Anthony,
I agree with your feelings about the Byzantine Church. I converted to the Roman Catholic Church and later discovered the Eastern tradition. After 10 years of struggle I came to the conclusion that Orthodoxy has drifted far away from its own roots and is not a solution to the problems in the Byzantine Church. Like you, I am disturbed by the Ruthenians who don't care about tradition, and the "Tridentines" who think that they can remake the Byzantine Chuch into their own image. I, also, have been profoundly changed by my participation in the liturgies and the spirituality of the Eastern Church, and wish that the Romans among us understood that the Eastern church presents a vision of Christ that is overwhelmingly and awesomely true. In the twelve years that I have been part of the Eastern tradition, I have experienced enough of priests who think that they own the traditions to know that "there is trouble in River City." I am living now in a city where the one Byzantine church is conducted by a priest who is not interested in maintaining the traditions at all and who has reduced his activity to the absolute minimum. Since he and the most of the parishioners are over 70, no one does anything about it.
I grew up in a very secular, very anti-religious environment, which I loved, and did not want to leave, except that my belief in truth compelled me to abandon my family and my friends for the promise of the truth of Christ. Most of my Christian life has been spent in churches where people attack each other for incredibly stupid and petty things, and whose lack of belief is appalling. The Eastern tradition struck me as the solution to the problems of Western rationalism and Enlightenment encroachments on tradition, but as I got involved with it, I saw that it has its own serious problems. Generally, I see the Church through the eyes of my brother whose skepticism is intense, no less because of the very problems that are discussed in these threads. The scandal of hatred among people who claim to believe in an invisible godhead incarnated in a visible church and represented by people who claim to have the true faith causes him to conclude that Christianity cannot be seriously contemplated by anyone seeking truth. The one breach in his skeptical armor has been the Divine Liturgy, when he heard a recording of it. It was not enough to pull him out of his intellectual training, but it was interesting watching his reaction to it. It confirmed the story about Vladimir. The hatred of Christians, however, overcame his attraction. Sort of like the effect of Eve's beauty, in Milton's Paradise Lost, on Satan before he tempts her.
Like you, I am convinced that the Eastern tradition is worth fighting for, even though I, too, have joined a Roman parish because the Eastern one here is disfunctional. I have not given up on the traditions and their importance and fortunately, as a teacher of literature, I can bring my knowledge of the East into my teaching of literature and the novels influenced by the East (mostly the Russian novel). We are clearly in a time of transition and of spiritual testing, but, since Christ has promised this, I am convinced that the entire Church will survive; I think it is premature to discuss the dissolution of the uniate church. What is needed is knowledge and that can only be provided by people who live the traditions of the Eastern church and can speak to them in venues not necessarily connected directly with religion. If all the things that Eastern Christians like about their participation in the Church really are true, then these things will be apparent to all who have contact with them and will speak to the truth of Christ. The Eastern tradition is about kenosis and participation in the sufferings and the glory of Christ; it is not about who has the better way.
That American Catholics and Orthodox prefer to argue with each other rather than to understand each other should be no surprise: the history of Christianity is one of distrust, heresy, fragmentation and schism; we should, instead, take comfort in the fact that those who suffer with Christ are his true followers.
Florida
(Sorry about all the editing. I am an English teacher.)

[This message has been edited by Florida (edited 12-22-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Florida (edited 12-22-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Florida (edited 12-22-2000).]

Dear Friends,

Glory to Jesus Christ!

This is such a stimulating and exciting discussion that anything I have to say will, I feel, be rather insignificant by comparison!

Whether Byzantine Catholics join other groups depends, I believe, on the reasons why they are Byzantine Catholics. Let me explain.

I have a friend who is a Greek-Catholic priest in a parish that is composed of Ukrainians and traditionalist Roman Catholics.

At the risk of generalizing, the Ukrainians see their Church as simply that, the Church that embodies their historic spiritual and cultural self-expression, language etc.

The Roman Catholics who have become Eastern Rite are largely disaffected post-Vatican II Catholics who see in the Byzantine Rite something of their beloved Tridentine heritage. They even sing the Divine Liturgy in Ukrainian, make the Sign of the Cross (once) with three-fingers, but going to the left first. They are by far the most active members in the parish.

So this is an example of two different cultural types of Byzantine Catholic. There are others, no doubt.

I don't think we can escape the cultural issue, however. It will always be with us. But we should be flexible enough in that department to allow for more than one kind of cultural brand of Byzantine Catholic.

My neighbour is Antiochian Orthodox. When they had their Conference in Toronto, I took the day off work to attend some of their workshops.

Frankly, I was tremendously impressed by them!

The main Byzantine Rite Orthodox group had their Liturgy. Both English and Arabic was spoken.

In addition, they have two western Rites, Roman and Anglican (St Tikhon). During the conference, several Anglican parishes came forward to explain their desire to join the Antiochians for varying reasons. The same was true of Roman Catholics.

They all wanted "out" of where they were, but wanted to take their traditions. The Antiochian Bishop present did not argue with them at all. He made them feel at home and just kept saying, "Welcome!" to them all.

These western Rite Orthodox also went on to get others to join them. Old Roman Catholics, Old Catholics, Evangelical Catholics and Orthodox - name it, and they are there.

The Catholic Church has also been very accommodating to different Rites and cultures.

A Coptic Church near where I live have introduced an English Liturgy. They now have members who are Chinese and who pray the Office or Agpeya daily.

I know my church has not been very accommodating by way of cultural adaptation. But that is a shame, especially when a friend of mine, a convert from Anglicanism, found himself excommunicated twice in three years (he is very devout to the point of making the rest of us feel impious!). He is now in the Orthodox Church of America and extremely happy, thank you very much.

Perhaps this is also a question of the pull of the mainstream toward either Roman Catholicism or elsewhere. Perhaps some may feel that the Byzantine Catholic experience is too "narrow" and not "universal" enough. Our small numbers and being between Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism may give some that impression.

Also, and I am thinking out loud, perhaps the idea of a Byzantine Rite in Roman Catholicism has simply become unworkable. Rome, I believe, would never have promoted the various Unions with the Eastern Churches if it knew then what it knows now.

This is not meant to be an unecumenical or anti-Catholic statement. Only that we must maintain our different spiritualities which flower best when we are within our own Orthodox Churches with our own autocephalous jurisdictions. Church unity can then be begun from that point. We had it for the first thousand years in this way, after all.

Perhaps this is what is behind the recent revelation that the Vatican will not approve Eastern Catholic parishes in Russia. That may be a very positive thing with respect to Orthodoxy and may reflect a new stage in the thinking of the Roman Patriarchate.

Like yourselves, I too see a universal Church of Christ where unity is based on real diversity. The Orthodox Catholic heritage of the first thousand years should be the standard in this, of course.

But until we are allowed to be fully who we are, Orthodox Christians and in full communion with our Orthodox Christian brothers and sisters, then who are we? Perhaps those who leave us go to places where there are better defined identities in terms of spirituality and culture.

These are my thoughts and I express them with some pain in my heart. May God forgive me if in anything that I have said there is uncharitableness in my heart. I ask the same forgiveness of you, my brothers and sisters.

In Christ,

Alex

Dragni,
Thank you! I think you have a very clear picture of the situation.

I agree, get out there and evangelize. The Eastern Catholic Church has a lot to offer people. But to do that you the laity have to start bringing them in to experience the Faith in all its richness.

Stephanos

Stephanos,

Christ is Risen!

Thank you for the kind words. Please say a quick prayer that God will breathe new life into the Byzantine Catholic Church, and fill us with a zeal for evangelization.

Anthony

Christos Anesti!

Evangelization here is tough for all Eastern Christians -- Orthodox and Catholic. The reason for that is that our tradition is at odds with the culture here, which is predominantly Western. Roman Catholicism and Protestantism, while they take issue with certain *aspects* of the culture here, are comfortable with many other aspects of Western culture, and therefore are a better cultural "fit" for most folks who live here. And this also applies to many third generation and later Byzantine Catholics and Orthodox.

Anthony,

I think you have some very valid points, but I think there are many reasons for why the Byzantine Church, in the United States, is suffering problems. One of the main reasons is that we are a small group, and historically, since our reunion with Rome, we have not done too much, as a community, to become known and really have a centeral identity to keep us together. In some respects, I think we need to look to the Scholastic Orders, and see how they survived and became well known -- influential figures who were charismatic in their appeal, sophisticated in their approach, and thus brought with them many who were interested in the Church to follow their principles. For Byzantines we have had a long time trying to figure out who we are, and I think the next step, the one which will keep us alive and make us grow, will be now taking the next step and having several influential theologians actually turning heads and getting people to know who we are, and Byzantines proud to be Byzantine.

Until then, I think we will see more Byzantine born go Latin or Orthodox.

Hi,

It's funny you should post this. I am serious about joining a nearby Byzantine Catholic Church. I am a life-long practicing Roman but I yearn for the Eastern side of the Church the way a young parish priest once mentioned that he was tempted now and again to join a monastery. For 2-3 years now I've thought about a change- it takes time. I love the church and the Holy Father, it always came down to the thought of abandoning him that caused me to stay-put.

Some ideas came into my head before Mass this morning, sometimes things are so clear when I wake up. Byzantine Catholicism is very precious to the Roman Church, indeed, Christendom. I think of you as being most like S. John's example of the Church of Philadelphia- keeping your robes white and not abandoning holy tradition.

What providence, in all of the East/West divisions, you were one of those chosen by the Holy Spirit of unity and love to do what??? God knows, and you aren't dying.

Dear Henry and Anthony,

Maybe we can grow our internet forum into some type of institute, actually offering online classes based on Byzantine Theology and spiritual practices? I seem to remember some discussion in another thread in a similar vein.

Christ is Risen!!!

John

Pilgrim and Odd Duck

Brethren: I think that there have been many interesting and valid points presented in this discussion.

My own perspective is from an anthropological viewpoint. People respond to ecclesiastical realities insofar as they correspond to or reject what is 'reality' to their own experience.

It matters little whether one is affiliated with Rome or Constantinople; the primary reality is: how do the belief, the liturgics and the theology speak to the person being evangelized? For the small number of people who are absolutely traumatized by the need to connect themselves to the 'apostolic' tradition, they will search for connectivity in whatever form they desire. For the true spiritual searchers, the 'apostolic tradition' is of less validity than the ability of the tradition to lead a person to spiritual fulfilment. These folks are the ones whom we need to target since they are the true searchers, and the ones who will become viable members ofthe community.

Let's pray that we can find and evangelize these people of good will.

Blessings!

How about this as a possible ongoing classified ad: "Tired of the hype? Want a Church with integrity and meat? Call (Priest's or number of a parishioner who is willing to bring them to church.)"

Dan L

Try reading and practicing what worked for the Holy Apostles in Acts 2 and 3. You can plan until you are blue in the face---but suffering souls need help---and they needed it yesterday!

Sisters and Brothers:


Our little group of fringe Orthodox started with seventeen members and a good three-fourths of us were related.



Last night at our Celebration of the Holy Mother of God "camp meeting" at the municipal park in New Smyrna Beach ( a city founded (in part) by Greeks), we had approximately forty-five souls essentially appear out of the blue to pray and hear the Word of God. We had a family of disenchanted and inactive Orthodox (with children) show a genuine interest in becoming "family." Many of the Catholics in attendance were encouraged to return to their faith and practice a deep and sincere devotion to the Holy Mother of God. We encouraged Protestants to renew their devotion to Biblical spirituality.


Out of that group of 40+ we will reap a harvest of 9-10. Not many, some would say. But for us, these beautiful and seeking souls are more precious than gold.


The lesson: Have perfect faith in the Holy Mother of God and stop the yap---just get to work. And be creative---you are working for "'yo momma, 'boy," as we say here in the South.


PS--(1) Don't be selfish! Direct souls to where they will grow in Christ. Don't claim what is not yours. (2) "If it's in the DNA, don't let them get away." Convince wandering Byzantine souls (Catholic or Orthodox), that it is self-destructive and very bad mental hygiene to try and become what you are not. As a Greek or Byzantine Jesse Jackson might say: "If you were born to the fold, you can't escape the mold, so be bold, and take hold, you gotta return to the fold!" Alleluia adelphi! (3) Don't run those infected with...uh...social diseases out the back door...even if they are practicing homosexuals. Once these beautiful brothers are loved...by straight people...they never forget that kindness and will become your most creative and reliable workers. ( I know that is anecdotal, but it is what I have observed. They will also need to come to you...often...and express their guilt over their sexual lives. Just remember....man does not live by sex alone...and homosexuals are far more than just sexual beings. Always encourage them and whatever they "confess" to you, you are bound by charity never to reveal to any other mortal.) (4) Pray like mad and do many prostrations. The exercise will do you good!


Christ is Risen!


Vasili



[This message has been edited by Vasili (edited 04-21-2001).]

I think it's a great idea with the caution that it shouldn't be in the NY Times or the Washington Post, but rather in the City Paper or other street-rag. And the priest and the people have to be made aware that there are going to be 'visitors' appearing in the Church who may not fit the mold. (And why are all of our Churches out in West Suburbia and not in the public-transportation accessible urban areas?) It seems that decisions have always been made to follow the ethnic groups in locating our churches without concern for possibilities for evangelization in denser urban areas. While I can see that locating the church in Upper Holupki will tend to bring 'our own' to the parish, what about the other folks?

Blessings!

Vasili, I agree with you 100%. How did you PR/promote this 'camp meeting' in the municipal park? [I know that just 'inviting' anybody to show up can be a real threat for some folks; did you have a problem with any church folks who were concerned about street-people etc. showing up? "They smell, you know."]

Blessings!

Dr. John, Vasili, et al,

We smell of incense. Just think of it as their incense.

I love the "camp meeting" idea. I came to Christ from a non-Christian home at a camp meeting. In fact, I helped conduct a camp meeting a couple of years ago when I was in my "home church" phase. Wait until I tell Father Loya about this "Camp meeting" idea.

Yes, all Churches tend to follow the ethnic groups rather than the needy. The Methodists and Baptists do the same thing. I think the only way to stop it is to keep the "old" church alive as a supported mission of the "new" church and then put some real effort into reaching the poor people of all races and backgrounds.

This board is really getting exciting!

Dan Lauffer

Dr.John,


Christos Anesti!


We don't advertise. If we did, the Fundamentalist preachers would swoop down on us, just itching to convert, "them 'thar "f-u-u-r-a-n-e-r heathens."

We just bring our food baskets, our icon stands, and ourselves, as well as a few friends we pick-up from the group homes.

We settle into a picnic pavilion----and from there out, it is a spontaneous event with a great deal of singing, which usually draws a small crowd. Icons and incense evoke a lot of curiosity, which opens the door for conversation and hospitality. We also pass out small Theotokos medals to the visitors.


The aroma challenged? We have our regulars, since we make a circuit of various parks (we have no temple). They
do not come for "the Spirit," but for a smile and a hot meal. For us, that is a good enough reason. No "go to hell," sermons from us. And the non-aromatic brethren like to be with us since they often have a chance for a reunion with our family members from the group homes. We have had only one "serious" incident and that was a quickly resolved screaming spat.

We always sing some Greek folk songs. Why? Because we love Greek folk songs and it draws peoples attention. Sometimes they will say that they heard that "Grecian" music at the local GOA parish big-bash Hellenic festival and that is just another door opener for conversation, the Good News, and conversion. You would be surprised at how many people have no idea that Orthodoxy is a Christian faith! On the other hand, you probably wouldn't be.


As you can see, evangelism can be very simple. No great mysteries to unravel here. This simplicity is what worked so well for the apostles. And the beauty is, it still works today. Learn to use what you have, but make sure your evangelists have a credible "witness." If the people in the pews (Sorry Dan!), don't know what or why they believe, it is better for them to stay at home until they do. You can't give or share what you do not have, right?


Vasili


Alethos Anesti!

[This message has been edited by Vasili (edited 04-21-2001).]