Dear Dan,

As a former religion teacher myself, I thank you for sharing your beautiful and heart-felt story.

Too bad I can't go back and use it on the students now. Perhaps one day . . . with your permission, of course.

Alex

Dan,

See my post under Byzantine News for some information as to all the "trads" do for us.

K.

Please see my thread on "Misconceptions" in the Faith and Worship forum

Alex, what am I missing? Stuart's one-liners to Kurt sound more like sneers to me, than smiles.

I bet if we had RealVideo links to our messages, Stuart's would include the "superior dance" as his signature.

Dear RichC,

I was originally referring to a one-liner by Stuart before the whole thing on anti-semitism took the conversation into nastiness.

I want to stay friends with both Stuart and Kurt - and you - so I'll just say I thought that early statement was funny.

Kurt and Stuart sometimes provoke me to laughter - and other times, to tears . . .


Alex

It appears to me that the whole issue is one of semantics/semiotics.

Some folks function perfectly well with the 'words' alone. Others function well with the words, but with a specific environment. Others need the words, the environment, and the music. Others need the words, environment, music and sense of 'identity'. Yet others need all of the above and the US Marine Band with the Netherlands Carillon (at Arlington Cememtery) doing a full blast.

My point is: these folks can be found in both Roman and Byzantine churches. There are Romans who HATE the so-called 'Novus Ordo' because it is oftentimes so minimalist (='wordy') but nothing else. They want the 'full monte' with everything for it to be meaningful for them.

There are also Byzantines who run screaming from the 'recited' Byzantine liturgy. They want the full monte, with incense -- AND a priest who can actually do MORE than 'hit the notes'.

Full monte Romans often flee to the Byzantine (or Orthodox or High-Church Anglicans) while Byzantines flee either to other High-Church congregations (Roman or otherwise) or just give up.

My own perspective (frequently proffered)is that a person should grow where planted. If you're a Roman, stay within the Roman Church and raise hell for better liturgy. The same advice for Byzantines: stay within the Byzantine Church and encourage (or annoy) the liturgical folks into doing something of quality.

The idea of becoming a 'liturgical pilgrim' is not a good idea. It does violence to one's own spiritual perspective and annoys/frightens one's new congregation.

Have the strength of one's spirituality and DEMAND service where one is.

The prayer-life is first; the externals must SERVE the spiritual growth of the congregation. However, it should not serve to promulgate or advance a spiritual/historical/political agenda. That way ensures madness.

Let's pray for the strength to do what we need to do.

Blessings! Christ is Risen.

Dr John,

You are truly the font of all wisdom!!!!

As important as our outward worship is, if we do not have love of neighbor, something is wrong. I can name a hundre things tha tis not my perference in the outword worship in my parish. But pick up and go somewhere else? NEVER. These are my brothers and sisters in Christ. We come together to celebrate the birth of children and the burial of parents, of marriages and graduations, sickness and sorrow. we are to each other the real presense of the People of God.

I suspect I am a minority on this forum, but sometimes I read things that strike me as the same as asking for a new set of parents because Mom & Dad have plastic covering the furniture and a velvet painting of dogs playing poker over the sofa.

K.

Dr. John,

I can somewhat sympathize with your belief that people should remain where planted. However, be cautious that this does not come across as a "you're not welcome here" to Romans interested in becoming Byzantine. I wouldn't expect this attitude to come from you, but it does come from at least one other poster on this forum.

While it is ideal to say "stay where you have been planted," we continue to lose hundreds (or maybe thousands) of our young people each year to Roman Catholicism. Just ask around, and you will see this to be the case. Why not at least make this a fairer exchange, and receive some Roman Catholics into our Church to even out the numbers? Granted, we don't want Latinizers. But many former RCs come to appreciate our Byzantine Church for what it is. Heck, only a few years ago I was an RC interested in becoming Byzantine!

The flow from the Byzantine Church to the Roman Church is wide, and unencumbered. Why put up more obstacles in the tiny flow from the Roman to the Byzantine Church?

Anthony

Christ is Risen!

Anthony, in the great northeast, it may be a tiny flow, but elsewhere, there are parishes where the flow has completely displaced the cradled, to the point that the vast majority of "parishioners" are canonically under the jurisdiction of the local Roman bishop. In fact, such bishop has even been known to visit the parish to see what his people are up to.

It would be great if the commitment of these folks was such that they would become actual Byzantine Catholics, but in practice -- without any guidance from those who've lived the faith their whole lives -- they pretty much make it up as they go along.

For better or worse, in some of cases, this type of parish bears no resemblance at all to the other parishes to which it is supposedly canonically and spiritually joined.

[This message has been edited by RichC (edited 04-26-2001).]

Dear Anthony and RichC,

Yes, your posts provide much insight into these problems!

It is almost as if Byzantine Catholic parishes are prized by RC's for their perceived liturgical conservative nature. Do Byzantine Catholics become Roman because they want to join the mainstream, do you think?

Perhaps some of the Latinization in the Eastern Catholic Churches in North America was a way to keep their heads above water when Latin devotions and practices were seen as "progressive" and "with it."

This certainly was the case in Western Ukraine under Poland and Austria.

The Akathists to the Sacred Heart and the Immaculate Conception by Rev. Isidore Dolnitsky tried to create devotional practices in the EAstern Church to keep Byzantine Catholics there from attending such devotions in RC Churches.

Alex

I suspect Anthony is referring to me here, though I also suspects ours views might not be much different if he would take a little more care and forethought in his post.

FIRST PRINCIPLE: Every Christian community, including ours, as a duty to be open and welcoming to all who come our way and to evangelize. Not a minor point or a throw away line, but a primary duty of the faith.

SECOND PRINCIPLE: Pastoral care of souls is paramount. Every person is unique and special. Because people are individual and humam, they should be treated as so. The Church may have a particular vision of itself and how its functions, but indivudal pastoral situtions over-ride this. This is why as North Americans migrate from the Latin rite to an Eastern rite, the Church reacts passively.

THIRD PRINCIPLE: Ritual patrimony addresses the basic formation of one's spiritual life (JP2). Therefore the Church does not encourage migration. It would be normative to have one ritual patrimony within one place.

Having said all of this let me pin-point the weak link in his statement: "Why not at least make this a fairer exchange, and receive some Roman Catholics into our Church to even out the numbers?"

We are not engaging in some demographic game (I'll give you 3,000 Pennsylvanians in exchange for a parish and two nuns in Colorado). The suggestion that the Ruthenian Church has some affirmative program to "sheep steal" from the Latin Church so we have a "fair exchange" just has no basis in anything the Church has ever said.

K.

Good for you Dan!
I have often worshiped for 4 to 5 hours seemed like minutes.
Stephanos

Dragani, let me try to clarify what I meant in an earlier posting. I was trying to dichotomize the two different groups: the "words are it" group, for whom the recited words and prayers constitute the 'magical experience' of worship versus the "full monte" group, who need a half ton of brocade, a case of candles, 3 pounds of incense, and a full peal of bells.

There are members of each of these groups in every church. (Except, maybe for Quakers.) Ukrainians who accepted the 'recited Liturgy' as well as many of the 'low church' RCs find themselves in the former group. The Orthodox have a plethora of 'full monte' folks; many traditionalist RCs, Anglo-Catholics, and a large number of Byzantines fall into this group also. I see this contrast in worship styles as a primary element in reasons why folks migrate from one place to another.

"Full monte" RCs have it the best: they can migrate to a more high-church RC community or to the Byzantines and have no paperwork to fill out. Becoming Orthodox requires a passport.

Going the other way, finding a "words are it" RC parish is fairly easy for Eastern Catholics, and again: no paperwork. Same for the few Orthodox who move West: minimal paperwork, if any.

I am NOT in any way discouraging anyone from finding a place where he/she can pray and worship comfortably, least of all RCs coming to Byzantium or Orthodoxy. But I will always ask them to examine their reasons for doing so. If they are 'coming East' because it's "so traditional", then I have a problem.

The motivation MUST be spiritual growth. Do the prayers, fasting, worship, customs etc. lead one to PRAY better. Does the participation bring God closer? Has your love of God and neighbor -- INCLUDING one's erstwhile co-religionists!! -- increased? If someone comes to the Byzantine Church and then disparages one's former community, then I'm not sure that they're where they belong -- either for their own good or for ours. They haven't come as a result of seeking -- but rather as a result of fleeing. That's not good. Hence, my admonition: grow where you are planted. I personally believe that any and all pilgrims MUST establish a spiritual and pastoral relationship with the priest so that both he and they can test the foundation for the move.

It's got to be much, much more than the externals. Unfortunately, I believe that for many people it is not.

Christ is Risen!

Amen to Dr. John!

Amen! Again amen, Dr. John!

Move to Grow, not to escape! If you have to escape; do it, but don't kick the folks at home! And don't incite the people in your new house to kick them either. Seems like really good advice.

Look back with love and gratitude at what made you ready for the new home God has for you!

Joy!