Thank you Alex, I am sure that's what the Catholic Church would say. But I am hoping that Robert/OrthoMan would tell us what the Orthodox Church believes on this point since he characterized the Old Believers as a "sect."

[But I am hoping that Robert/OrthoMan would tell us what the Orthodox Church believes on this point since he characterized the Old Believers as a "sect."]

The Orthodox Church would say what it always says about non-Orthodox. We know where the fullness of faith abounds in its entirety - The Holy Orthodox Catholic Faith'. As far as other faiths, where God is present or to what degree is up to God alone to judge.

As far as my using the term 'sect', as Alex has pointed out, there are different types of 'Old Believers'. Some of which are 'priestless' as was this particular church which would make them a sect within the 'Old Believer' confession. What's your problem?

OrthodMan

Dear Friends,

There is no problem really . . .

The Orthodox Church has been most accommodating to the Old Believers, even allowing them to canonize their own saints who, during their life-time, condemned certain Nikonian practices the Church still uses.

The Orthodox Church considers the Old Believers as truly "Orthodox" and so the only issue was with the fact of their lack of communion with the Church through the Priesthood etc. and the issue of their excommunication which was rescinded even though the "United Believers" or the parishes with Old Believers in communion with Moscow existed beginning in the nineteenth century.

Alex

Several years ago when Ann Landers (or was it her sis Abby?) proclaimed the Orthodox Church a "sect", many Orthodox acted like she had committed some blasphemy against them. So I just assume that "sect" has some negative connotation.

Are the priestless Old Believers still within the fold of the (Orthodox) Church?

[Several years ago when Ann Landers (or was it her sis Abby?) proclaimed the Orthodox Church a "sect", many Orthodox acted like she had committed some blasphemy against them. So I just assume that "sect" has some negative connotation.]

The Orthodox Catholic Church is about as much a sect as the Roman Catholic or Byzantine Catholic Churches are. Hope that clarifies it for you

[Are the priestless Old Believers still within the fold of the (Orthodox) Church?]

Since there are no priests to serve the Orthodox rituals or administer the Sacraments...what do you think?

OrthoMan

I once visited the Church of the Nativity in Erie Pennsylvania and noticed that their bishop was wearing what looked like one of those small, shoulder-length capes that Roman Catholic bishops wear with the red piping along the edge. Is this the ancient tradition?
If so, then our Latinized bishops, it could be said, are following Old Believer traditions!

Даниил,

I saw those black shoulder capes with red piping too when I saw the поповцы group's magazine from Russia. I have no idea how old or how recent this custom is, but the similarity to traditional Roman Catholic clerical attire is striking. Otherwise they are not only all-Byzantine but as one would expect, old Russian, with low fur-trimmed mitres, as I wrote earlier.

Logically the староверы, both the non-reconciled priested and the priestless, would be considered outside the Orthodox Church even though they hold the Orthodox faith and so OrthoMan's assessment applies — just like with more recent uncanonical groups that use the Byzantine Rite and hold the Orthodox faith (like the recent splinters from the Russian Church: the Kiev Patriarchate and the Suzdal' metropolia). Literally, God only knows if they have grace.

http://oldworldrus.com

Dear Serge,

Yes, and you've put your finger on an important part of Old Believer history.

(I showed my father-in-law your kind words "pa-russky" last night and he was truly grateful - he's going to show them to his parish priest today).

The Old Believers were often accused of following the "Western heresy" in a number of their rituals.

For example, as you know, the Old Believer Rite recites "Lord Have Mercy" or "Alleluia" twice where we sing them three times (in honour of the Two Natures of Christ).

This is also something the Latin Rite does and this was not lost on the Nikonian critics of the Old Rite who tried to see in this a tendency toward Latinization or toward Monophysitism where the Coptic Rite also uses a double Alleluia.

They also make much of the woven and tassled belt that all Old Believers should wear to Church (I have one! I have one!).

Even their priests and bishops wear a liturgical long belt not only with their cassocks, but also under their Phelonion.

Their Sign of the Cross is directed, of course, to the Crucified Christ with the Jesus Prayer being used. Some Nikonian critics also saw a parallel between this and the RC devotion to the Crucifixion.

The Pre-Communion Prayers of the Old Believers end with the command: "Now go to Commune with the Crucified One."

In addition, when some Orthodox churchmen protested the RC definition of the Immaculate Conception in the 19th century, a number of Old Believers came forward to say that "the belief that the Mother of God was sinless and sanctified by the Holy Spirit from the Womb of Her Mother was always the faith of Orthodoxy."

Again, they were called "Latinizers."

But this belief comes not from Latin sources, but from the Orthodox deuterocanonical book about the Birth of Mary (which I happened to be reading last night.)

Alex

Alex, you're welcome.

In addition, when some Orthodox churchmen protested the RC definition of the Immaculate Conception in the 19th century, a number of Old Believers came forward to say that "the belief that the Mother of God was sinless and sanctified by the Holy Spirit from the Womb of Her Mother was always the faith of Orthodoxy."

And in this case the староверы were right. The other stuff is a little suspect, though not formally heretical, since it sounds un-Trinitarian and therefore un-Orthodox.

I'd still like to know how and when they adopted Roman-looking clerical shoulder capes.

http://oldworldrus.com

Dear Serge,

While I don't know when they adopted them, pictures of Old Believers from the eighteenth century immediately following the conflict and persecution depicts them wearing these.

Also, I know I have an old depiction of a "Uniate Priest" from 18th century where he is also wearing such.

I will contact my Old Believer friend from the Bielaya Krinitsa jurisdiction in Kyiv to ask him about this for you and see what he says.

Alex