Glory to Jesus Christ! Glory forever!

Anthony,

I am so sorry that you are having such a difficult time. It really must hurt to consistently see the Orthodox parishes retaining and attracting young people and other energetic and excited converts while the Byzantine parishes are losing their young people to Roman Catholicism or Orthodoxy. This is not to mention your personal situation and the sitation at the Catholic University where Byzantines become Romans.

I can certainly relate to some of what you are going through since I also am a convert to Byzantine Catholicism. I am truly blessed to have my Russian parish that is true to Russian Orthopraxis and is very Catholic. I am also blessed to be so close to Holy Resurrection Monastery. In addition to being Carpatho-Rusyn, Orthodox, and Catholic it also a truly holy place just as a monastery should be. Exciting things are happening at the local Ruthenian and Ukrainian parishes.

I will remember you in my prayers.

Rusnak my Tory friend,

You are right on the term postchristian. Unchurched would be a better term.

Now, I'm getting up the nerve to advance my definition of Eastern Rite methodists.

K.

>>>Now, I'm getting up the nerve to advance my definition of Eastern Rite methodists.<<<

Never heard of them. There are, or were, Eastern-rite Presbyterians in Canada, however.

Glory to Jesus Christ!

I once interviewed a lovely woman of Ukrainian descent whose family belonged to a ‘Ukrainian Methodist’ church here in the US. I don’t think they were quasi-Byzantine Rite, though.

<a href="http://oldworldrus.com">Old World Rus’</a>

You boys are missing the point, but I don't quite have the guts yet to go into detail. Byzantine methodists are closer than you think.

K.

>>>You boys are missing the point, but I don't quite have the guts yet to go into detail. Byzantine methodists are closer than you
think.<<<

Oh, you telegraph your punches pretty well, Kurt. But not only are your poltics hopelessly outdated, so is your approach to religionsgeschecte.

Dear Dragani
Before I begin my reply I would like to pray that Our Lady ,The Joy of those who sorrow would come and comfort you. Your suffring will not be in vain!!! Just like to offer a couple of points. For those who do not know, I am a Roman Rite Catholic who loves the Byzantine Rite, and hope and pray that one day it would return to the splendor that it had before it started adopting latinizations. The best place to start would be with the Sunday Cycle. It would be great if there would be a place that would offer the compleate Sunday cycle of Vespers Matins and Divine Liturgy. Also please don't rush through the Liturgy. I was in one Church where they managed to go through the whole Divine Liturgy in barely under one hour. A second church,went right into the Cherubic Hymn after the Sermon and while they were doing this they were taking up the collection, so much for laying aside all earthly cares !! (As these are the only two churchs in my area that is why I do not go to an Eastern Church but to a Charismatic Contempory Roman Catholic Mass) By the way I know of Evangelical churches where the worship part of the service will last at least one hour !! They are not in any hurry. Nether should we be in such a hurry to worhip Our Lord and God. Also many of the Evangelical churches will offer some sort of organizations to help the person in there walk with the Lord. aka Promise Keepers. It would be nice to see that in the Eastern Rite Churches!! People want and need more than the Parish Societies that our Grandparents grew up with. I mean we are the bearers of the Gospel of Jesus Christ which is good news of salvation. Don't try to water down the liturgy because some one might think that it is "too long"and that we might frighten away members. Also have you ever thought about offering Classes in the Byzantine Rite. I am sorry if this seems that this is rambling but this is something I feel passionate about.

[This message has been edited by theodore perkoski (edited 10-22-2000).]

A very interesting thread.

There's a lot to comment on here. I guess what really bothers me is the apparent attitude expressed by Anthony's childhood friend. So, the only solution to the problems he saw in his Church was to abandon it and try to encourage others to do so?

The parishes I knew in Phoenix, Arizona are vibrant and full of young people. (Stop and visit my old parish St Thomas in Gilbert, Arizona sometime!) I've been told that this is the case in some other parishes in the Eparchy of Van Nuys also. Having said that I now live over 300 miles from the nearest parish in this Eparchy and now worship in a Roman parish. I'd like to see a Byzantine mission here but such are not started overnight. I'm amazed, however, at the respect for the Eastern tradition I find here among Romans. I kind of expected a "you're a what?" type of answer from most people. The response from priests, religious ed and lay parishioners has been very positive.

I think a lot of what Anthony says is right on. We must take the approach that what we do in our church is something we would want to invite our neighbors to--ours is a faith for all our neighbors too (we are not just a pocket of Eastern tradition for people with that background.) I think we've learned we are not here to convert the Orthodox (you don't convert "sisters" to be part of the family), but we also shouldn't take the view that we are simply a historical accident. Yes, politics played a big part in the formation of some Eastern Catholic Churches but it would be a very simplistic view of history to say that is all there is to our existence. Sometimes I think some of us have accepted uncritically some of the polemics that are bandied around in publications such as _The Christian Activist_.

I think one of the biggest problems we face today is in our view of the Roman Church. We demand respect from the Romans--rightfully so considering the problems we faced in the past two centuries in this country. But, things have been changing for the good here. Both sides are still working on it--but there's been a vast improvement. Maybe we should give more respect to the Romans? They're our "sisters" too.

Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

To me, you are very much on target and, from my perspective the Byzantine Church in America has started all of the above. This should be a source of positive pride and happiness for you.

It is people like yourself who advance the Church and her teachings. What we need to do is increase the numbers of people who love their Church as much as you seem to love it and work within the Church rather than jumping about. Evangelize, as you say. ---

But first, it might be wise to make sure there is sufficent diversity within the Church for people to reach their spiritual destiny without being rejected because they are different or have different views. I have sometimes noticed some very dogmatic positions on this message board that are aimed at exclusiveness rather than inclusiveness.

My family is Hungarian Greek Catholic who often attend Roman Rite Churches. I attend a Ukrainian Catholic Church because there is no other eastern Church in my area united with Rome AND BECAUSE I truely feel that the Byzantine traditions bring me closer to the Father. Although very rich and comforting to many in my parish, I overlook the ethnic aspects of my Church. On the other hand, I find something very special in the spirit of my eastern heritage, in the community of my Church, in the ability of Divine Liturgy to unite me with Christ and thus make me feel good. I do not go to a Ukrainian Catholic Church because it is Ukrainian but becuase it brings me closer to Christ.

We too are a dying parish and I am sad that the Church has chosen not to grow, that is, to evangelize. I agree that much of the problem is in our ethnic heritage emphasis. As I understand one mission of the Church is to prolaim Christ, "make disciples of all nations" (Kerygma). But, sometimes we are not open to all ... just to those with similar ethnic background. So, your points one and two are well taken. Maybe "we Ukrainian Catholics" should take note also and emphasize those missions that are truely identifiable with Christ: service, communion in the Holy Spirit, and Liturgy for all peoples.

I respect the Orthodox but this has never been an option for me. Therefore, I don't understand your friends who find greater comfort there than in the Catholic tradition. Yet, I have noticed a lot of worship of the Orthodox on this message board.

>>>I respect the Orthodox but this has never been an option for me. Therefore, I don't understand your
friends who find greater comfort there than in the Catholic tradition.<<<

Define "the Catholic Tradition", and then tell me how the Orthodox are not part of it.

Stuart,
My intent in using the term “Catholic tradition” was not to exclude anyone or to indicate that Orthodox traditions (that is customs) do not influence Catholic traditions or that Catholic traditions do not influence Orthodox traditions. Neither do I intend to indicate that Catholic tradition (meaning revelation) is necessarily at odds with Orthodox tradition (meaning revelation). However, I can see how that might be a legitimate conclusion to my statement.

I suppose I mean a number of things by the term. First, I use it in an anthropological sense, that is, unique customs, behaviors, practices, beliefs, loves, fears, attitudes and ways of living etc. that are transmitted from generation to generation. Certainly the primacy of the Bishop of Rome is one such belief difference between Catholics and Orthodox. Another traditional difference is the use of the Julian vs the Gregorian calendar. One’s experiences as a Byzantine Catholic in the Ukrainian Church, in the Hungarian Church differs from each other and those of a Roman Catholic as well as those of an Orthodox Christian. This to me adds up to traditions.

In the theological sense, Catholic tradition might differ from other Christian groups in such questions related to Divinity, to authority, to the importance and interpretation of oral and written texts, to doctrines and institutions for example. How a Catholic expresses ideas, laws, and concepts related to God might be different than an Orthodox. Although certainly both have analogous roots, their expressions have been shaped by their historic, geographic, economic and cultural circumstances and intentions.

I believe that God has given us a free will and that our sacred and religious customs, habits, and writings along with our interpretations of nature and Divinity have been shaped by that will. Thus, again, giving rise to unique traditions in our religious practices as well as our beliefs.

The topic “tradition as revelation” is much to lengthy and complex for me but I have a feeling that this is your referral. No? Yes? At any rate, I am not prepared to argue pro or con the experiences of the Orthodox or Catholic in revelation. I recognize that certain practices and beliefs aid me to become closer to God. These are the traditions to which I refer.
Ed

The drift to Roman is nothing new. I just found out my roots are Byzantine, rather than Roman, as I had been raised.

Certainly there other Ruthenians like myself who want to go back to the old ways. Don't give up!

Actually, Anne hasn't become Eastern Orthodox. She may not even be a remaining Christian anymore. She is going through a spiritual crisis and could probably use our prayers. She dropped out of the Orthodox Catechumen's class last month.

In Christ,

Joseph

Some of you may remember Anne, the self-titled "Black Byzantine Catholic" who posted on here last year. She had joined one of our parishes only a year ago, and now has left - to become Eastern Orthodox.

Glory to Jesus Christ! Glory forever!

Spidey75, please tell Ann that Doulos of Fatima and other members of the Byzantine Forum will keep her in their prayers. We also wish her a Most Blessed Nativity of Our Lord.

Anthony --

I don't think the doom and gloom approach is very helpful.

Stuart is correct -- what is changing is the nature of the Eastern Churches (Catholic and Orthodox) in the USA. The fact that the Byzantine Catholics haven't attracted as many newcomers as the Eastern Orthodox have in recent years should not be seen as a weakness of the Byzantine Catholic Churches but simply a reflection of their different situation. It certainly doesn't reflect poorly on the Eastern Catholics, in my opinion. It's just harder because there are so fewer Eastern Catholic parishes around than there are Eastern Orthodox parishes, and the Eastern Catholic parishes are less consistent. That is changing, such that at some point in the future, it may be the case that there are very few differences between most EC parishes and most EO parishes. I think for a committed Eastern Catholic like you, patience is the principal virtue. I would advise you to be patient in this.

I think the real emphasis should be on living the life in christ in your local parish and making it a fine spiritual home. That, if successful, will tend to attract people even without a lot of "targeted" evangelism. And, at the end of the day, it matters little whether most of the people in the parish are of one or another ethnic background -- what matters is that who is there is being fed there, is growing there.

Brendan