A few months ago I read something about Mt Angel Abbey in Oregon (A Roman Catholic monestary) serving the Old Believers who lived there. Is this still the case? Are there any Catholic priests who are permitted to celebrate the Old Rite Russian Liturgy? Thank you for any info.

In Christ,

Anthony

Anthony, welcome!

I have heard of this Old Believers-in-union-with-Rome group at Mt Angel Abbey too. I don't think it exists anymore.

Before 1917, when the Catholic Church was encouraging conversions from the Orthodox (it doesn't do that anymore) and some Russian Orthodox on their own were reading their way into Catholic communion, some Old Believers (priest and congregation) did voluntarily AFAIK become Russian Catholics. (As they had no great love for the state Church.) Not only did they keep their ritual, but Metropolitan Andrew, the head of the Ukrainian Catholic Church in L'vov (then part of Poland in the Austro-Hungarian Empire) then supervising the Russian Catholics under Exarch (and secret bishop) Leonty (lay name Leonid) Feodorov (a former regular Russian Orthodox ordained Catholic), had a chapel built in Old Believer style.

It was this community, "the Old Ritualists in communion with the Holy See', that sent the Tsar best wishes in 1905 and got a polite response by letter back from a court secretary. This letter helped the Russian Catholic community in either Moscow or St Petersburg (I forget which) when the police would come round occasionally. The Russian Catholics would flash the imperial stationery and the cops would back off.

So, yes, some Old Believers went full circle in about 250 years, from rejecting the Russian Church as not Orthodox enough to joining up with the Pope.

The main Old Believers still exist in several groups — there are still priestless ones who hold the priesthood is now gone (but in theory still believe in sacraments and have centuries-old reserved Communion to give to people on their deathbeds), who build churches with iconostases flush against the back wall and are led by laymen called наставники (nastavniki) who baptize, marry, bury and lead the hours and Sunday services that are basically the Liturgy stopping after the Gospel. (And commune the dying from the hoarded, dried Holy Gifts? The last priests in these groups consecrated lots of It centuries ago before they died.) Some of these fled into the northern Russian forests where they remained hidden until Soviet surveyors found a group in the 1950s or 1960s — the Old Believers asked who the current Tsar was.

There is an Old Believer Church with clergy in Russia, with their own metropolitan in Moscow. They resemble regular Russian Orthodox but their bishops wear old-style Russian mitres that look like low crowns with fur on the bottom.

Then there is a group that is in the official Russian Church in Russia and one in America that is in ROCOR (Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia), each of which retains the Old Believer ritual. I have the ROCOR one linked to my site on the Slavic page, the Church of the Nativity in Erie, PA. I know someone who grew up in that church back when it was with the priestless. It joined ROCOR about 20 years ago, adding an altar to its church and having its nastavnik ordained a priest. A small group stayed priestless and my acquaintance's uncle is the nastavnik of that group.

I don't know of any current Russian Catholic Old Believer groups.

http://oldworldrus.com

[ 01-14-2002: Message edited by: Serge ]

Serge,

Was not part of the situation also that in 1905, the Russian decree of religious toleration did not allow for a "Uniate" rite of the ROC, so Russian Catholics got around this restriction by sometimes using the 'Old Believers' ritual?

Axios

www.axios.net

Was not part of the situation also that in 1905, the Russian decree of religious toleration did not allow for a "Uniate" rite of the ROC, so Russian Catholics got around this restriction by sometimes using the 'Old Believers' ritual?

Not AFAIK. The ex-Old Believers had their ritual; the ex-regular Russian Orthodox had theirs. By a "Uniate' rite do you mean Old Believers in the official Russian Church (didn't happen until decades later) or the Russian Catholic Church?

Perhaps my date is wrong and the letter was sent to the Tsar before 1905.

http://oldworldrus.com

Dear Serge,

Thank you for your informative post. Would you know if that Old Believer chapel built by the Russian Catholics still stands or did the Communists destroy it? I have also heard that the Ruthenian Church has some similarities in their rituals with the Russian Old Believers. Thanks again!

In Christ,
Anthony

Thank you for your informative post.

You're welcome!

Would you know if that Old Believer chapel built by the Russian Catholics still stands or did the Communists destroy it?

I don't know but imagine it is long gone, destroyed by the Communists, just like the few pre-1917 Russian Catholic centers (house churches and a convent in someone's house).

I have also heard that the Ruthenian Church has some similarities in their rituals with the Russian Old Believers.

Yes! In its original unlatinized form, the 1944 restored version that is now official, and even in the pre-1944 latinized versions used most places today, Ruthenian Catholic usage retains older spellings and wordings just like the Old Believers. "Jesus' is Iсусъ, not Iисусъ like in the Nikonian books used by most Russian Orthodox. Plus the words of the Cherubic Hymn ( Херувимская ) used by поповцы Old Believers and by Ruthenian Catholics are identical: "отвержимъ печаль', not "отложимъ попеченiе'.

http://oldworldrus.com

[ 01-14-2002: Message edited by: Serge ]

Dear Serge,

Now these are the kinds of issues I like to see us discussing!

Yes, the "Bohoroditse Divo" or "Hail Mary" used in the Ruthenian and Ukrainian Catholic Churches are identical to that version used by the Old Believers ending with "Khrysta Spas Izbavytela dush nashykh" or "dusham nashym" in Slavonic.

The "Byelaya Krinitsa" Old Believers are really thriving in Ukraine and Russia.

They have, as you said, their own Metropolitan in Moscow and a jurisdiction in Ukraine where Old Believer cemeteries are now being studied and an Old Believer acquaintance of mine is currently doing a TV documentary about their history.

They have formally canonized their martyrs and saints, including St Avakum the Old Believer who was burned at the stake.

Today is the feast of four Old Believer martyr-saints, one of whom was a Frenchman, a scholar from Paris who converted to Orthodoxy in Russia, receiving the Old Rite before the Nikonian reforms.

These lived in the forests in dire poverty and penance, wearing heavy chains on their bodies (verygy).

When ordered to change to the Nikonian Rite, this French Orthodox Christian said, "I have come to Russia to find the true Church, and having found it, you are now telling me to change to God knows what kind of practices? That I will never do."

They have also canonized St Ambrose, a Greek bishop who converted to the Old Believers in the eighteenth century. More are on the way . . .

A number of Old Believer Churches have opened up in Kamenets-Podilski in Ukraine.

I understand that the Old Believer Sign of the Cross is popular even among non-Old Believer Orthodox.

A Ukrainian woman from Poltava, Orthodox who attends our Church, was crossing herself this way.

I asked her if she was Old Believer, but she said no, but that many in Poltava like that form of the Sign of the Cross.

I see a number of people among our new immigrants using the Old Believer Sign of the Cross, a number of them Catholic.

I doubt whether they are Old Believer Catholics, but Byzantine Catholics who have taken up a popular tradition.

Alex

I have a question:

I am under the impression that Old Believer spirituality is somewhat different than current ROC. If this is the case, does that mean that Ruthenian spirituality is closer to that of the Old Believers? I have been considering using the Old Believer prayer book (largely because of the Slavonic but I also like their devotion) althought I don't know all that much about them. It would seem to me logical from a historical perspective that Ruthenians and Ukranians would be closer to pre-Nikonian Orthodox simpley because of the time line. OF course, I am sure I need correcting.

Dmitri

I am under the impression that Old Believer spirituality is somewhat different than current ROC. ... I have been considering using the Old Believer prayer book (largely because of the Slavonic but I also like their devotion) althought I don't know all that much about them.

You know the joke on my website, on the "Top Ten Signs You Might Be Russian Orthodox' page, that "before you pray, you say a prayer'? Well, Old Believers are like that to the max. As you have their prayer book you probably can see that yourself. They outstrict regular ROCOR. Visit the Church of the Nativity's site linked to my Slavic page (they serve in English, which surprised me) to read details of their practice.

If this is the case, does that mean that Ruthenian spirituality is closer to that of the Old Believers?

Сегодня, нет, owing to centuries of latinization, the most recent being ironically after Vatican II (which called for a recovery of the rite's authentic practices) — Ruthenians cut the Communion fast to one hour, imitating Rome, dropped the Orthodox fasting guidelines, again copying the minimum-legal-requirement Roman rules, and Saturday/holy-day eve Vespers is still unknown in at least several ethnic-Rusyn churches in the Ruthenian metropolia of the US.

It would seem to me logical from a historical perspective that Ruthenians and Ukranians would be closer to pre-Nikonian Orthodox simply because of the time line. Of course, I am sure I need correcting.

True before latinization set in, circa mid- to late 1600s, but not true for a long time.

http://oldworldrus.com

If that is the case, then perhaps it is the Old Believers, more than the current Orthodox that we should look to for a more authentic Ruthenian ethos. Of course, I admit I apprecate the Old Believers uniformity of worship and practice, Although I wouldn't necessarily push the Sign of the Cross difference. I am not advocating alienating the Orthodox any further than we already have. It is simply another stopping point on my road to theosis...

Mir s Toboy,
Dmitri

There is a beautiful Old Believer Church in Erie, Pennsylvania that is under ROCOR (Russian Orthodox Church Abroad). They have a wesite full of beautiful pictures of their parish and it's history, etc. at -

http://www.churchofthenativity.net/

OrthoMan

Дмитрий,

Можно — it is entirely possible. In fact, historically, how could one disagree? Since the Russian Orthodox, both MP and ROCOR, now accept the ways of the староверы as a legitimate option, so the risk of alienating the Orthodox is now gone, then, yes, perhaps Ruthenians should look to the Old Believers as a model.

http://oldworldrus.com

[ 01-15-2002: Message edited by: Serge ]

By the way, regarding the Old Believer website in Erie, Pa. When you access the pictures of the 'old church' before the fire...notice the Iconostasis is right up against the wall. THERE IS NO SANCTUARY BEHIND IT. That was because, before they went under ROCOR, they were a priestless sect.

Orthoman

In other words, practically Uniates, right? Graceless (no sacraments) and using some sort of empty Byzantine ritual.

Can grace persist in a "sect" without a hierarchy or clergy and without the Holy Mysteries (sacraments)?

[ 01-15-2002: Message edited by: RichC ]

Dear RichC,

Yes, but not all Old Believers were priestless i.e. "Bezpopovtsy."

Those who were could not have a sanctuary and their churches were often really "chasovny" or places where the Hours were served by lay elders.

Can Grace persist in such a sect? I think Vatican II would say "yes" but it's up to God really.

The Vyg Community of Priestless Old Believers even went so far as to declare its own Saints, even though they presented them without haloes, believing that the Orthodox Church would come to its senses one day and these could be properly canonized by episcopal authority.

Large numbers of priestless Old Believers have now come into Communion with their canonical jurisdictions in Russia and Roumania (there are more than one).

Elizabeth Pilenko wrote an article before her death criticizing the Old Believers who were bezpopovtsy, accusing them of paying more attention to the letter of the law than to its spirit - I don't know myself.

The Ukrainian saints Dmytry Rostovski and others of the Kyivan tradition were very much opposed to the Old Believers in their writings and St Seraphim of Sarov would often grab an Old Believer at his monastery by the hand and tell him or her to "Make the Sign of the Cross in the Name of the Holy Trinity now!"

It would be wrong to characterize the Old Believer movement as an uneducated, peasant one.

Maximos the Greek, who defended Old Believer traditions, was a learned student of Jerome Savonarola of a Dominican monastery in Florence. Others who even suffered martyrdom for the Old Ritual were not only highly educated Russian aristocrats, but western European converts from Paris and other universities.

Serge is right to say that their rituals are long and involved.

But the Entrance and Departure Bows are a tradition that all citizens of Orthodox Rus' practiced at one time, the belt and shirt they wear was the Sunday uniform of our ancestors as was so much else.

And it could very well have been that people first practiced the two-fingered sign of the Cross as they do, only to be later supplanted by the three fingered Sign within what some historians say was a clerical move to set aside certain practices for themselves alone.

In the RC Church, only the Pope himself blesses in this manner.

From an ethnological point of view, most of their traditions accurately reflect the material and spiritual culture of the Eastern Slavs.

The Nativity Church Old Believer prayer book is excellent and the references from "Son of the Church" on how to pray in Church and at home are a treasure of Slavic Orthodox spirituality that any Eastern Orthodox or Catholic Christian may adapt to their own prayer life with much spiritual benefit!

Alex