western Kansas, North Dakota, New Mexico, wherever. Part of the "identity crisis" here we have to come to terms with is that any mission parish can come to be a stronghold of orthodoxy, and not feel compelled to compare everything to the historical geographic centers of the original immigrant parishes. "Our people" as defined by the Gospel whom we are to evangelize are everywhere and of all races and languages.

Mission parishes out in the hinterlands can in effect "start from scratch" in terms of the liturgical and spiritual life of the parish not affected by the baggage of some older parishes with perhaps much more entrenched latinizations, long-standing family internal politics, etc.

I admire that!

Quote:

As far as evangeliziation, we do this mostly through our programs to help the homeless, the poor, and local charitable org's....
Most of our new members don't come from other churches- they come from no religious background at all.

Right on! (oops, showing my age here!)

Quote:

I think Eastern Christianty has a lot to offer "seekers" who find "standard brand" protestant churches to cut & dried and lacking in a sense of the mystical

I think so too. There is so much to be done.


Michael, sinner

I agree!

Quote:

Mission parishes out in the hinterlands can in effect "start from scratch" in terms of the liturgical and spiritual life...

And perhaps become the mother church of many more.

It would be beautiful to see places like Houston, Kansas City and Manilla become the centers of new Eparchies.

There is so much to be done!

Michael, sinner

XB!

Aha, but I'd insist the Eparchy for South-East Asia be based in Singapore! After all, the oldest church building in my little former British-Colony is an eastern one - the Armenian church of St Gregory the Illuminator. Many will be surprised, but it appears the rich Armenian merchants raised money to buy land and build a church faster than the government-supported Anglicans

Just my two obols,

Edward

I wonder if those who are unhappy with the new pastor could have mentioned these things to him first, maybe they could have done this before starting a petition drive.
I wonder too if they have given any thought to the idea of not having a priest? Typica/Reader Services or no Services would be better?