This is a discussion of the use of the term "convert mentality" to mean overzealousness.

This is arising from another thread.

Alex said,

I said,

Alex then responded,

Alex,


If there is such a thing as "convert mentality", it is about making sacrifices that others in your church aren't asked to make. It is about serving the church in ways the old guard wouldn't consider. It's about having to change entirely the way you see yourself, God, and your family. Sometimes in the midst of these changes people get overzealous. Part of it may come when the convert perceives that those born into the faith take it for granted. Sometimes it may come because they perceive those born into the faith as lazy whiners. Sometimes they may believe they have made sacrifices the old guard would never make and they somehow believe this entitles them to something extra. Somtimes their perceptions may have some truth. Sometimes they do not.

Where some may fail is in humility and they become overzealous. That being said, I've seen the same thing from those born into it. Which still makes me wonder why you call overzealous arrogance "convert mentality," as if this arrogance is the primary overriding drive of all converts.

I know many converts have this propensity. But are you, Alex, without all fault? Should they be denied access to Christ because their faults are somehow worse than yours?

I know you weren't trying to discuss "convert mentality" when you made your statement. I suppose you thought you would just toss that epithet out there.

I really don't think you are as anti-convert as you sound to me.

I wish I had time to do this right.

Alex, I think you're a great guy and you're ALMOST always right about many things.

I'm just trying to understand your views on converts. I know I sound condemning, but I'm not trying to be. I understand the importance of cultural homogeneity (*NOT* ethnic homogeneity) and the important role of culture in Eastern Christian churches.

I wonder if the error is in how converts are won and how they are taught.

Though I am born a Catholic, I wandered far before my return and most of my close friends have been converts. I always joked that I had the best of both worlds: it was as fresh and new to me as a convert but I didn't have to learn a whole new lingo, culture, and secret handshake.

Then I fell in love with icons and the Divine Liturgy and here I am, feeling like a convert, having to learn a whole new ecclesiastical culture. I understand a little of the lingo, but the secret handshakes elude me...

My first Pascha we read in the bulletin that there would be a blessing of the baskets after liturgy, and we came this close to bringing our kids' Easter baskets! Imagine our reaction when we saw baskets with cheese and sausages in them...
Seriously though, if you don't want converts you are not going to survive. Read the statistics any way you want, the Byzantine Churches which are not receiving an influx of immigrants are in decline. And as soon as the immigrants settle in, they will start contracepting and their 1.5 kids will marry outside the Church, move away, become Protestant or New Age or indifferent and you will be sitting in church with a few other oldsters week after week until you die out...

Daniel,

You should have brought the kids' baskets for the blessing... That's nothing out of the ordinary.

Fr Rector encourages families to bring the adult and children's Easter Baskets for the blessing.

Decades ago, I knew a Carpatho-Russian guy with an Italian wife. I never actually saw this, but he swore that he used to bring a basket to Church for the blessing on Pascha - with (among other items) fresh-baked lasagna and a bottle of Asti Spumante in it! I did have the great pleasure of eating the lasagna (home-made and delicious).
For those who wish to be more traditional (although since the lasagna included both meat and cheeses, I see no reason why it shouldn't be blessed - and, by the way, some editions of the Trebnik give a special blessing for wine), there are any number of pamphlets around explaining what might go in the basket of foods for the Paschal blessing.
As to the convert mentality, I believe that everyone is accustomed to eat!
Incognitus

Dear Iconophile,

Why did you think that you could not bring your children's Easter baskets ?

Our UGCC parishes have always ENCOURAGED children (girls and boys) to participate with their own baskets.

Children will usually include their own decorated eggs. There are Eater egg decorating kits that can be purchased in any local drug store (CVS, Walgreens, Brooks, etc..) for between $ 2 - 5 and include dye colours, decals, and other decorations. Children as young as 4 years old participate in this tradition.

Hritzko

Hi Hritzko!

Oh, I think I can understand the concerns. Speaking for myself and not presuming to understand anyone elses position I can truthfully say that I had no idea what to expect when I encountered the same custom in my parish. Perhaps the fears are overblown in the eyes of someone who's ancestors were baptized in the Carpathian mountains but that's just how being new is. It is a comfort to know that the parishioners at my parish put all kinds of cute family items in their baskets, but I didn't know that then . They have real joy about it and look at each others baskets and smile and laugh.

When someone is from a completely different tradition even the littlest things can be a bit intimidating: how to dress, when to stand or kneel, even how to take communion (how many newcomers will stick out that "little pink pillow" when accepting communion?).

It can be downright nerve wracking, we are talking comfort-zone items here.

Thankfully, the Byzanteens of my parish will prepare a Pascha basket for all of the new parish members if they want it, full of all of the right things, and a cute little list of what is traditionally included in the basket. Actually many newcomers like myself may not have been following the traditional fast because they are still acclimating to the Byzantine way and the adjustment takes a while.

Believe me, when you are new in a religious setting like ours with so many rewarding and valuable traditions you really want to absorb it all, feel accepted and participate fully. The last thing we need is a humbling experience before you feel comfortable in the new environment.

But I have found my parish to be a warm, open and inviting experience, not at all justifying my fears!

Michael

Dear Cizinec,

I'm not ignoring you - it's been a long weekend in more ways than one!

By "convert mentality" I mean "extreme convert mentality."

Someone had an article that talked about the extreme convert, and I think we've all known one or two, who comes to church with "prayer ropes dangling from his wrists" etc.

They are zealous to a fault and one of my best friends was just such - crossing himself at every turn in public, blessing his doughnuts in a shop ("Vat a vanderful boy you var!" a lady shrieked when she saw him one day).

That's all I meant. I find such converts with their "all or nothing" "black and white" perspectives to be, well, interesting.

Others find them bothersome.

I just find them interesting . . .

Alex

Dear All,

I think that your custom of blessing Easter baskets is really a beautiful one!

One question about the kid's baskets though... does the Easter bunny give them to the children?

Alice

Alex...
do we count as extreme converts if we wait over a year to walk around with our chotki dangling from our wrists?

Vie

What? It's not SUPPOSED to be worn on the wrist? Oh no!
What has been derisively called "the convert mentality" sounds suspiciously like being in love...of course we may make fools of ourselves! And we may offend the sensibilities of the staid. But at least we're not lukewarm, and don't worry, I'm sure we'll calm down in time [unfortunately; doesn't the book of Revelation speak of returning to your first love as a good thing?]

I have been accused of the "convert mentality", but I agree with you...I'm in love and unfortunately, will eventually get to the point where that love grows comfortable and I begin to take the object of my love for granted...but until then I am enjoying every minute of it. The person who told me that I was being a bit extreme also gave me the cheery news that I would 'get over it'...

Personally I have never been sure if the Chotki was supposed to be worn on the wrist by everyone or just Father and our Deacon...but I do use it as a reminder to pray as much as possible, and having it on my wrist is convienent since that way I always have it at my fingertips. I made mine look like a bead bracelet though because of my father...while I was growing up I heard him constantly critize those who he felt were 'advertising' their religion...people who wore big crosses(lay people who wore them, he felt that it was okay for clergy) or who wore their medals on the outside of their clothes instead of inside...people who wore their rosaries(or chotkis). He used to say "who are they trying to impress, God or everybody else". So while I like having my chotki near to hand, I could hear my father's voice in my head when I tried to wear a rope one...

Crossing ourselves all the time..this is how our priest instructed us...but to be honest, while I remember to do this while at Church, it's not be a constant habit in everyday life...we said 'grace' over all our meals, whether at home or in public, even when we were Roman, so on that score, at least, I can claim that being a convert has nothing to do with it..LOL.

Vie

Dear Vie, In the Russian tradition, strictly speaking, the Chotki is worn only by monastics or those who are single. It is of course a reminder to us of our obligation and desire to 'pray always' very much as the Jewish kippot is worn. It also is for us (monastics) almost worn as a 'wedding band' or a sign of our commitment to desire union with the Divine spouse of our souls.

There is nothing 'wrong' with wearing the chotki, but in some Orthodox traditions, it would be looked upon as 'odd' or 'showy' to wear it. That being said, I think it is an EXCELLENT idea to CARRY the chotki with you and to USE it on planes and trains and in cars and everywhere...and in the end, if you choose to wear one, as long as your spiritual father has blessed this, then there should be no problem.

In His Holy Name,
+Father Archimandrite Gregory

Dear Friends,

There is nothing wrong with being zealous.

I think that Extreme Converts are ones who are definitely, as Father Archimandrite said, "showy" in exhibiting this or that.

In other words, they like standing out and making it a point to show they are "more Orthodox than the Orthodox."

They especially like annoying people unnecessarily in the parish.

Some of them eventually calm down and settle in, while using their charisms in a positive way around the parish.

Others simply find their parishes to be "not of God" and move on to another jurisdiction or even another Church or religion.

Most of the EC's (Extreme Converts) I've known have moved on, in most cases, into the ROCOR or one of its off-shoots.

Some who have moved into the ROCOR have now even left it for the ROAC!

Alex

Father Bless,
Thank you Father Gregory for clearing up my confusion...to be honest, at times I feel a bit guilty wearing my 'bracelet' because I am not sure if I am supposed to be or not.
I haven't really spoke to my spiritual Father about whether I should wear it or not, I will ask him about it this week and be guided by what he tells me.

Kissing your right hand,
Vie