This is a discussion of the use of the term "convert mentality" to mean overzealousness.

This is arising from another thread.

Alex said,

I said,

Alex then responded,

Alex,


If there is such a thing as "convert mentality", it is about making sacrifices that others in your church aren't asked to make. It is about serving the church in ways the old guard wouldn't consider. It's about having to change entirely the way you see yourself, God, and your family. Sometimes in the midst of these changes people get overzealous. Part of it may come when the convert perceives that those born into the faith take it for granted. Sometimes it may come because they perceive those born into the faith as lazy whiners. Sometimes they may believe they have made sacrifices the old guard would never make and they somehow believe this entitles them to something extra. Somtimes their perceptions may have some truth. Sometimes they do not.

Where some may fail is in humility and they become overzealous. That being said, I've seen the same thing from those born into it. Which still makes me wonder why you call overzealous arrogance "convert mentality," as if this arrogance is the primary overriding drive of all converts.

I know many converts have this propensity. But are you, Alex, without all fault? Should they be denied access to Christ because their faults are somehow worse than yours?

I know you weren't trying to discuss "convert mentality" when you made your statement. I suppose you thought you would just toss that epithet out there.

I really don't think you are as anti-convert as you sound to me.

I wish I had time to do this right.

Alex, I think you're a great guy and you're ALMOST always right about many things.

I'm just trying to understand your views on converts. I know I sound condemning, but I'm not trying to be. I understand the importance of cultural homogeneity (*NOT* ethnic homogeneity) and the important role of culture in Eastern Christian churches.

I wonder if the error is in how converts are won and how they are taught.

Though I am born a Catholic, I wandered far before my return and most of my close friends have been converts. I always joked that I had the best of both worlds: it was as fresh and new to me as a convert but I didn't have to learn a whole new lingo, culture, and secret handshake.

Then I fell in love with icons and the Divine Liturgy and here I am, feeling like a convert, having to learn a whole new ecclesiastical culture. I understand a little of the lingo, but the secret handshakes elude me...

My first Pascha we read in the bulletin that there would be a blessing of the baskets after liturgy, and we came this close to bringing our kids' Easter baskets! Imagine our reaction when we saw baskets with cheese and sausages in them...
Seriously though, if you don't want converts you are not going to survive. Read the statistics any way you want, the Byzantine Churches which are not receiving an influx of immigrants are in decline. And as soon as the immigrants settle in, they will start contracepting and their 1.5 kids will marry outside the Church, move away, become Protestant or New Age or indifferent and you will be sitting in church with a few other oldsters week after week until you die out...

Daniel,

You should have brought the kids' baskets for the blessing... That's nothing out of the ordinary.

Fr Rector encourages families to bring the adult and children's Easter Baskets for the blessing.

Decades ago, I knew a Carpatho-Russian guy with an Italian wife. I never actually saw this, but he swore that he used to bring a basket to Church for the blessing on Pascha - with (among other items) fresh-baked lasagna and a bottle of Asti Spumante in it! I did have the great pleasure of eating the lasagna (home-made and delicious).
For those who wish to be more traditional (although since the lasagna included both meat and cheeses, I see no reason why it shouldn't be blessed - and, by the way, some editions of the Trebnik give a special blessing for wine), there are any number of pamphlets around explaining what might go in the basket of foods for the Paschal blessing.
As to the convert mentality, I believe that everyone is accustomed to eat!
Incognitus

Dear Iconophile,

Why did you think that you could not bring your children's Easter baskets ?

Our UGCC parishes have always ENCOURAGED children (girls and boys) to participate with their own baskets.

Children will usually include their own decorated eggs. There are Eater egg decorating kits that can be purchased in any local drug store (CVS, Walgreens, Brooks, etc..) for between $ 2 - 5 and include dye colours, decals, and other decorations. Children as young as 4 years old participate in this tradition.

Hritzko

Hi Hritzko!

Oh, I think I can understand the concerns. Speaking for myself and not presuming to understand anyone elses position I can truthfully say that I had no idea what to expect when I encountered the same custom in my parish. Perhaps the fears are overblown in the eyes of someone who's ancestors were baptized in the Carpathian mountains but that's just how being new is. It is a comfort to know that the parishioners at my parish put all kinds of cute family items in their baskets, but I didn't know that then . They have real joy about it and look at each others baskets and smile and laugh.

When someone is from a completely different tradition even the littlest things can be a bit intimidating: how to dress, when to stand or kneel, even how to take communion (how many newcomers will stick out that "little pink pillow" when accepting communion?).

It can be downright nerve wracking, we are talking comfort-zone items here.

Thankfully, the Byzanteens of my parish will prepare a Pascha basket for all of the new parish members if they want it, full of all of the right things, and a cute little list of what is traditionally included in the basket. Actually many newcomers like myself may not have been following the traditional fast because they are still acclimating to the Byzantine way and the adjustment takes a while.

Believe me, when you are new in a religious setting like ours with so many rewarding and valuable traditions you really want to absorb it all, feel accepted and participate fully. The last thing we need is a humbling experience before you feel comfortable in the new environment.

But I have found my parish to be a warm, open and inviting experience, not at all justifying my fears!

Michael

Dear Cizinec,

I'm not ignoring you - it's been a long weekend in more ways than one!

By "convert mentality" I mean "extreme convert mentality."

Someone had an article that talked about the extreme convert, and I think we've all known one or two, who comes to church with "prayer ropes dangling from his wrists" etc.

They are zealous to a fault and one of my best friends was just such - crossing himself at every turn in public, blessing his doughnuts in a shop ("Vat a vanderful boy you var!" a lady shrieked when she saw him one day).

That's all I meant. I find such converts with their "all or nothing" "black and white" perspectives to be, well, interesting.

Others find them bothersome.

I just find them interesting . . .

Alex

Dear All,

I think that your custom of blessing Easter baskets is really a beautiful one!

One question about the kid's baskets though... does the Easter bunny give them to the children?

Alice

Alex...
do we count as extreme converts if we wait over a year to walk around with our chotki dangling from our wrists?

Vie

What? It's not SUPPOSED to be worn on the wrist? Oh no!
What has been derisively called "the convert mentality" sounds suspiciously like being in love...of course we may make fools of ourselves! And we may offend the sensibilities of the staid. But at least we're not lukewarm, and don't worry, I'm sure we'll calm down in time [unfortunately; doesn't the book of Revelation speak of returning to your first love as a good thing?]

I have been accused of the "convert mentality", but I agree with you...I'm in love and unfortunately, will eventually get to the point where that love grows comfortable and I begin to take the object of my love for granted...but until then I am enjoying every minute of it. The person who told me that I was being a bit extreme also gave me the cheery news that I would 'get over it'...

Personally I have never been sure if the Chotki was supposed to be worn on the wrist by everyone or just Father and our Deacon...but I do use it as a reminder to pray as much as possible, and having it on my wrist is convienent since that way I always have it at my fingertips. I made mine look like a bead bracelet though because of my father...while I was growing up I heard him constantly critize those who he felt were 'advertising' their religion...people who wore big crosses(lay people who wore them, he felt that it was okay for clergy) or who wore their medals on the outside of their clothes instead of inside...people who wore their rosaries(or chotkis). He used to say "who are they trying to impress, God or everybody else". So while I like having my chotki near to hand, I could hear my father's voice in my head when I tried to wear a rope one...

Crossing ourselves all the time..this is how our priest instructed us...but to be honest, while I remember to do this while at Church, it's not be a constant habit in everyday life...we said 'grace' over all our meals, whether at home or in public, even when we were Roman, so on that score, at least, I can claim that being a convert has nothing to do with it..LOL.

Vie

Dear Vie, In the Russian tradition, strictly speaking, the Chotki is worn only by monastics or those who are single. It is of course a reminder to us of our obligation and desire to 'pray always' very much as the Jewish kippot is worn. It also is for us (monastics) almost worn as a 'wedding band' or a sign of our commitment to desire union with the Divine spouse of our souls.

There is nothing 'wrong' with wearing the chotki, but in some Orthodox traditions, it would be looked upon as 'odd' or 'showy' to wear it. That being said, I think it is an EXCELLENT idea to CARRY the chotki with you and to USE it on planes and trains and in cars and everywhere...and in the end, if you choose to wear one, as long as your spiritual father has blessed this, then there should be no problem.

In His Holy Name,
+Father Archimandrite Gregory

Dear Friends,

There is nothing wrong with being zealous.

I think that Extreme Converts are ones who are definitely, as Father Archimandrite said, "showy" in exhibiting this or that.

In other words, they like standing out and making it a point to show they are "more Orthodox than the Orthodox."

They especially like annoying people unnecessarily in the parish.

Some of them eventually calm down and settle in, while using their charisms in a positive way around the parish.

Others simply find their parishes to be "not of God" and move on to another jurisdiction or even another Church or religion.

Most of the EC's (Extreme Converts) I've known have moved on, in most cases, into the ROCOR or one of its off-shoots.

Some who have moved into the ROCOR have now even left it for the ROAC!

Alex

Father Bless,
Thank you Father Gregory for clearing up my confusion...to be honest, at times I feel a bit guilty wearing my 'bracelet' because I am not sure if I am supposed to be or not.
I haven't really spoke to my spiritual Father about whether I should wear it or not, I will ask him about it this week and be guided by what he tells me.

Kissing your right hand,
Vie

Dear Vie,

When my children, as teenagers returned from a Greek Orthodox Archdiocese religious camp in Greece, all the American Greek Orthodox priests there gave the kids chotkis, taught them to pray the Jesus Prayer, and the kids all returned wearing them on their wrists. The black knotted ones with one bead looked kind of 'cool' besides!

My husband carries his in a pocket of his coat, and has it handy to pray on inconspicuously, in the car, walking, or wherever he feels he needs a quick spiritual lift.

In the Greek Orthodox church, the monastics are very big on chotkis. I was given my first one by the elder of the monastery the first time I visited and spoke to him. Generally, in my church, when I see someone wear one, I know that they have probably had some contact with a monastery either in Greece or in this country. Personally, I am not offended by seeing them... infact, I rejoice...as I do when someone is wearing a cross or crucifix on their neck.

Fondly, in Christ our Lord,
Alice

Alex,

Perhaps I can help you understand a bit of the convert attitude and you can help me understand your perspective.

To convert, a person most often must:

1. Admit that something they were raised with and learned to love is largely wrong.

2. They have to find what it is that they beleive is right.

3. They have to study a great deal more than many of the "insiders" were required.

4. They have to explain, and most often defend, their decision to those closest to them.

5. Some have to be willing to leave very close relationships including that of parents, siblings, close friends, and even spouses.

6. Then they have to settle in to a compromised reality.

For someone to admit they are wrong or that their family was wrong may take courage. The learning and seeking process takes even more time and dedication. The individual often argues against the faith which they finally adopt. They generally learn through polemics. Primarily because that is what polemics are designed to do: argue the case for a particular faith.

The next step requires them to go to a church where they feel like foreigners even though they know why they are going. They ask probing, sometimes argumentative questions. Not because they are rude, but because they are giving up important aspects of their initial view of existence itself. They have to study and learn traditions that aren't theirs and are asked to show these traditions great respect, which they do.

Then they have to confront their families who often times disown them. They lose friends and some, and I know personally of one, lose their spouse.

All of this is done and asked for by cheerful folks with smiles on their faces, who don't seem to understand the gravity of what they ask. Then, when the convert goes to settle in to the parish, they find that the people don't revere the traditions for which the convert may have just sacrificed his/her family. Do they get angry and tell the parishioner, "Hey, why aren't you following the tradition you cheerfully asked me to give up my family for?" Yes. The response is usually, "Be flexible."

Sometimes that is what is needed, but great pastoral care must be shown, not only by the priest, but by the parishioners. For one prominent parishioner to come up to someone who may have suffered things the parishioner has no vague idea of or has no resolve to endure and say, "You are too rigid and have 'convert mentality' and we don't want your kind here," this can be devastating. So they leave and go somewhere where they will be taken seriously.

Yes, some need to be reigned in, but it needs to be done with pastoral care and not vague epithets. Patience and care, not arrogance and abrogation.

Well put, Cizinec; the misunderstanding between those who have always been a part of something and those for whom it is new and fresh is constant and recurring...
There is something to be said for each side: converts can be a pain in the ass, and lifers can be semi-conscious.

Dear Cizinec,

Actually, what you wrote describes my situation perfectly - even though I'm a so-called "lifer."

Since university, I've drawn closer to my true Eastern heritage and this has unnerved most of my family and friends.

They think I've gone "Orthodox" and are always asking me if I still believe in the Pope . . .

I've also helped friends in their experiences in becoming Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox.

One friend, a former Anglican, is now an OCA priest and he has "calmed down" with respect to a lot of things that he used to do in public.

As a matter of fact, he now counsels new converts to Orthodoxy to NOT be as he was!

My old parish has an anchorite whose family actually disowned her after she became Catholic and a nun.

Her RC Order told her she must STOP attending Byzantine Divine Liturgies - and she then left to become an EC. She is now with us as an anchorite.

A "convert" in the East especially does not need to be someone who moves from one faith or Church to another.

A "convert" can be someone who has simply found the path to a deepened practice of his or her Christian faith.

And someone who is a "catechumen" is not necessarily someone who hasn't received baptism yet.

It could be me who needs to deepen my faith and its practice and when the priest issues the call for the Catechumens to leave at the Liturgy - this is a call for that part of me that needs deeper conversion to leave the Temple of my body while only that which is converted remains for the Holy Eucharist.

Extreme converts who are forever making a show of their faith need greater guidance by their spiritual Fathers.

A tell-tale sign that one is an "extreme convert" is when they refuse to come under the rule of a spiritual Father and prefer their own will. Another is to be found in their spiritual history - they will almost always have been members of several faiths before coming to ours.

That is not healthy spiritually - neither for the convert nor for his or her ecclesial community.

That is what I mean by "convert mentality" and nothing more.

I agree with what you said.

Alex

I think we have all seen that. In my mind, though, it's not because they are an extreme convert, but because they haven't converted enough. They like the smells and bells and the polemics, but not the humility. They don't give up the universal priesthood of the believer. They see themselves as the ultimate boss, not the priest. That's the pinnacle of the Protestant (esp. Evangelical Protestant) ethos.

I think one of the first items covered in education programs should be the proper relationship of the parishioner to the priest.

Concerning what is and isn't a "convert," I have a close friend from Central America whose family decided to abandon the Faith while she was a teenager. She refused and was subject to ridicule by her entire family. I think that converts sometimes only see their own sacrifices. It's nice to let them know that the lifers have sacrificed too.

Dear Cizinec,

Well, Glory Hallelujah Brother!

You is right!

You are more right on than a nail in a hitchin' post!

Bless y'a, Big Guy!

Alex

I wonder if this might be a good example of someone with "extreme convert mentality".

Dear Dolly,

Yes, I would definitely say so!

But I can't (and wouldn't dare) speak for Cizinec on this matter!

(That's hilarious! )

Alex (the Man of God, March 17)

Hi everyone

My, my, my, this is an INTERESTING thread...

To me and my experience, the EC is one who comes in screaming HERETIC at something he/she doesn't like. It could be the stained glass windows that our grandparents sacrificed and saved to donate; or the 1920's style ikons on the ikonostas that once again our parents and grandparents saved and sacrificed for or even, GOD-FORBID, the pews in our churches.

Another example of an EC, IMHO, is person who stands in front of an entire congregation and tells them NOT to eat a certain dish that was prepared for a joint parish event because the dish has a teaspoon of "margerine" in it and it's not allowed. This person then proceeds to cover the dish with a brown paper bag and labels it as NOT A FASTING DISH.

Oh, the last example did in fact happen to me and I can give you the name of the Panni who did it; she's Antiochean and in some circles is called "She Who MUST Be Obeyed".

In my parish, we have many converts, men and women who married members of our community. They have been accepted and many of them keep our traditions and customs better than some of "cradle" members.

We have one young man who converted to the Roman Catholic church from the Lutheran church only to fall in love with our Eastern Divine Liturgy. He's there every Sunday, pitches in at all the Festivals and helps with every men's club project. He has yet to utter word one against the ikons, stained glass windows or the pews.

Gee, maybe he's not a REAL convert...

I CERTAINLY HOPE HE IS!!!!

JMHO...

so many eggs, so little time...

mark

Dear Marko,

Now don't get people here started on those pews!

Grrrr . . .

Alex

Yea...about those pews....I will let you know how I feel about them, right after I get done sitting in one while resting my back...

PEWS!!!!! PEWS!!! :rolleyes:

But at least I've never complained about anything else...and if anyone wants to sit in those we have I never say anything against them.

I'd never complain about something we eat at a parish dinner. I would just figure that if anything was wrong with what was set before us Father would have already given us a dispensation for it.

I love our Church.

Dan Lauffer

Dear Dan,

Convert or not, there's still Methodism to your madness!

We were invited to attend a United Methodist church supper for the poor in Florida - and we went.

Very nice people, your former people . . .

Alex

I'm a wannabe easterner, but in reality a Roman Catholic. And speaking in confidence to the Orthodox among us, since I would not be able to say this out loud in front of any of my latin rite family at this point, I am wondering about how one "converts" to Orthodoxy from being a RC. Not the paperwork process, but the inner process. I believe I read on another post today that Archimandite Gregory was formerly a Franciscan. I know other priests, religious, and laypeople have probably made the switch to Orthodoxy. But something bothers me: and the only way I know how to describe it is that good old-fashioned Catholic GUILT. As much as I am enamored with Eastern theologians, icons, liturgies, and other things, I come back to that "I will give to you the keys to the kingdom of heaven" that St. Peter was blessed to hear from Our Lord, and I think, "Oh, no, to leave Catholicism would be to turn from the "True Church." Even though I have a great many misgivings, (I will not go so far as to say doubts, not yet) re: certain dogmatic pronouncements of modern history.

Plus, I see how the Orthodox seem to have more or less kept the faith constant in most churches. That is, no pro-abortion, contraceptive-pushing, women-priest promoting, relativism touting, Christ forgetting nonsense going on among about 50% of most congregations, as is the case in Roman Catholicism, at least here in America.

And the spiritual side of things, well, you can't begin to even think about comparing the riches in East to the guitar Masses here in the USA.

After my ramblings, what I am getting at is this: How does a RC begin to find their way past the RC guilt, to even be able to freely appreciate and learn about Eastern rites without that nagging voice saying (true church, keys to heaven, vicar of christ, etc.)?

It must be a very long process, but one I would love to see the story of in print by one who is theologically trained and metamorphed into an Orthodox from Catholicism. I mean this in all sincerity, and hope I have not offended anyone on either side. But, plainly, I have a divided heart right now, not to speak of my LUNGs. (Smiley face!) Do many converts come to Orthodoxy through the auspices of Byz Catholicism, since it still owes allegiance to the papacy? Is it always a long road? Does the little voice ever go away that says, "you left the true church?"

Tammy

Strangely enough, I was thinking about this discussion last night during pre-sanctified and came to a few conclusions about myself...

I thought perhaps that I had the 'ec' mentality, but I realised that I was the same when I was RC, meaning, I watched and sniffed at how people were doing things, decided that they weren't doing them right...but then I realized that I did the same thing when I was Latin(holding hands during the Lord's Prayer...yechhhh)so I can't pawn my attitude off as 'ec'...when I was a kid I left the Church because I thought people were being hypocrits...when I returned to the Church, I returned realizing that everytime I pointed at a 'hypocrit' three more fingers were pointing back at me, making me three times the hypocrit.

I also remembered something I used to tell my students when I taught the RCIA...I remember explaining that when they sat in the pews they would see a whole range of worship attitudes(for want of a better expression), some who seemed deeply in love with the Lord, some who seemed to take the Church and Her Sacraments for granted, some who seemed to be old-fashioned, others who seemed to follow every change and fad like the wind...I told them that since we could never judge what was in the person's heart, we couldn't ever judge what we could see as far as the externals...shamefully, I never seemed to take my own advice...

Humbly asking for forgiveness for my own faults, and prayers that I might overcome them,

Vie,

Tammy, I'm curious -- are you aware that you can have all those things - Eastern theologians, icons, liturgies and other things - while still remaining in communion with the Pope? If those are your main concerns, you don't really need to "leave Catholicism" -- just switch rites.

While there certainly are too many people claiming to be Catholics and doing those things, they're not doing it with the blessing of the Church. The Pope is definitely not "pro abortion" or any of those other things!

Granted all the caveats posted on "convert mentality"...

Is there also "cradle Byzantine mentality?" (whether the "Byzantine" be Catholic or Orthodox or Orthodox-in-Communion-with-Rome [if you will])

Herb

Herb, there sure is.

It goes like this.

"We only have TWO tones. I grew up in the church and that's all there is and anyone who says differently is a liar."

"We've always had kneelers. I grew up in the church and there are kneelers. Anyone who says we shouldn't have kneelers is an idiot and they don't know what they're talking about."

"We've always said the filioque. I grew up in the church saying the filioque. Anyone who says we shouldn't say it is a heretic."

"Who says we're not supposed to eat meat during Lent? I grew up in the church and my parents were more devout than ANYONE and they made sure they had fish on Friday, but they always ate meat otherwise. Anyone who says differently is a fanatic."

"I've never heard of this Jesus Prayer. I grew up with the Rosary. Anyone who says to pray this Jesus Prayer is a crazy New-Ager."

Yes, I've heard every one of these things said, including the ad hominems.

Hi Cizinec!

Actually, your posting sounded funny to me and I started to laugh. It would be funny too, if it weren't so true!

Michael

Dear Cizinec,

I'll go one better here . . .

We had a sermon preached at us once (sorry, "to us" ) where the priest outlined a number of attitudes that he said were latent "anti-Catholic" attitudes in our Church.

These included the desire of some to stand throughout the Sunday Liturgy and never kneel . . .

The list went worse from there.

And that parish's new pastor said he would never allow the foot-washing ceremony on Holy Thursday because . . . he never saw it done in Galicia when he was growing up . . .

It is better to have the Latinized parishes run by the Basilians and the Redemptorists.

At least, then, when you go into one of these you know what to expect.

Alex

I think there are two kinds of convert mentalities. The first, mentioned in this thread, is the one which has a certain self-righteousness to it. These are the people who are determined to be "more Orthodox than the Orthodox" (or more Catholic than the Pope if you are a Westerner).

They are a pain in the tush!!

Then there are people like me. I was a pain in the tush also. But not so much from criticizing the practices of others. For me, and many others, well.....we are just SO HAPPY to have finally found the REAL DEAL that we just cannot get enough. It's like having been fed cheese and crackers all your life and then being introduced to filet mignon.

We volunteer for everything, and more often than not, like a friendly and well meaning puppy, we make more mistakes than we do things correctly. Singing too loudly, saying the wrong things at the wrong time, goofing up the Liturgy, messing up the choir....oh my....the list goes on and on.

God love those people who patiently put up with us until we finally calm down and settle into the areas the Lord wants us in.

Brother Ed -- still embarrassed as I remember some of my more outstanding gaffs

Eeeeeek

This could well develop into a thread on our most embarrassing mistakes - like me forgetting to arrange Readers for Midnight Mass - oh I organised readers for the Carol Service - but suddenly realised when sitting in the Choir Loft as the 2 Mass Readers did not go up to the Altar the I had made the mother and father of all gaffes -- never repeated that one again :p

Anhelyna - still blushing at that one.

Dear Brother Ed,

An excellent point!

A friend of mine who is now an OCA priest and a convert from Anglicanism first became Orthodox in another jurisdiction that simply didn't appreciate his zeal . . .

He was "pious to a fault" certainly . . .

But he was very eager to organize a Sunday school, bring in more converts and the like.

His priest in confession warned him about not upsetting people in the parish (or the bishop).

The priest actually excommunicated Geoff THREE times in his first two years as an Orthodox Christian (ie. forbidding him to approach Communion for a specified period of time, much like what the Administrator does when he imposes a penalty of non-participation in the forum for a time. . . ).

He finally wound up leaving that jurisdiction for the OCA.

Alex