www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West NEW CONFLICTS BETWEEN MOSCOW AND KIEV PATRIARCHATES

As a point of trivia (well, maybe not), the UOC-Moscow Patriarchate is by far the dominant Orthodox jurisdiction in the Zakarpatska Oblast (historic Subcarpathian Rus'), while the UOC-KP and UAOC have but a handful of parishes and faithful.

The strong presence of the MP is another legacy of "focused russification" of parts of Zakarpatska Oblast. Many areas are strongly Greek Catholic as well.

Forced Russification? Forced by whom? The Magyars? The Czechs?

If this happened under the Soviet Union, what was it about Zakarpatska Oblast that set it apart from the rest of Ukraine for such special treatment? After all, Uzhhorod is farther away from Russia than any other place in Ukraine, pretty much.

The fractionation was as bad or arguably worse in the 60's when our seminary was full. What is the connection? How would broader unification help the situation?

djs - I have personally answered this question many times, in many threads, on this forum. So, instead I would like to turn it around on you. How will continuing to remain tiny individual churches, with limited resources, help our church to survive?

I think I am going to start a website up on this issue.

Your question: If we were to form one, non natinal-Byzantine church with a Patriarchate which would include all Ukrainian, Rusyn, Belarusyn, Russian, Slovakian, etc. Greek Catholic Church, the power of such a united church, large synod, addressing issues and making decisions that benefit the health and restoration of our traditions, would have enormous potential!

Plus, as one church, we would have the best and brightest of each church sharing resources and knowledge, which to a greater extent than today, would help better identify who we are as , sorry Orthodox guests, Othodox Christians in union with Rome. Individual national differences must be accepted and nurtured, which is in the spirit of Christian diversity and Charity.

The synod in regards to future ecumenical councils effecting the entire world Catholic Church would have a greater voice, more united and resolved on the Byzantine position of certain matters of faith and morals.

Is this ideal? Yes. Is it practical today? No, not yet. Is it possible? Anything's possible, and it certainly is not such an obsurd thing to conjur up that it could never happen?

What or why would you be against such an "idea", "concept"?

ALity

[ 06-06-2002: Message edited by: ALity ]

RESOLUTION 2002/08
The Assembly of Delegates of the Federal Union of European Nationalities in Subotica/Yugoslavia on 9 May 2002 passes the following resolution:

it expresses its concern at the continuing violation of the national rights of the Carpathian Rusins who live in their historic home in Rusinia, since 1946 Trans-Carpathian territory of the Ukraine.

The Assembly of Delegates demands yet again:

� recognition of the national minority of the 'Trans-Carpathian Rusins', an end to obligatory assimilation and the granting equal rights as the other national minorities of the Ukraine have

� contact with the Rusin organisations and members of the Rusin families in other countries be facilitated according to the recommendations made by the General Convention of the European Council on the protection of national minorities

� the results of the census in the Ukraine be publicised, including that of the Trans-Carpathian Rusins, irrespective of the violation of the rights to freedom of national self-determination.

Interesting group. Although I wonder about the authority of such an assembly. Why, becasue they officailly refer to Ukraine, as the Ukraine. Official European agencies, ever sensitive of cultural bigotry, would never make such a mistake.

But, regardless of this, I will accept the points as valid and state that Ukraine should recognize the Carpatho-Rusyns as a seperate ethnic minority, distinct from Ukrainians, for those who wish to be identified as such.

I think part of the problem, or the reason Ruthenian is not taught in public schools in the Transcarpathia Oblast, may lie in the fact that, as you have stated earlier, in this post, there is still to be determined a set codice that is universally acceptable to represent the Rusyn language that all Rusyn's can agree to. Any nationality must have a corresponding language that helps to identify their "nation" as such. This further obscures the "Ruthenian question" Ruthenians have never had a nation, nor a codified language. As much as I know about the Ruthenian Language, which is not alot, it seems to be regional dialects of Old Slovanic. Old Slovanic is an extremely diverse language with different peculiararities in every region it was spoke. In the Kyivan Rusyn region, Old Slovanic was spoken differently from the Old Slovanic spoken in occupied (Magyar) Carpatho- Rus', or Serbia, Muscovy, etc.

Just my thoughts,
ALity

ALity:

I don't have strong opinions on this matter. I don't see it as a panacea, nor do I see it as a threat.

I strongly agree with sharing resources and knowledge. I also suggest that the development of mission churches ought to be done in a coordinated manner. But such activities do not require a unified canonical structure.



I am not enthusiastic on this point. What, exactly, is this "power" and how will it be wielded? A sui juris church might sensibly tend to resist subordination to such power, prefering to exercise its own, particular judgements on authentic traditions, organinc development, and pastoral sensitivity.


Perhaps. And I like your focus on faith and morals rather than on discipline and canon law.

I think that much can gained immediately through better cooperation among particular churches. With patience, we will see where that cooperation leads. Strong efforts to accelerate this process could very inhibit rather than promote cooperation.

Concering the Orthodox jusridictions tending toward MP in Transcarpathia and KP/UAOC in Galicia, here's an interesting link -

www.fas.harvard.edu/~postcomm/ [fas.harvard.edu] papers/2000-01/darden.pdf

- to a paper entitled:
Literacy, Nationalism, and Political Choice: the Origins and Consequences of National Identites in Post-Soviet States.

"Orthodox Jurisdictional Choices" could be included in the title.

To oversimplify: the author argues that the rise literacy provides a means by which ideas of national identity are solidified. The attitude of post-Soviet states toward Mosocow, then, substantially depends on whether wide-spread literacy was achieved before or during their incorporation in the Soviet state.

djs - Continue to exercise localized sui juris jurisdiction all you want...the four seminarians in Pittsburgh will keep dwindling down to zero. Is a stronger, more unified voice for Eastern Catholics of the Kyivan/Cyrillo-Methodian tradition such a bad thing? Access to seminaries, monasteries, theological academies, etc.? Stronger voice for a genuine Eastern spiritual, liturgical, moral and dogmatic patrimony?

No one is being asked to give up anything ehtnically. In the Ukrainian Catholic Church we have eparchies in the U.S., Canada, Argentina, Brasil, France, Germany, England, Australia...right there is a pretty ethnic and linguistic diversity. We don't tell the Argentinians they have to stop being Argentinian to be Ukrainian Catholic! We had a pastor at our parish some years ago from Argentina, Fr. Jose, who told us about divine Liturgies in Spanish and Ukrainian he was celebrating there.

I think that positive collaboration could be made to maximize the efficiency of the existing church resources under a unified Kyivan Patriarchate. It would benefit everyone in the long run and in the big picture give much more canonical autonomy than that currently offered in the metropolitan churches sui juris, who have to rely on Rome for every episcopal nomination and confirmation.

I think we need to start opening the dialogue on some of these issues and consider where our church is and where it needs to go in the future. We must have a vision to work towards to be a church ready to tackle the challenges of the future. ALity, count me in on helping out your website.

Diak:

I think that your suggestion, again, that the fractionization is causally linked to our low number of seminarians is baseless.

With respect to the good that can come from greater cooperation - I concur, as stated in my response to ALity.

I really don't see ethnicity or national boundaries as much of an issue.

Whether we would have more "autonomy" (really, the ability to do things our way) or less, working together or separately, that is the interesting question. It has been asked in the early part of this century in our brotherhoods, among eastern catholics forming parishes and episcopates, and similarly among the Orthodox.

I am optimistic that things have changed and a different outcome can occur now. But it will require patience.

djs - Oversimplified, yes, there are many factors contributing to the vocation problem, even the Latins are having grave problems...but I did get your attention. :p

But baseless NO. In our Ukrainian Catholic Church we are able to form vocations from the U.S., Canada, Australia, New Zealand, France, Germany, Great Britain, Argentina, Brazil...and that is OUTSIDE of Eastern Europe. We are able to do this precisely because of ecclesiological unity. We have joint facilities in Rome, in Canada, in D.C., in L'viv open to any of our seminarians. Religious communities in many different areas. Unity with diversity, what a great concept...

We can continue to form smaller and smaller sui juris jurisdictional fiefdoms, but each will need its own substructures, seminaries, vocations, and each will be far more dependent on Rome for day to day ecclesiological issues precisely because there is no patriarchal structure to assist, guide and provide... Just from a logistical and economic standpoint alone this is really not practical.

For someone outside of all of this, how does seeing Catholics of the same Slavic spiritual, theological, ecclesiological and liturgical heritage wanting distance and independence from each other look? Within the same country? What kind of witness does that give for Christian unity? This isn't about being Ukrainian. This is about long-term, big picture Christian unity that can be possible with a unified Kyivan Patriarchate if we can all mutually put away our provincial baggage. Call me ideologically naive, dreamer, whatever...I just have this Platonic nature to me that tries to see the big picture in everything. Take care and God bless.
Subdeacon Randolph, a sinner

Any Patriarch, bishop, priest or deacon that uses violence, aproves of it or remains silent, about these conflicts cannot be considered a man of God.
To be honest with you, I can't find the words to classify them.(and I know quite a few words)
Lauro

I think I found the words to classify these priests.
They're "watermelon priests". They're green on the outside but red in the inside.
Lauro

djs, sorry I meant to use instead of :p That's the second time today and I am at myself for it. :rolleyes:

Ipreima, their reward will be in the next world, likely with extra liability attached since they had the riassa and the cross on, have the care of souls to provide good example for and were in persona Christi. "Man of God"? They don't act like it, do they?

It's not for us to judge, lest we be judged ourselves, but the witness to Christian charity and love is certainly lacking in these sorts of fellows.