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#98414 - 10/08/99 11:37 PM Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
Anonymous
Unregistered


Glory to Jesus Christ ! I am seeking information of Byzantine Catholics who follow the requests of the Theotokos of Fatima in a manner consonant with Byzantine spirituality. I would greatly appreciate any information on ikons of the Theotokos of Fatima or the Miracle of the Sun, the Ukrainian Chotki, Rosary, or Prayer Rope, Byzantine Catholics who practiced these devotions, any information of this nature, etc. Thank you.

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 10-08-1999).]

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#98415 - 10/11/99 01:44 AM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
spdundas Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/01
Posts: 864
Loc: Wichita


Hello Doulos of Fatima,

You asked some interesting questions.

I have a holy card of Our Lady Theotokos of Fatima. But I can't seem to find it. When I do find it, it might have an address on it and if it does, I'll give it to you on this post. So perhaps you could look for an Ikon of it?

As for private devotions, I don't know much about the Byzantine Spirituality in that. However, I do have some Orthodox friends who pray the Rosary.

You see, the Rosary was given to us by OUR LADY THEOTOKOS through Saint Dominic (if I'm wrong, then through some saint) who happen to be a Roman Rite Catholic. Now, I don't see the Rosary as a "Roman Catholic Prayer," I see it as a prayer give to us ALL by Her.

You see, God doesn't "see" Rites within the Church! You see, the Jesus Prayer is the kind that Byzantine Catholic and Orthodox uses. And guess what? Jesus appeared to a Polish nun, Blessed Faustina in the 1930's. He gave us the "Chaplet of Divine Mercy." Now, that is so much like the Jesus Prayer! Obviously, Jesus (and Our Lady) sees the Church as ONE, not having rites.

So, I guess that means the Rosary isn't for Roman Catholics, it's for ALL Catholics, and even for ALL religions. It's a means of devoting to our God through the mysteries of the Rosary, the contemplation and mediation of the mysteries which would enable us to deepen our faith, to strengthen us because we would relate to those mysteries to help us overcome the daily struggles that the mysteries also faced. It's a beautiful prayer for ALL to use!

My Orthodox friends love it and say it helps them enrich their Byzantine Faith! I know of some Byzantine Catholics who pray it also, and they say it does no way lessen the Byzantine Spirituality but enriches it!

Now, tell me, what do you think, folks who are Byzantine Catholics, of the Rosary? I am curious. If one doesn't like it, that's fine, but please refrain from "Rosary-bashing." The Rosary have been proven to change the world and the courses of history!

spdundas


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#98416 - 10/13/99 01:05 AM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
Anonymous
Unregistered


Glory to Jesus Christ ! Thank you for your response spdundas. Don't kill yourself looking for that holy card. I thought it might be especially appropriate to mention the Theotokos of Fatima since the Feast of the Miracle of the Sun falls on October 13, tomorrow. I find it surprising, given the recent Russian and Russian inpired wars and persecutions of those Slavic Orthodox Churches (Carpatho-Rusyn, Ukrainian, Russian, etc.) in communion with Rome, given the role of the Theotokos in Orthodox Spirituality, and given the deep and vital Eastern mystical tradition, that one hears so little about the Fatima message from Byzantine Catholics. I have tried to do this for myself. I would like to know how other Byzantine Catholics have done so.

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 10-12-1999).]

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 10-12-1999).]

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#98417 - 10/23/99 09:11 PM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
spdundas Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/01
Posts: 864
Loc: Wichita
Doulos of Fatima:

Guess what? I found that holy card I talked about, that have Ikon of Our Lady of Fatima.

It's from the World Apostolate of Fatima

World Apostolate of Fatima
P.O. Box 976
Washington, N.J. 07882-0976

When you write, ask them if they sell any religious articles. Be sure to ask them if they have Icon images.

It's cool looking. Our Lady's robe is white but is of Eastern style with both her hands extended upwards.

I also have seen Icon of Divine Mercy (Jesus with red and white rays out of His Heart.). Pretty cool looking and very attractive I must add.

spdundas

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#98418 - 10/24/99 04:29 AM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
Dragani Offline
Moderator

Registered: 11/05/01
Posts: 273
Loc: Portage, PA
Friends,

I recall reading somewhere that the Fatima message said that Russia would be converted to the Byzantine Church. Does anyone have any sources on this.

Most of my RC friends are under the impression that Russia will become Roman Catholic. I would like to show them some evidence to the contrary. After all, Russia has a glorious Byzantine history... why should it abandon it's God-inspired heritage?

Anthony

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#98419 - 10/24/99 06:29 AM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
DTBrown Offline
Member

Registered: 11/03/01
Posts: 1836
Loc: Oregon
I don't have the particular reference about the conversion of Russia but my impression is the way it was understood by Catholics *at that time* was that Catholics were to pray for the return of Russia to the Catholic faith which would, of course, have meant their becoming Eastern Catholics.

Whether or not that meaning would be required by the actual message given at Fatima I don't know. But that is how it was received by Catholics at that time.

Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

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#98420 - 10/24/99 08:35 PM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
Anonymous
Unregistered


Dear in Christ,

AT the time of the Fatima messages, wasn't Russia in the beginning debacle of Atheistic Communism taking over? Could the prayers for Russia being urged by the Mother of God not have been for the conversion from a materialistic communism to "return" to the faithful patterns of Holy Russia? Why would the already Christian Church of Russia need to convert to anything? This is the problem which the Orthodox Churches in the recently freed former iron curtain countries see as the view of the Western Christians...that they are totally unchurched. The fact is that there usually was always the church there, sometimes catacomb, sometimes open..but always there...and strong. Just witness the outstanding growth of the Church is just little Romania and the opening and building of so many monasteries there.
I believe that the prayers which have bee offered for the "conversion of Russia" have been answered in the miraculous revivication of those Churches of the former Soviet nations.

unworthy servant
+Kyrill

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#98421 - 10/24/99 11:00 PM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
Moose Offline


Administrator

Registered: 10/20/98
Posts: 912
Loc: Frostbite Falls, Minnesota, US...
The Fatima messages fall, of course, among those things which one may choose to accept or reject. I have not spent time studying these messages so I asked a Roman Catholic priest friend who was, at one time, really "into" Fatima and the messages. It seems that the Church understood the messages as a call for prayer for conversion of Russia from communism and atheism to Christ. The structure of the Orthodox Church itself was called to conversion since it was taken over by the communists and used for their purposes. The Orthodox faith itself was never called into question. This distinction, however, was not understood by most people who knew little about Orthodoxy and often times misunderstood the message as a call for the peoples of Russia to convert from Orthodoxy to Roman Catholicism.

Fr. Kyrill touches on something quite important. As the communist structures of Central and Eastern Europe and Northern Asia have fallen away there has indeed been a resurgence of Christianity. But those who profess the Christian faith (be it Orthodox, Greek Catholic or even fundamentalist Protestant) are nowhere near as large as expected. 70+ years of atheism has left its mark as a large percentage of the people don't even understand the idea of faith. The toughest work is still to come. Prayer for the conversion of these people to Christ is still needed - perhaps now more than ever.

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#98422 - 10/24/99 11:54 PM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
spdundas Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/01
Posts: 864
Loc: Wichita
Doulos of Fatima:

Hello! I found a website of a parish called "Our Lady of Fatima Byzantine Russian Catholic Church" which is in San Francisco.

Try to log onto: www.byzantinecatholic.org

And see what happens. I e-mailed to somebody there asking about the background on Byzantine devotion to Fatima. So hopefully I'll hear from them and I'll share it with you if I can. Pretty interesting. I also asked if there's any "Latinization" of this parish (which I certainly hope NOT).

Later,

spdundas

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#98423 - 10/25/99 01:16 AM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
Anonymous
Unregistered


Glory to Jesus Christ ! Thank you to all who have responded. spdundas, yes that card also comes in a larger ikon form availible from the Blue Army for about $4/ikon, a real bargain. I have some familiarity with Our Lady of Fatima parish in San Francisco. The parish was founded in 1956 to meet the needs of the Russian population in the Bay area. It was dedicated on October 13, 1956, the anniversary of the Miracle of the Sun at Fatima in 1917. A Russian iconographer had earlier written an ikon of the Apparition at Fatima. The Jesuits man the parish. In the past there was some Latinization (e.g. several statues relating to Fatima.) The most distinguished of the Jesuit pastors, Fr. Karl Patzelt (1916-1988) was a very holy man. A Czech German, he served in the medical corps of the German Army. He was captured on the Russian Front. While a POW he learned Russian. He also learned how to use suffering in order to become more Christ-like. He came to a deeper understanding of theosis because he lived it. He was much beloved by the faithful as a spiritual father. He used to lead the faithful in praying the Chotki of the Theotokos. He perfomed several exorcisms and the elderly priest in the 1973 film, The Exorcist is based on him. His cause may soon be introduced at Rome for canonization. To be continued.

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 10-24-1999).]

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 10-24-1999).]

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#98424 - 10/25/99 03:24 AM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
Anonymous
Unregistered


Glory to Jesus Christ ! Again, thanks for your responses. Let me now address the issue of the " conversion of Russia." In her 1917 apparitons the Theotokos made it clear that God was much offended by the grave sins of mankind. Should mankind not repent by 1)professing and practicing the Catholic faith and 2) embracing Mary's prescibed devotion to her Immaculate Heart, Russia would serve as God's main instrument to punish the world for its crimes. Russia could only be converted from this path if the pope would consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of the Theotokos. The Theotokos followed her 1917 promise to ask for this consecration with a formal request for this papally led consecration in 1929. Here the Theotokos specified that the pope was to lead the Catholic bishops in a collegial consecration to her Immaculate Heart. Moose puts it very well. The Russian Orthodox Church had become so spiritually desolate that as an organization it had become subservient to the Soviet Regime. The state controlled Orthodox Church could not regenerate Russia. Only the Catholic Church could do this. I have not seen any statement on the conversion of Russia to Roman Catholicism or to Byzantine Catholicism by the seer, Lucia. The diaspora Russian Catholics of the time, however, the disciples of the Russian Catholic philosopher Vladimir Solovyov (1853-1900) and Ukrainian Metr. Andrei Sheptitsky (1865-1944) were quite adamant about retaining their Russian Orthodox identity. The founders of the Russian Catholic Church had as early as 1889 started to look to the See of St. Peter as their only hope to cure a corrupt Orthodox Church. In this they had the support of the See of Peter. They believed and prayed that Russia would be converted to Russian Byzantine Catholicism sometimes called Russian Orthodoxy in communion with Rome. I hope that this answers your question.

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 10-24-1999).]

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 10-25-1999).]

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 10-28-1999).]

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#98425 - 10/25/99 04:07 AM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
Moose Offline


Administrator

Registered: 10/20/98
Posts: 912
Loc: Frostbite Falls, Minnesota, US...
The information provided by Doulos of Fatima is only partially correct. The Catholic Church has never understood the messages of Fatima to mean anything except a call for the conversion of Russia back to Christ. It was never interpreted by the Church as a call for Russia to convert to Catholicism (Roman or Byzantine). Pope John Paul II has publicly acknowledged that he considers the part of the message calling for Russia to convert to Christ as being fulfilled with the fall of communism and the freedom and restoration of the Russian Orthodox Church.

According to the priests I have consulted, the actions of Solovyov and Sheptitsky were not related to Fatima as Doulos seems to indicate (especially since Solovyov died before the supposed apparitions). It should also be made clear that the Catholic Church credits not itself, but Christ for the restoration of the Church in Russia and at no time considered the Russian Orthodox faith or Church to be corrupt.

Finally, it should always be noted that the apparitions at Fatima fall into the category which Catholics may accept as true or reject as false.

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#98426 - 10/26/99 01:21 AM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
Anonymous
Unregistered


Glory to Jesus Christ ! Thank you for your post, Moose. Let me clarify. 1) Regarding the matter of Russian conversion to Roman Catholicsm or conversion to Orthodoxy in communion with Rome, I have never seen any statement by the Theotokos nor of Sr. Lucia, the seer, on this matter. However, the Russian Catholics were quite adamant. The fathers of the Russian Catholic movement, Vladimir Solovyov (1853-1900) and Metr. Andrei Sheptitsky (1865-1944), obtained full support from the Apostolic See so that Russian Orthodox who entered into communion with Rome would not be forced to become Roman Catholics. This is a well documented fact. I t is also well documented that the disciples of Solovyov (Feodorov, Nicholas Tolstoy, Deubner, etc.) despaired of the Russian Orthodox Church regenerating itself. Their solution was to embrace the See of Peter. This view was accepted by Pius XI and Pius XII. 2) Allow me to further clarify regarding the matter of the the See of Peter and Fatima. After the Russian Revolution and Civil War (1917-1921) many Russian exiles were exposed to the message of the Theotokos of Fatima. These Russians began to pray for the conversion of Russia, as the Theotokos had requested. They also petitioned Rome. Finally in 1952, in part due to the prayers, the pilgrimage to Rome and Fatima, and the petition of these Russian Orthodox in communion with Rome, Pope Pius XII did, "dedicate and consecrate all the peoples of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of the Virgin Mother of God...." These pilgrims went on to the Russian Chapel of the Theotokos of Fatima in the Basilica of Our Lady of Fatima in Portugal. Pius XII (1939-1958) did connect the Fatima message to the conversion of Russia to communion with Rome. I hope that this clarification is useful for our discussion.

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 10-25-1999).]

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 10-25-1999).]

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 10-25-1999).]

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#98427 - 10/26/99 05:09 AM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
Anonymous
Unregistered


OK, so is Fatima connected with converting Russia to Catholicism or not?

I have a hard time squaring all this with the Balamand (sp?) declarations which would indicate no such "conversion" is necessary. Is Rome serious about how it says it views the Orthodox or is it acting in a manner contrary to its words? Who's in charge, is it the Pope or the Roman bureaucrats? It's fine to put Fatima in larger context of reconciling with Orthodoxy, but another to insist the Russian Orthodox Church needs to be "converted."

The ultimate lesson is to judge Rome (or anyone for that matter) by its actions rather than its words.

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#98428 - 10/26/99 12:59 PM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
Moose Offline


Administrator

Registered: 10/20/98
Posts: 912
Loc: Frostbite Falls, Minnesota, US...
Doulos is bringing together two separate things into one post and presenting it as if they are closely related. There was movement by some Russian Orthodox Christians towards restoring full ties with Peter. Solovyov and Sheptitsky were closely connected with this movement. But this movement has no direct connection with the apparitions at Fatima - except, of course, that they happened during the same century. There are, unfortunately, plenty of Blue Army people who have put their own slant on the actual events.

Rome has never called for the conversion of Russia (during the communist days and specifically regarding the messages at Fatima) to anything but Christ. In Doulos' last post he indicated that Pope Pius XII called for the conversion of Russia to Catholicism (that is, submission to and entrance into full communion with Rome). This is inaccurate and incomplete. There is no doubt that prayer was called for and offered for the restoration of the communion of Churches (as there still is today) but Rome has never seen or described Fatima as a call for the Russian Orthodox Church to submit to Rome.

It should also be noted that the attitude of the Vatican has changed considerably during this century. Up until the first part of this century the attitude towards Orthodoxy was very much a general call for them to repent their errors and submit to Peter. This attitude was deeply intertwined with the common belief among Roman theologians that the Latin Church alone was the guardian of Catholicism and that all theology needed conforming to Latin theology. This has changed considerably - especially since Vatican II. The Balamand Document, although not official, is another step in Pope John Paul II's efforts towards re-balancing East and West. A further step was just taken this past week at the Synod of European Bishops at which the Synod Fathers applaud the "exchange of gifts" between East and West and the pope called for mutual cooperation between East and West. Another step will be taken in Boston in Nonmember when the Eastern Catholic bishops from the Americas and Australia meet to discuss, among other things, the relationship of Eastern Catholics to Rome, to Orthodoxy and to each other.

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#98429 - 10/26/99 04:10 PM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
spdundas Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/01
Posts: 864
Loc: Wichita
Conversion: It can also mean a change of heart. It doesn't neccessarily mean change of religion or rites.

The Russian Orthodox Church is a victim of scandals, corruptions and infilterations. Of course it would help a lot if the Russian Orthodox Church be united with the Pope, since it would create unity and purity among the Russian Orthodox Church.

But I don't think it's the foundation of Fatima: to convert Orthodoxy to Catholicism. It's just to help Orthodox Church to have more unity among themselves and help purify from all errors and faults which may especially be inflicted upon by the horrible persecution and communism of the former Soviet Union.

The bottom line is the message from Fatima that God will make use of Russia to punish the world if the world does not convert (repent). The world is filled with so many sins. So the bottom line is CONVERSION of heart. Meaning people will return to God by converting bad heart to Christian heart and sincere repentence.

God loves Russian Orthodox Church just as much as the Roman Catholic Church. Perhaps God wants to use unity and purity of Russian Orthodox Church to be a model to all Christian Churches to be united with Peter?

Who knows, but I think it's very dangerous for one to think Fatima calls conversion (rites) of Orthodoxy to Catholicism.

But hey, we can't speculate all that because I think it's all tied down to the Third Secret, which has not yet be revealed. Only God knows the true definition of "Conversion of Russia." We're only humans, we can't know everything!

spdundas

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#98430 - 10/26/99 06:11 PM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
Anonymous
Unregistered


What of the famous "Third prophecy?" I thought it was supposed to be unsealed a while ago. Has anyone given any reason why it's still secret? Have there been any leaks or hints?

Just Curious,

Bill

PS - With regards to the purity of the Russian Orthodox Church. Anyone who is honest will freely admit problems. But it has been little more than a decade since the fall of the Berlin wall and when she could experience any real freedom. Couple that with the fact that all the KGB agents they put in the Church probably couldn't a job outside of the Church and it will probably be a generation or more until the physical structures and the priesthood and hierarchy are fully up to the task ahead of them. Surely there have been times in various locales where the priests, hierarchy et al have been more politics-centered rather than Christ-centered for a span of years under the ultimate control of Rome.

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#98431 - 10/26/99 09:13 PM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
Anonymous
Unregistered


Glory to Jesus Christ ! You raise a shrewd question, Moose. The Blue Army was an American dominated, Roman Catholic movement. It was designed to promote devotion to the Immaculate Heart of the Virgin, as requested at Fatima, and was organized after the Second World War. Was it only Roman Catholic or did Byzantine Catholics (Russians, Ukrainians, Belorussians, Ruthenians, etc.) participate in a manner in keeping with their Eastern traditions ? (e.g. venerating ikons, standing for prayer, etc.) I had always assumed that the Byzantine Catholic devotion to the Theotokos of Fatima and the work of the Blue Army were separate movements. Moose the Moderator suggests otherwise.

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 10-26-1999).]

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 10-26-1999).]

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#98432 - 10/26/99 11:28 PM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
Moose Offline


Administrator

Registered: 10/20/98
Posts: 912
Loc: Frostbite Falls, Minnesota, US...
Fatima played no appreciable part in Russian Catholic activity in the 20's and 30's (it's not mentioned in any of the histories). Much later, some of the smaller Russian Catholic communities in the emigration discovered a usefulness in the Fatima link and, to an extent, exploited it (the Byzantine Chapel in Fatima is one of the results). My understanding is that the level of celebration has, in the past, ranged from Eastern to Western depending on who the celebrants were. According to the priests I talked to, Russian Catholics found the "Russia will be converted to Catholicism" attitude by some highly offensive, even if the Church never sanctioned this idea.

>>I had always assumed that the Byzantine Catholic devotion to the Theotokos of Fatima and the work of the Blue Army were separate movements. Moose suggests otherwise.<<

I've not suggested that. Any devotion by Byzantine Catholics to the Mother of God because of the supposed messages at Fatima were, for the most part, imitation and embracement of what was happening in the local Roman Parish. While the larger part of the laity seemed to assume the call was for Russia to convert to Roman Catholicism, those who knew of the existence of Byzantine Catholics assumed that the call was for Russia to convert to Byzantine Catholicism. While Pope Pius XII certainly called for a restoration of full communion between Orthodoxy and Catholicism, there is no evidence that this has anything to do with Fatima.

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#98433 - 10/27/99 01:17 AM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
Anonymous
Unregistered


Glory to Jesus Christ ! Moose, could you supply further details about 1) Some of the Eastern practices in those Byzantine parishes devoted to the Theotokos of Fatima. Did they venerate her ikon(s)? Pray the Chotki of the Theotokos ? When was that Blue Army Ikon of the Immaculate Heart of the Theotokos written ? I suspect that it was written after 1960. 2)The pilgrimage of Russian Catholic bishops and their faithful to Rome and Fatima to ask Pope Pius XII to consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of the Theotokos. The pope quoted this unilateral consecration in the 1952 letter quoted above. Thank you for your help. Yes it is true that even very Russian priests and their parishoners, as in my parish during the period of Fr. John Ryder, S.J., followed very Latinised practices (e.g. a statue of the Theotokos of Fatima.)

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 10-26-1999).]

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#98434 - 10/27/99 02:16 AM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
Moose Offline


Administrator

Registered: 10/20/98
Posts: 912
Loc: Frostbite Falls, Minnesota, US...
1) The Byzantine parishes with Fatima devotions used the same statues and chaplets (mostly the standard Roman Catholic rosary) as did the Roman Catholics. It was common, but far from universal.

2) I am not aware of the existence of Russian Catholic (Byzantine) bishops anywhere in the world either in the 1950's or even today. Outside the Slavic lands, Byzantine-Russian Catholics fall under the jurisdiction of the local Roman Catholic bishop. Someone more knowledgeable than I will have to do the research. Two priests I have consulted have no knowledge of such a pilgrimage.

Questions for Doulos:

1) Where do you get your terminology? I have heard of statues of the Blessed Virgin but have never heard a Byzantine use the words "Theotokos" and "statue" in the same sentence.

2) Why the interest in Fatima? Most people I know hold no opinion about it's validity or, if they do, they see John Paul's words about Russia being freed and the Church restored so it falls in the realm of history. Why is it important to your study of Byzantine theology?

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#98435 - 10/27/99 03:28 AM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
Anonymous
Unregistered


Glory to Jesus Christ ! Thank you so much for taking this extra time just to help me. I know how difficult and frustrating research can be. I sometimes grumble even though I earn a good hourly wage. I am blessed of course to have this cushy job as a research assistant. I just naturally refer to the Virgin Mary as the Theotokos, as this is how I always address her. I have some biographical information on three Russian bishops. The first was a disciple of Vladimir Solovyov. He was the first Exarch of Russia, Bsp. Leonid Feodorov , confessor (1879-1935) and was consecrated in 1917 by Metr. Andrei Sheptitsky. There were subsequent occupants of the presently vacant Russian exarchate. Outside of Russia there were two others, responsible for Russian Catholics. They had the power of order, but not of jurisdiction: Bsp. Alexander Evreinov (1877-1959) and Bsp. Paul Meletiev, confessor (1886-1962). Bsp Alexander was consecrated at the Russicum in 1936 by another "ritual bishop" the Ukrainian Redemptorist, Nicholas Charnetsky, confessor (1884-1959). Bsp Paul was already the Russian Orthodox bishop of Briansk when he entered into communion with Rome in 1946. The causes of the three confessors are pending. I was devoted to Our Lady of Fatima when I was Roman Catholic. Now that I have become Byzantine Catholic I wish to continue my devotion to the Theotokos of Fatima in a manner consonant with our Eastern tradition. Information of this kind is difficult to obtain, as you can see. I thought it might be of interest to others, also. I must confess I thought I would get a very small responnse.

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 10-26-1999).]

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#98436 - 10/27/99 12:07 PM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
Moose Offline


Administrator

Registered: 10/20/98
Posts: 912
Loc: Frostbite Falls, Minnesota, US...
I see where you are going. There were some Russian bishops in Europe but they had no eparchy (diocese) to rule over and, therefore, little jurisdiction.

I would suspect that their devotion to Fatima (however great or little) was more to support their own efforts rather than a response and embracement of the supposed messages.

>>I was devoted to Our Lady of Fatima when I was Roman Catholic. Now that I have become Byzantine Catholic I wish to continue my devotion to the Theotokos of Fatima in a manner consonant with our Eastern tradition.<<

Since Byzantines with devotion to Our Lady of Fatima never developed Byzantine devotions it seems that you have three paths: 1) Continue the RC approach you were raised with (chaplets, rosary and Fatima statue), 2) Rely on traditional Byzantine devotions to the Mother of God (Akathist, etc.) or 3) Create something new. Since this something that is to be limited to your personal prayer life you have a great amount of freedom. Spend time thinking and praying over and then discuss it with your spiritual director.

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#98437 - 10/27/99 03:54 PM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
Kurt Offline
Member

Registered: 11/05/01
Posts: 460
Loc: USA
Let me add that devotion to Our Lady of Fatima was often a part of our prayer services during Captive Nations Week. As an aside, this was the one event in which the Latin's participated in but in a secondary role with Eastern Catholics and Orthodox taking the primary role and with great unity.

Now that our prayers have been answered and the Church is free, I would hope we could offer periodic thanksgivings for this great blessing.

[This message has been edited by Kurt (edited 10-27-1999).]
_________________________
Martyered Victims of Nicholas Romanov, Pray for us!

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#98438 - 10/28/99 01:00 AM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
Anonymous
Unregistered


Glory to Jesus Christ ! Kurt, I must be a little too young to remember captive nations week. Could you, please, fill me in.

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#98439 - 10/28/99 01:27 AM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
Anonymous
Unregistered


Glory to Jesus Christ ! Let me respond to Bill Mo, Fr Kyrill, and spdundas who have asked about the Russian Orthodox Chucrch. This is a great question. Does the collapse of the Soviet system equate a spiritual revival ? Is there a genuine spiritual revival of Orthodoxy in the former USSR ? How many priests ? Are new churches being built ? How healthy is monastic life ? How many homes have ikon corners ? What is the status of religious education ? Do the laws and way of life of the people indicate a resurgence of Christianity ? For example, in Catholic Poland the renewal of the Church was accompanied by a precipitous decline in the number of abortions, nearly a 75% drop ! Is the same true of Russia or the other republics ? Do we even have access to reliable information ? I do not have the answers to these questions. I am just pondering the meaning of conversion. Is peace simply the absence of war ?

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 10-27-1999).]

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#98440 - 10/28/99 02:55 AM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
Dr John Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/01
Posts: 1394
Loc: Falls Church, Virginia
As I understand it, during the second half of the 19th century, many of the educated and aristrocratic Russians were being heavily influenced by the spiritualist elements that dominated Western culture. As a result of real study and scholarship, many people (both in Russia and in the West) began studying Christian roots, i.e., prior to the Middle Ages. As with the Oxford Movement in England, many Russians became interested in the early Church structures and the role of "Peter". This resulted in many converts in England and the restoration of the "English Catholics" (or "Anglicans") who had been suppressed under the Protestant hegemony.

Similarly, in Russia, this study (along with cultural pressures to be more Western, i.e. French), some Russians did flirt with communion with Rome. This process got undermined by the Russian Revolution. Most of the aristocracy got out of Russia, to Paris (Where else?) and established the "Exile Church". Some Russians did convert to Catholicism of the Russian/Byzantine variety. Rome responded by establishing the Russicum in the hope that priests could be ordained to serve these people and, as a sideline, sneak into Russian to undo the communist stuff.

Some priests did make it into Russia, notably Fr. Walter Csizek, a Jesuit from Pennsylvania. Others were sent to 'serve the exile Russians' in New York (the Russian Center), the Jesuit parish in San Francisco, a house of Jesuits in Paris, and a few others. The reality was: most of these places served as wonderful witnesses to the sufferings of the Christians in Russia, but essentially ALL of the priests and most of the people in these parishes were anything but Russians.

A "Russian" parish was established in Boston in the late 1950's by a Russicum trained priest. Fr. Mowatt celebrated the complete and I mean entire Liturgy, in OCS, and even preached in Russian (and then again in English). Unfortunately, there were three (3) people who understood Russian among the congregation of 20 or so. Most congregants were good, old Boston Irish folks. Father, eventually Archpriest, Mowatt was called to staff the Byzantine Chapel in Fatima. He was replaced by an Italian Jesuit, Fr. Floridi. When Fr. Floridi passed away, the parish was closed. The parish was under the jurisdiciton of the Cardinal-Archbishop of Boston (we worshipped in the basement of St. Vincent's Church-- but it was beautiful). We were visted by Bishop Andrej Katkoff, Ordaining Prelate of the Russians, Titular Bishop of Nauplia [Andreij Naupliskago] for our canonical visitations.

I have to tell you, we NEVER ONCE did or heard anything about Fatima in that Russian parish. There may have been printed materials in the pamphlet rack, along with a lot of other stuff, but that was it. We were in word and in deed a parish that could have been picked up in the steppes of Russia and moved to South Boston. Although Father was involved with the "Blue Army", it never impinged on our liturgical or parish life. We were "Typikon of the Great Church" 100%. (And I'm forever very grateful, because that is where I learned a lot about the Slavic recension of the Byzantine community. And Fr. Mowatt was a great teacher.)

So, my experience of Fatima and the Byzantine Church is quite different from that mentioned elsewhere on this thread. (I find it ironic that --as a result of the Saracen invasion of the Iberian peninsula-- the Mother of God is supposed to have appeared in a town named after the daughter of the Prophet Mohammed. What a kick in the pants.

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#98441 - 10/28/99 04:18 AM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
spdundas Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/01
Posts: 864
Loc: Wichita
Moose,

Of course not many people, including RC, don't have much devotion to Fatima until later in the '30s and especially after WWII. Reasons for that is because the apparitions weren't approved by the Church until mid '20s and the messages were still new at the time.

You said: "Any devotion by Byzantine Catholics to the Mother of God because of the supposed messages at Fatima were, for the most part, imitation and embracement of what was happening in the local Roman Parish."

Hmmm. I am a little offended when you said "...was happening in the local Roman Parish." You used the word "Roman." Yes, you are correct it happened there, but you are kind of saying that Our Lady have favorites? No way! She doesn't favor Roman over Byzantine. She is just Our Lady, Queen of Heaven, Lady Theotokos. She is our Mother, so therefore, She doesn't "see" rites within the Church, same applies to Our Lord.

If Our Lady appears there, then She is OUR Lady, no matter what rite of a parish She appears to. The bottom line is: WE BETTER LISTEN TO HER!!! Why should we turn our heads away just because it happened to a "Roman" parish?

I know She appeared in Ukraine a long time ago. I would listen to Her, even if She appeared to a Russian Catholic (or Orthodox?) Church.

The Rosary is NOT a devotion of "only" ROMAN Catholics, it's a devotion given to ALL by Her. The saints who received a Rosary from Her "happen" to be Roman Catholics, so does that mean it's a RC devotion? No. It's a devotion that was given to us by Her, no matter what rite of a Church we are in. She is ONE AND SAME Lady in Byzantine and Roman Church. She is the same Lady in the Ikon on the Screen and the same Lady who gave us Rosary.

So, let me ask you again...do you really think Our Lady would actually play favorites? Again, no. She love us ALL EQUALLY.

I really believe everything in this entire world at all times are spiritually related. God and demons are among us whether in politics, wars, persecutions, churches, circumstances, etc. etc. etc. We all have a free will, the path we choose, either God or demons will guide us through a particular path.

I agree that Roman Catholics have a big ego and are bigots (maybe due to ignorance) that Orthodoxy would actually convert to "ROMAN" Catholicism (not Byzantine, Melkite, etc.).

We all must be careful with such devotions as Fatima, etc. We MUST NOT INCORPORATE *CULTURE* TO THESE DEVOTIONS. I actually think culture may have played a big part of "sterotyping" devotions to "Roman Devotions" or "Byzantine Devotions." We must not sterotype devotions, especially if it's given by one GOD of ALL nations, creed, age, sex, etc.

I really think it's sad on BOTH sides (RC and BC) to turn heads away from devotions meant for all simply because of the labeling.

We are so blinded by sterotyping and labeling of devotions that we are actually forgetting that these are GIFTS from God and Our Lady. Gifts!!!

It's like 2 children opening presents on Christmas, and the children compare which gifts are better (even if it may be the same gift) and the kids are too busy fighting, rather than realizing how much our parents loves us and wants kids to share their gifts with each other, the kids ought to take a moment and say, "Thank you. We love you too and we will share thing with each other just as Jesus would wanted us to do."

I mean, really, I've got some Orthodox friends who pray the Rosary. Does that make them RC? No. Is praying a Chotki to Theotokos make RC a Byzantine? No. Devotions don't tear down rites, liturgies, etc. I mean, rites and liturgies are way too powerful and meaningful. Devotions is a gift to help us become better Christians and to improve prayer life.

God bless you.

spdundas

P.S. If some of you are familar with "Chaplets of Divine Mercy" which is a devotion GIVEN to us by JESUS through Blessed Faustina of Poland. The Chaplet and the Prayer Rope (Jesus Prayer) of Byzantines are so MUCH ALIKE! See! Our Lord doesn't see rites of the Church. He wants these prayers uttered by ALL. Jesus Prayer and Divine Mercy prayers are the same! (maybe not verbatum).

But really, I want to thank you all folks for sharing your thoughts and feelings on this thread. It's quite educational and it helps me understand more. Thank you all. I appreciate your kindness and compassion and for not bashing any devotions or each other. I really enjoy it because we all are calm and Christian-like in this. God bless.

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#98442 - 10/28/99 12:34 PM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
Moose Offline


Administrator

Registered: 10/20/98
Posts: 912
Loc: Frostbite Falls, Minnesota, US...
>>Hmmm. I am a little offended when you said "...was happening in the local Roman Parish." You used the word "Roman." Yes, you are correct it happened there, but you are kind of saying that Our Lady have favorites?<<

Any devotion by Byzantine Catholics to the Mother of God because of the supposed messages at Fatima were, for the most part, imitation and embracement of what was happening in the local Roman Parish. That is, the devotion spread from the Latin parish to the Byzantine and those in the Byzantine parish used the Latin style of prayer and devotion (rosary, chaplets, statues, etc.) rather than develop their own. When one understands that this was occurring at the height of latinization in the Byzantine Catholic Church (especially here in the U.S.) it is also understandable that they would have taken the Latin forms of devotion without changing them. This does not in any way question the actual devotion of these individuals. It is quite clear that there were Byzantines who were devoted to Our Lady of Fatima. The form of their expression of this devotion, however, seems to have been almost identical to the Latin form.

Regarding the level of devotion to Fatima by Byzantine Catholics I asked an expert on life in the Byzantine Catholic Church in the 30's to the present: my mother. She has no memory of Fatima devotions in her parish at all, but does remember the rosary. The same was echoed by one of our older priests with whom I talked. Fatima "was something the Roman Catholics did", my mother said. I suspect the information I provided earlier in suggesting that this devotion was popular among Byzantines was incorrect. It now seems that, while the use of the rosary itself was very popular in the Byzantine Catholic Churches, devotion to Fatima was far from common.


>>If Our Lady appears there, then She is OUR Lady, no matter what rite of a parish She appears to. The bottom line is: WE BETTER LISTEN TO HER!!! Why should we turn our heads away just because it happened to a "Roman" parish?<<

But this is the whole issue, isn't it? Catholics are free to accept Fatima as true or reject it as false. The issue has nothing to do with which Church one belongs to. Even if individuals embrace Fatima they must respect those who don't.


>>The Rosary is NOT a devotion of "only" ROMAN Catholics, it's a devotion given to ALL by Her. The saints who received a Rosary from Her "happen" to be Roman Catholics, so does that mean it's a RC devotion? <<

Again, Catholics are free to accept or reject the validity of these apparitions. The rosary is certainly a valid personal devotion but I sincerely doubt that the Mother of God intended for Byzantines to discard perfectly good Byzantine practices for perfectly good Latin practices. All this needs to be kept in proper perspective. One must also differentiate between "devotions meant for all" and the wholesale imitation of the spirituality of another Catholic Tradition. Our history shows the great damage to our parishes by wholesale latinization. It is understandable that our bishops and priests are calling for us be faithful in restoring the authentic public prayer of the Church (i.e., Akathist to the Theotokos) while at the same time respecting the private and valid devotions of the faithful (i.e., the Jesus Prayer or the rosary).

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#98443 - 10/28/99 01:36 PM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
Silouan Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/11/01
Posts: 0
Loc: Berryville, Arkansas
Last year as we celebrated the Nativity of Christ the Lord a close friend of mine, a Ukrainian Catholic Hierarch sent me as a gift a beautiful rosary that he said was blessed by the Holy Father. This Hierarch told me that he uses the rosary on a daily basis and derives great profit from it.
A Cistercian Abbot once told me "find what works best for you and go with it". This works well for me.
Regarding the use of the rosary, Fatima statues, etc by Byzantines and Orthodox, does the same apply to "Third Orders" and the scapular? I know that there are Byzantine Catholic Carmelite Nuns in Sugarloaf, PA. So I guess you can be Byzantine and still wear a scapular and have a devotion to Our Lady of Mount Carmel. unworthy Silouan

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#98444 - 10/28/99 03:08 PM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
Kurt Offline
Member

Registered: 11/05/01
Posts: 460
Loc: USA
Doulos,

Captive Nations Week was a presidential proclamtion to remember the sufferings of the people behind the Iron Curtain, which, of course, included 80% of all Byzantine Catholics (Ukraine, Russia, Belarus, Poland, Slovakia, Romania, Armenia, etc.). Many of our churches held prayer services and oither commemorations prayer for their deliverance and of the Church. It would appear the prayers were answered.

I remember a beatiful service in which we had a Living Rosary, with children in folk dress of each Captive Nation, reciting the Hail Mary in their respective national tongue. (The Rosary, by the way, is just a formalization of the EASTERN custom of prayer beads. It is a Hellenization that infected and was adapted by the West as much as anything else. )

On many occassions, the Eastern Orthodox and Armenian Orthodox joined with us in joint Captive Nations services.
_________________________
Martyered Victims of Nicholas Romanov, Pray for us!

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#98445 - 10/28/99 06:54 PM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
Fr. Deacon Lance Offline
Moderator
Member

Registered: 08/29/98
Posts: 4148
Loc: Washington, PA
A word on the Rosary:

While it is a venerable personal devotion suitable for the spiritual benefit of anyone, its proper place as a public devotion is in the Roman Church. The Akathistos is the proper public devotion for the Byzantine Church, and it needs to be fosterd.

Also, the rosary is the product of historical devotional development, not a gift dropped out of heaven by Our Lady. It started in the eleventh century. The peasant laity who could not read the breviary or attend the Hours at church were instructed to substitute Our Fathers for the saying of the psalms. Hence, 150 Our Fathers replaced the 150 psalms and they used beads to count them. They were divided into three sets of fifty just as the Psalter.

Later as Marian devotion increased, the Angelic Salutation from Luke's Gospel was joined to Elizabeths acclamation (forming the Hail Mary) and was substitued for some of the Our Fathers. In the sixteenth century it assumed its present form with mediations on biblical scenes. It was the Dominicans who popularized and spread devotion to the rosary and it is here that the legend of Our Lady giving the rosary to St. Dominic originated.

The current feast of Our Lady of the Rosary on Oct 7 does not celebrate this pious myth, but the victory of the Christain forces over the Turks at the battle of Lepanto. Pope Pius V (a Dominican) attributed this unlikely victory to Our Lady's intercession due to devotion to her rosary.

Lance Weakland
_________________________
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.

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#98446 - 10/28/99 09:02 PM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
Anonymous
Unregistered


Glory to Jesus Christ ! Thank you for your post, Dr. John. An Italian choir member at my parish used to belong to that parish. Perhaps I can get him on to the Byzatine Forum someday and you both can tell us even more about Fr. Floridi. and this Russian parish in Boston.

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 10-28-1999).]

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#98447 - 10/28/99 09:32 PM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
Anonymous
Unregistered


Glory to Jesus Christ ! The Blue Army does own one Byzantine chapel at its Center in Fatima, Portugal. I do not know the age of the chapel. The army sells ikons and small prayer cards of the Immaculate Heart of Mary. The iconographer is Terrance J. Nelson. The image is modeled on the classic early Ukrainian ikon of the Theotokos of the Sign. Christ is replaced by a burning heart surrounded by a ring of thorns. The Virgin's hands are upraised in the orans manner. She is clothed in white and is standing on a cloud. Her eyes seem to follow you. The ikon is entitled " The Apparition of the Mother of God at Fatima." The BA offers another ikon and print of the Virgin in a Carmelite habit floating between the two Carmelite saints: St . John of the Cross and St. Teresa of Avila. The Theotokos is in the Pokrova pose holding a brown veil. Silouan, Fr. Walter Ciszek was involved in the founding of that Carmelite nunnery. They are planning on opening a house in the Ukraine in the Eparchy of Uzhorod. I have learned of a number saintly Byzantine Catholics prayed a prayer rope to the Theotokos: Theodore Romzha of Uzhorod, Bishop-Martyr; Nicholas Charnetsky, CSSR, Bishop-Confessor; and Walter (Vladimir) Ciszek, SJ, Priest-Confessor. Their causes are pending. Fr. Karl Patzelt, SJ of Our Lady of Fatima Parish led the congregation in communal prayer of the Chotki of the Theotokos. I suspect that these others prayed the same and not the Roman Catholic Rosary. Both of the bishops were very Orthodox and promoted Orthopraxis among their flocks.

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 10-28-1999).]

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 10-28-1999).]

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#98448 - 11/01/99 02:40 AM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
Anonymous
Unregistered


Glory to Jesus Christ ! Dr. John, I spoke with my fellow parishoner, Bill, about his days in the Russian Catholic parish in Boston. He joined in the late 60's. He applied to change his rite, from Roman to Byzantine. His ancestors were apparently Italo-Greeks from Calabria ! He was actually already Byzantine. Fr. Alexei Floridi later married Bill and his wife Martha in this little parish. He confirmed most of your observations about Fatima in the parish. He did tell me that your church had an ikon of the Theotokos of Fatima. I would guess that it was probably the patronal iknon of Our Lady of Fatima Russian parish.

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 10-31-1999).]

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 11-01-1999).]

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#98449 - 11/04/99 09:10 PM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
Anonymous
Unregistered


Dr. John,
I thought you'd might like to know that the town of Fatima was not named after the daughter of Mohammed. I too was under that impression until I came across two published sources that stated otherwise. Unfortunately, I do not remember the titles of these books to refer them to you.
The town of Fatima was named after a woman of the Islamic faith who lived in that region of Portugal. She met and married a Christian soldier and converted to Christianity. When she passed away, a town was named after her in her honor. I believe there are other details to this story, but I cannot recall them at this time.
I thought you'd might like to know.:-)

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#98450 - 11/05/99 01:41 AM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
Anonymous
Unregistered


Glory to Jesus Christ ! Thanks for your responses. This has been very helpful to me. I will continue to research some of these questions on my own. Please continue to kep me informed should you come upon new information. I will keep you informed as to how I integrate my devotion to the Theotokos of Fatima into my Byzantine spirituality. O Immaculate Heart of the Theotokos, save us.

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 11-04-1999).]

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 11-05-1999).]

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#98451 - 11/05/99 05:53 AM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
Dr John Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/01
Posts: 1394
Loc: Falls Church, Virginia
Interestingly enough, Doulos, the major "shrine" in our Boston parish was on the left side of the Church, and which was to Our Lady of Kazan (the patroness of the parish). The shrine contained a cross/Golgotha and veils with candles. It was used to commemorate the martyrs of the Communist regime as well as the members of the royal families. (As a Greek, I was always uncomfortable with this liturgical acceptance of political figures. Also, as a democratic non-monarchist and a trade unionist, I have a serious problem with 'divine right' rulers. Hey, they may have been nice people, but I've got a real politcal problem with them. Even the Greeks, the most political of people, have never attempted to 'canonize' the political rulers.)

Although there were lots of wonderful peole affiliated with "Our Lady of Kazan" parish, it was in essence a liturgical and sociological museum. I learned a lot from it, but it had little to do with real Byzantine people. For the few Russians who came, it was an outpost of the Russian faith. For the rest, it was an exercise in understanding the realities of Russian Byzantine Chrisitians. All in all, it was good, but it wasn't a spearhead for Russian Orthodoxy in the US. (By the by, there was/is an OCA parish in Boston. The members there were also a vast mixture of people, both Russians, Byzantine Catholics, and converts. It's continuing, but it isn't growing. It's just too damn Russian to attract converts.)

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#98452 - 11/05/99 09:42 PM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
Anonymous
Unregistered


Glory to Jesus Christ ! Thank you for your post, Dr. John. You raise a very interesting point about the parish not being "a spearhead for Russian Orthodoxy." How does one go about creating and fostering an Orthodox atomosphere ? I would certainly agree that much more is involved than strictly observing the Typikon. I recall a similar comment regarding another Russian Catholic parish. I imagine one needs to be well acquainted with Orthodoxy. This takes time, even years, as Moose keeps saying.

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#98453 - 11/07/99 11:09 PM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
Anonymous
Unregistered


Here is the link to the Blue Army Byzantine Chapel at Fatima, Portugal. It has a high and solid templon. There are no pews ! It appears to be mostly Russian in style. As you can see it is very Orthodox. www.virtual-net.pt/DomusPacis/english/p3e.htm

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 11-07-1999).]

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 11-07-1999).]

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#98454 - 11/08/99 08:12 AM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
Dr John Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/01
Posts: 1394
Loc: Falls Church, Virginia
Dear Doulos, thank you for the post. Like a lot of cradle-Byzantines, there is a dichotomy for us in our understanding of our faith and our membership in a faith community.

I spend a great deal of time reading and studying and participating in spirituality that is derived from the East. At the same time, I recognize that I am a member of a community that observes the same spiritual pathway and practices that I do. While many of the ancillary practices come from the ethnicity of the community, i.e., fasting practices, saints' days observed, music, etc., there should be a harmony among all the folks who follow the Byzantine tradition.

Thus, as a Greek-American, I can worship in a Carpatho-Ruthenian parish without doing major violence to myself. (When I go to the Greek Orthodox Church, I can participate, but since so much is in Greek, I'm kind of an 'outsider' since my Greek, really stinks.)

Unfortunately, some of the older ideas about being "Byzantine" gave equal time to both the liturgico-theologico-spiritual aspects and the sociological-cultural aspects. This meant that folks "pushed" being Russian or Greek or whatever, and in a number of cases, the Gospel seemed to have gotten lost. I think that this also happened among the "Russian" missionaries of the Catholic Church. They felt that by preserving the ethnic traditions without altering a thing, they would have captured the essence of the "Eastern" church.

I remembe as a Jesuit seminarian being questioned/castigated by a "Russian" (rite) Jesuit priest as to "what right do you have to wear the riason?" I told him that my great-uncle had been a monk on the Holy Mountain, my cousin was a police superintendent in Athens, another cousin served on the Greek Supreme Court and that my family's baptismal records in the village dated back to the early 1400s. I then asked this Anglo, "By what right do YOU wear the riason?". His jaw dropped. I was rescued by Fr. Walter Csizek, S.J., who clapped his arm over my shoulder and suggested that we go have a glass of wine.

Here's the problem: the 'natives' (or 'aboriginals' if you will!) don't play the ethnic/native card overtly. We KNOW who are own are; we don't need the externals. The neophytes initially get caught up in the externals-- and they frequently do them very well-- but they miss out on the fact that we see ourselves as a community of like minded individuals, a 'family' if you will.

When the non-Russians were recruited to become priest servants of the exiled Russians (Catholic or Orthodox) they were turned into late 19th century Muscovites; while this might serve external aspects of the faith community, they were not really the true 'ethnics', and the people recognized this. Let's face it: our Byzantine peoples (of whatever ethnicity) have been in America for more than a hundred years, and we are truly hyphenated-Americans. In fact, we are Americans first (Budweiser, Marlboros and 4x4s/SUVs) with an ethnic flavor. When someone tries to recreate 1850 Kiev in suburban Washington/NewYork/Atlanta, the people are going to find it 'interesting', but little else. (I've seen Greek guys bring their dates to Paschal Matins for the candle ceremonies and procession at midnight, and then 30 minutes later, blow out their candles and head to their Camaros to hit the nightclubs to finish out the night before last call. Obviously, it is the spirituality that is bringing them to Church!!!)

My point is: the spirituality of the Byzantine Church is extremely important to those who have taken the time to think about their existence on this earth. For those who haven't a clue about spirituality, the theater of liturgy has somewhat of a hold. For others, it is purely an ethnic eccentricity that they can use as an ornament to their personalities or as a way to impress others.

For us who are committed to the Byzantine pathway to salvation, we have to find a way to deepen our understanding of the pathway, incorporate the pathway into our lives, and yet make accommodations in our communities for those whose spiritual life is extremely shallow--and perhaps even non-existent-- and based solely upon ethnic stuff only. And we have to do this in the overall context of contemporary American life. YIKES! What a challenge.

So when I see men running aroundthe streets in full ecclesiastical high-drag, speaking with quasi-accents, condemning 'modernism' (i.e., electric lights), and anathematizing anyone who doesn't put up with their crap, I think of my grandparents (God rest them) and what they would have thought about all this. As the folks who brought Orthodoxy (Constantinopolitan Christianity) to these shores, they knew where to draw the line, and where changes needed to be made. And they didn't hold on to EVERYTHING because it was necessary for salvation.

Although some folks might find this exasperating: You have to have a life before you can save it. As Americans, we have our American lives. We use the Byzantine pathway to sanctify OUR lives as Americans. Salvation doesn't come from mimicking the old days. Just ask your priest.

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#98455 - 11/10/99 10:07 PM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
Anonymous
Unregistered


Glory to Jesus Christ ! Thank you for your post, Dr. John. You have quite a unique and penetrating perspective on those Russian parishes. This is something one does not get from reading parish histories and old issues of Eastern Churches Quarterly. One does not usually consider how problematic was the whole notion of recruiting foreigners, non-Russians, to serve as priests for Russians. I don't think by any means that Popes Pius XI and saintly Pius XII were wrong to do this. I have every confidence that the Jesuit priests Walter (Vladimir) Ciszek , Wendelin Javorka, Pietro Leoni, Karl Patzelt along with some of the others will be canonized. I would imagine that the survivng Russian parishes bear little resemblance to the ones founded by priests trained at the Russicum. In order to survive they have adapted to their very American surroundings. It might be fun for you to visit one during your next sojourn to New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco, or even the Byelorussian parish in Chicago. You are always welcome to visit our parish in Los Angeles (El Segundo.)

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 11-10-1999).]

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#98456 - 11/10/99 10:50 PM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
Anonymous
Unregistered


Glory to Jesus Christ ! Our Byzantine Seminary Press sells beautiful crystal and pearl Byzantine Rosaries or prayer ropes. The press also sells a little book with instuctions on how to pray the Byzantine Rosary in the Carpatho-Rusyn manner. To order a catalog see the site http://www.byzantines.net/press/

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 11-10-1999).]

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 11-10-1999).]

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#98457 - 11/11/99 04:25 AM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
Tim Offline
Greco-Kat
Member

Registered: 11/03/01
Posts: 215
Loc: VIRGINIA
The vision at Fatima was a purly demonic one. Remember, that the devil comes as an angel of light!

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#98458 - 11/11/99 04:38 AM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
Joe Prokopchak Offline
Member

Registered: 11/03/01
Posts: 155
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA.
I would be very careful in giving credit to satan those things which may come from God.

Joe Prokopchak
archsinner

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#98459 - 11/11/99 06:34 AM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
Tim Offline
Greco-Kat
Member

Registered: 11/03/01
Posts: 215
Loc: VIRGINIA
Exactly which teachings in the Fatima vision are from God?

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#98460 - 11/11/99 05:59 PM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
Joe Prokopchak Offline
Member

Registered: 11/03/01
Posts: 155
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA.
As a result of the messages at Fatima millions of people have turned away from their sins and began praying to God. And you give credit for this to satan? May God have mercy on your soul.

Joe Prokopchak
archsinner

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#98461 - 11/11/99 07:45 PM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
Sharon Mech Offline
Member

Registered: 11/05/01
Posts: 986
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
If Fatima is the work of Satan, then let us all rejoice. The only plausible explanation is that the Theotokos (whom Scripture said would crush the head of the serpent) whacked him upside the head hard enough that he finally came to his senses, and is back on duty for God.

<<sigh>> Would that it indeed were so.
Meantime, unless the world ends on Dec. 31, the Servants of God Francisco and Jacinta Marto are likely to be beatified next year. There will be great rejoicing - but I don't think there will be rejoicing in Hell.


Sharon


Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor & sinner
sharon@cmhc.com

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#98462 - 11/11/99 10:23 PM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
Tim Offline
Greco-Kat
Member

Registered: 11/03/01
Posts: 215
Loc: VIRGINIA
People started praying to God as a result of fatima? Which God are they praying to? The God of the West no doubt, which is a dead God, and not the God of the holy Apostles, Saints and confessors of the Holy Church.

Next you will be saying it is good to be worshipping with pagans in ecumenical brotherly-love. Of course, that is NOT the teaching of the True God and His Church!

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#98463 - 11/12/99 12:28 AM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
Anonymous
Unregistered


Dear in Christ Raeder Timothy

I have written to your privately about your demeanor here on this Forum, seemingly to no avail. I feel that I must now speak openly to you .

You have made it quite obvious that you do not believe in the same way as most of the members of this Forum. I think that most everyone can accept that , and even respect that of you. But it does not seem to be enough for you, unless you actively insult people's beliefs, or them personally. By calling Fatima "demonic", you are slapping people in the face. You certainly can disagree that Fatima is a real apparition, but please do not insult people's beliefs.

If you cannot conduct yourself in a manner conducive to Christian Charity, I would ask that you respect these Forums enough to remove yourself from them. I have hesitated to suggest this since I feel that everyone's understandings and knowledge is valuable here, but unfortunately you have continually acted badly. The other Orthodox on this Forum have asked me to address this with you for some time.

You can certainly take this as a warning. And please understand that in this I am acting solely as the Moderator of this Forum.

the unworthy servant

+Kyrill

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#98464 - 11/12/99 04:29 AM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
Tim Offline
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Registered: 11/03/01
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Hello,

If we, supposedly in the name of love, so as not to trouble our neighbors, are going to keep quiet about their errors and not explain to them that they are on a false path, then this IS NOT LOVE, BUT HATRED! Does he do well who, upon seeing a blind man approaching a precipice, does not tell him about it, so as not to "trouble" him? Is that then love?!

I have been unfair on this thread, only because I have not explained myself. Instead of me just saying that the apparition at Fatima was demonic, I should have explained it so that you may understand. Please forgive me for not showing the 'love' I should have. Now I will show my love for my neighbors!

WHAT WAS FATIMA? Having considered the events at Fatima and the doctrines they present from an Orthodox Christian viewpoint, we now must think about the meaning behind them. From its very beginning, the Christian Church has been opposed by the spirit of the Antichrist, which has tried to distort our understanding of God and His Son so that we would turn from true worship and fall into Satanic delusion. His ways have been varied, but all have had the goal of distracting men from God. The doctrines presented at Fatima have been rejected by the Orthodox Church as perversions of the Faith leading to idolatry and a carnal attitude toward the Christian life and toward salvation.

Fatima is actually part of a sequence of special revelations and appearances over the last 150 years which have tended to reinforce a set of doctrines which the Orthodox Church has always opposed as distorted and, in some cases, tending to exalt the Theotokos into an idolatrous equality with God.

THE REAL MEANING OF FATIMA FOR ORTHODOX CHRISTIANS. Fatima was a particularly powerful attack on the Orthodox Church, since it introduced the subject of the conversion of Russia, thereby appealing to many Russian Orthodox Christians who were distressed by the enslavement of their homeland. But it is absolutely impossible to separate the "prophecies" about Russia from the total context of the visions. The purpose of Fatima was to present and reinforce a number of distinctively Roman Catholic doctrines which are absolutely foreign to the Orthodox Church. If one accepts the whole package of teachings, then one may also accept the prophecies about Russia as being from the Theotokos and one should perform the actions prescribed by the apparition; however, in this case one is no longer an Orthodox Christian. But if one is to be faithful to Orthodoxy and reject the errors introduced at Fatima, then one must also reject the prophecies relating to Russia. What Orthodox Christians cannot do is to select out those parts fo the appearances which they like and disregard or alter the rest to make them seem acceptable to Orthodoxy.

In reaction of many Orthodox to the events at Fatima we see once again a manifestation of a profound error which has been repeated throughout much of Christian history: the confusion of "religious" experiences with Divine revelation. Many visions and prophecies have occurred throughout history is all religions; in some cases the prophecies have come true, the visions have performed miracles and healings. But these prophecies and miracles do not testify to the truth of the doctrines taught in these experiences, since often they come from demonic action. The Scriptures teach us clearly that any prophecy or vision must be evaluated on the basis of the doctrine it teaches, (Deut. 13:1-15)

We must be wary of anyone who claims to speak in the name of God, even if it be a saint or an angel, as the Apostle Paul teaches us, (Gal. 1:8-9).

Similarly, the Holy Fathers teach us to distrust all visions and wonders. Thus, St. Diadochus says, "If light or some fiery form should be seen by one pursuing the spiritual way, he should not on any account accept such a vision; it is an obvious deceit of the enemy. Many indeed have had this experience and , in their ignorance, have turned aside from the way of truth. We ourselves know, however, that so long as we dwell in this corruptible body, 'we are absent from the Lord' (II Cor. 5:6)- that is to say, we know that we cannot visibly see either God Himself or any of His celestial wonders."

Anytime we make emotional "religious experiences" or various signs and wonders the criterion of our faith, we thereby open the floodgates to every sort of delusion. IF this be the standard of our faith, we must acknowledge the validity of any experience from which someone gains a "religious" sensation: the ancient ritual prostitution at pagan temples, the frenzied worship of Bacchus. We can no longer distinguish between God's truth and the devil's errors. But, in fact, all religious experiences must be tested for agreement with the Orthodox Faith before they can be accepted as genuinely from God. The Orthodox Faith is the objective criterion which permits us to separate true experiences of God from delusion of the evil one. All of our religious experiences must be verified by the Faith; the Faith is not proved by them.

Well, I think I have done my rightful duty in explaining alittle about this subject. If anyone would like to further discuss in detail each vision at Fatima, that would be just fine.

Fr. Kyrill is correct is noting that we obviously have differing beliefs about alot of things. I was surprised how much the Byzantine catholics absorbed from Rome. So we are very far apart from one another, but that is what makes it interesting at times. I will do my best to explain in detail in the future. I was doing laundry while watching our children when I popped in and made my 'short' to the point comments. Which really does not edify anyone, not even myself, knowing that I had left open ends.

Again, please forgive me!

Timothy, reader

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#98465 - 11/12/99 11:02 PM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
Anonymous
Unregistered


Glory to Jesus Christ ! You have raised a number of iteresting questions, Timothy. I am unaware of 1)formal response by any Orthodox hierarch or hierarchs. Have any Orthodox bishops used the term "demonic" ? 2)any Orthodox faithful out of communion with Rome accepting some or all of the Fatima apparitions and subsequent apparitions as true. Could you, please, furnish examples.

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 11-12-1999).]

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 11-12-1999).]

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 11-12-1999).]

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#98466 - 11/13/99 12:09 AM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
Tim Offline
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Member

Registered: 11/03/01
Posts: 215
Loc: VIRGINIA
Hello,

You asked if their are any Orthodox, not in communion with Rome (all Orthodox are not in communion with Rome) who have accepted the visions at Fatima. The answer is yes! Many of "world orthodoxy" bishops believe in the visions as well as a priest for the R.O.C.A.

There are articles which have appeared in a column under the title;'ABOUT THE MOST IMPORTANT THING', in Trezvon ( which is a periodical published by Fr. Victor Potopov, R.O.C.A.), a Russian-language magazine for Orthodox children published by Archpriest Victor Potapov. Fr. Victor is the rector of the St. John the Baptist Cathedral in Washington, D.C. and is a prominent clergyman of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia. Basically he believes in them, as the Romans do. I have not heard a word from his bishops, whether or not they are of God or the devil. My bishops believe that they are demonic, as well as other bishops who are the successors to Archbishop Auxentios of blessed memory. But, even if there had been no 'official' position taken, it is clear that the visions where not from God, because of the un-orthodox teachings which were given to the children at Fatima. Example of those things which are contrary to Orthodoxy: 1) Devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, 2)The Rosary, 3) Purgatory, 4)Value of Human Works, 5) Conversion of Russia (which actually, the earliest records says not the conversion of Russia, but of the "world"), 6)Papal Claims, and 7) First Saturdays.

Since these are all contrary to Orthodoxy their is no need for formalities. Our faith has been delivered to us already, either we are Orthodox or something else.

Timothy

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#98467 - 11/13/99 12:54 AM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
Anonymous
Unregistered


Glory to Jesus Christ ! Thank you for your prompt response. It is amazing that an Orthodox Christian could believe Fatima and remain Orthodox ! It is a very Catholic apparition. I can understand Orthodox objections to Catholic dogmas of the faith( e.g. Purgatory and papal primacy.) What are the Orthodox objections to the Marian Rosary, devotions to ikons of the Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart of the Theotokos ?

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#98468 - 11/13/99 03:36 AM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
Tim Offline
Greco-Kat
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Registered: 11/03/01
Posts: 215
Loc: VIRGINIA
Hello,

Please try to be understanding of my post.

The Rosary: In the sixth appearance the apparition calls itself the "Lady of the Rosary." One of the methods recommended repeatedly by the apparition for obtaining world peace is the daily use of the Rosary. Now, the Rosary is a distinctively Roman Catholic devotion, on which is foreign to Orthodox piety. The Rosary consists of fifteen "mysteries," or subjects for meditation, e.g. the Annunciation, the Crucifixion, the Crowning of Mary Queen of Heaven, etc.; while reciting the Hail Mary ten times for each mystery, one is supposed to try to visualize the event commemorated in that mystery. As is true of many Western Christian methods of meditiation, this approach actively encourges the use of the imagination, which the Holy Fathers teach us is a dangerous source of errors and deception: when we start imagining the events in our Lord's life, we inevitably clothe them in our own terms and present them in a way which will be congenial to ourselves; in that way we make ourselves the measure of the events in His life and easily drop those aspects with which we are not comfortable. The Holy fathers teach us, rather, always to be wary of the imagination, learning to control it, not to develop it. Further, the use of the imagination while reciting the words of the Hail Mary means that one is not attending to the words of the prayer. Rather than aiding concentration on the words addressed to GOd and the saints in prayer, this method actually encourages distraction and wandering thoughts by concealing them in the guise of "meditations" on the events of sacred history, as imagined by the person praying. Thus, the Roman Catholic Rosary is quite different in use and intent from the Orthodox prayer-rope, whose purpose is to help the person praying to focus more intently on the words of his prayer and to keep his thoughts from wandering. The Rosary is obviously not acceptable for Orthodox Christians to use, so we must be wary of an apparition which teaches and encourages it.

Timothy, reader

P.S. I will get to the Devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary shortly, I have to pull out my Catholic Encyclopedia first, LOL.

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#98469 - 11/14/99 03:55 AM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
Tim Offline
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Devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.

The primary purpose of the apparition was to encourage devotion to the so-called Immaculate Heart of Mary. In the second appearance, the apparition said, "Jesus wishes to make use of you to make me known and loved. He wants to establish in the world deovion to my Immaculate Heart." This devotional practice is related to the cult of the Sacred Heart of Jesus. In the twelfth century a revolution occurred in the devotional practices of the Roman Church; this revolution was inspired by the preaching of Bernard of Clairveaux and spread widely by Francis of Assisi. As attention was shifted from our redemtion by the Resurrection of the Lord to a focus on the Passion of the Lord, an erotic element was introduced in worship and private devotion. The Lord came to be viewed as a companion, friend, or even husband/lover, as is reflected in the marriage imagery which was introduced into Western monasticism (in taking their vows, nuns went through a sort of wedding ceremony, complete with bridal gowns, wedding rings, etc. with the Lord as the groom). This new devotion stressed the worshipper's individual union with his Mystic Lover, concentrating on the pain of the Lord's suffering and trying to arouse emotional feelings by focusing on His earthly life. Among the manifestations of this new approach to worship are the Feast of the Holy Name, special devotions to the Five Wounds of Christ, the Stations of the Cross, the meditations assigned to the decades of the Rosary, the Christmas "crib" and devotion to the "Baby Jesus" in general, and the cult of the Sacred Heart of Jesus. This later cult focuses on one part of our Lord's physical body and separates the worship of the human nature of Christ from His Divine nature; for this reason it has never found any acceptance in the Orthodox Church, which encourages its children to worship the Lord in His Divine-human unity, not in each of the natures separately. Orthodoxy has also maintained a much more restrained and objective devotional approach to the Lord, trying to avoid sensuality, sentimentality, and emotionalism.

Unfortunately, as the Roman catholic doctrine of Mary has developed in recent centuries, it has tried to parallel every attribute of Christ with one in Mary, going even to the extreme of calling her the Co-Redemptrix of the world and suggesting that she shares in Christ's priesthood in some way. Devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary is one more example of this tendency, paralleling the cult of the Sacred Heart of Jesus. But if the cult of the Sacred Heart is too dangerously overloaded with emotion, sentimentality, and sensuality for it to be acceptable to Orthodoxy, what can we say about an extension of this cult to the Theotokos? The problem here is that Roman Catholicism has lost the orthodox concept of the deification of all of those who participate in GOd's life-creating, sanctifying, and UNCREATED grace. The Church Militant and the Church Triumphant - all, in fact, who are called to be saints and who struggle in the life that is in Christ- participate in Christ's redemptive work. They are "a chosen generation, a priestly kingdom, a holy nation." When the Church's orthodox doctrine of grace, salvation, and deification is forsaken for one which is carnal, erroneous, and distorted, then, inevitable, theological dislocations and aberrations will appear also in regard to the doctrines of the priesthood and redemption. This is especially evident with regard to the position of the Theotokos in the Roman church, where her cultus clearly begins to border on Mariolatry. It is even more objectionable when particular parts of Mary are singled out for particular devotion.

In antiquity, there were two heretical sects - the Antidicomarianites and the Collyridians. The first refused to honor the Theotokos at all and denied her perpetual virginity, the second make her equal to God. Concerning the latter, St. Epiphanius of Cyprus writes that "certain women made small loaves and offered them in [Mary's] name in religious rites performed by women... And in Sikima, the local villagers offer sacrifices in the name of the Maiden [Theotokos]." The Orthodox Church strives ever to preserve the truth, deviating neither to the right nor to the left, but walking on the straight and narrow way which leads to the Kingdom of Heaven. St. Epiphanius writes that both of the extremes reflected in the doctrines and practices of these two aforementioned sects are "the teachings of the demons." "The harm," he writes, "that comes from both of these heresies is equal." We can see that, in regard to the Theotokos, the Protestants tend to reflect the views of the Antidicomarianites, whereas the modern Roman church clearly resemble the Collyridians. Orthodoxy adheres to the middle way, venerating the Theotokos as the holiest of God's creatures and pouring out love for her, but not dishonoring her by falsly exalting her to the status of a goddess. By honoring her purity and holiness and by emulating in our own lives her total obedience to God, we show our true devotion to her.

The Roman churchs tendency to make Mary equal to the Lord is manifested in the second appearance at Fatima, when the apparition promised salvation to all who practice devotion to the Immaculate Heart. It said, "To all those who embrace [devotion to my Immaculate Heart], I promise salvation and their souls will be loved by God as flowers placed by me before His throne... My Immaculate Heart will ever be your refuge and the way that will lead you to God." In the third appearance, the apparition showed the children a vision of hell, and then said, "You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart." In this same appearance, the children were told that there would be peace of people did what the apparition commanded.

One of the most striking statements attributed to the apparition is found in the first appearance. There is a disagreement in the sources that I have found about the wording of this statement, but some versions say that people must suffer as a means of repaying the Immaculate Heart of Mary for their sins and offenses. As presented in these sources, in the first appearance, the apparition said, "Will you suffer to obtain the conversion of sinners, to repair the blashemies, as well as all the offenses committed against the Immaculate Heart of Mary?" In the third appearance, the one in which the conversion of Russia is mentioned, the apparition tells the children, "Sacrifice yourselves for sinners, and say many times, especially whenever you make some sacrifice: O Jesus, it is for love of You, for the conversion of sinners , and in reparation for the sins committed against the Immaculate Heart of Mary." But our sins are not committed against the Theotokos, or her heart; they are committed against God, and it is from Him that we must ask forgiveness. It is before Him that we must repent. Certainly, the Theotokos sorrows when she contemplates our sin and disobedience. In reality, not only the Theotokos, but all the saints -- indeed all creation--"groans and travails" because of mankind's sins. As the prodigal son said, "Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee." But ultimately, God is the One Who has the authority to forgive our sins, for "who can forgive sins, save God alone?" (Mk 2:7). TO say, therefore, that we must make "reparation for the sins committed against the Immaculate Heart of Mary" literally puts her in the place of God, which is to repeat the blasphemy of Satan who wants us to worship the creation, rather that the Creator. Further, in these instances, the apparition is speaking in the language of the late Medieval scholastics, not with the voice of the Scriptures and the Church Fathers. The forgiveness of sins and restoration to sonship which mankind received through the voluntary Passion, Crucifixion, and Resurrection of Christ are not the fruit of a legalistic act demanded by some divine justice; rather, they are a gift freely given as a result of the supreme act of love freely chosen by GOd to redeem us. There is no reparation, no satisfaction--there is nothing that we can do of ourselves to deserve them. This is why our Lord Jesus Christ became man, suffered, died and rose again--to break down the wall between us and God. Nothing we do, no suffering of ours can replace what He did for us. This is precisely why in the Divine Liturgy, the priest exclaims, "Thine own of Thine own do we offer unto Thee, because of all and for all."

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#98470 - 11/14/99 04:20 AM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
DTBrown Offline
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Registered: 11/03/01
Posts: 1836
Loc: Oregon
Tim,

Are these your words or are you taking them from another source? If so, what is it?

Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

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#98471 - 11/14/99 04:34 AM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
Tim Offline
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Posts: 215
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I have a large library here in my home. I used almost every source I could in the short time I had. There is alot more to this subject.

If you came to my house, we coud talk for several hours, while still not cutting through everything.

Every Christian should have their own library.

We even have a 'small' library for our children. My wife has selected many well written books on the lives of saints for children. She beleives that in the early years of childhood they should study the lives of the saints so that they will not get discouraged at what is happening around them in this world.

God bless!

Timothy, reader

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#98472 - 11/15/99 12:08 AM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
Anonymous
Unregistered


Glory to Jesus Christ ! Thank you for all of this research. I was unaware that the Orthodox found the Marian Rosary and the devotions to the Sacred Heart of Jesus and to the Immaculate Heart of the Theotokos contrary to Orthopraxis. Please, at your leisure, post refernces to any written Orthodox evaluations( articles, catechetical materials, etc.) of these devotions. I would appreciate it.

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 11-14-1999).]

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 11-14-1999).]

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#98473 - 11/15/99 02:00 PM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
Anonymous
Unregistered


Dear Tim,

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Do you really think it is fair to take the abuses of one tradition as representative of the whole of it? It is an old polemical trick: take the worst of someone else's tradition and compare it with the best of my own. We can all play that game, but who really wins?

In Christ
unworthy monk Maximos

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#98474 - 11/15/99 05:31 PM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
Tim Offline
Greco-Kat
Member

Registered: 11/03/01
Posts: 215
Loc: VIRGINIA
It's not about who wins or loses. Your views are just as good as mine, right? That is one of the things that makes this forum so nice to come to. Even with those whom you are in communion with, may have differing opinions.

If what I had written makes sense to you then great! If not, thats okay. I dont expect to have everyone accept or even listen to what I have to say.

I think this is one of many good subjects that should be addressed.

You know, there is more of these visions that I have not said. What about the first Saturdays? Is that something which you agree with? If so, why?

Timothy, reader

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#98475 - 11/15/99 06:59 PM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
Anonymous
Unregistered


Well, Reader Timothy,

You call yourself Orthodox but you argue like a Protestant.

I am by no means going to try to engage the multitude of misunderstandings and misrepresentations in your writings; that would be a project of a lifetime. Rather, I bid the forum readers simply to compare Reader Timothy's harangue against the Catholic view of the Theotokos with the Eastern view, as presented in the Akathist hymn:

"Rejoice, thou through whom the curse will cease!"...

"Rejoice, thou through whom creation is renewed!"...

"Rejoice, thou through whom we worship the Creator!"...

"Rejoice, bridge that conveyest us from earth to heaven!"...

"Rejoice, propitiation of all the world!"...

"Rejoice, opening of the gates of paradise!"...

"Rejoice, uplifting of men!"
"Rejoice, downfall of demons!"
"Rejoice, thou who didst trample down the dominion of delusion!"...

"Rejoice, pillar of fire that guidest those in darkness!"...

"Rejoice, forgiveness of many sins!"...

"Rejoice, thou through whom transgression hath been absolved!"...

"Rejoice, gate of salvation!"...

"Rejoice, thou who blottest out the stain of sin!"...
"Rejoice, laver that washest the conscience clean!"...

"Rejoice, salvation of my soul!"...


May we all grow in grace and holiness through the intercession of the Most Holy Theotokos.

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#98476 - 11/15/99 07:31 PM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
Tim Offline
Greco-Kat
Member

Registered: 11/03/01
Posts: 215
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AMEN!

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#98477 - 11/16/99 04:04 AM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
Anonymous
Unregistered


Glory to Jesus Christ ! Thank you for your input, Vincent and Br. Maximos. I will have to take a closer look at the Akathist of the Theotokos. Could this, perhaps, serve as the topic of a future thread ?

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#98478 - 11/16/99 04:41 AM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
Anonymous
Unregistered


Just to clarify, I love the Akathist to the Theotokos and pray it regularly. I'm just saying that its attributions to the Theotokos are some of the strongest found anywhere and most Protestants, for instance, would find all their worst fears about "Popish Mariolotry" confirmed in reading such a hymn. But it's not "Romish", it's Eastern.

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#98479 - 11/17/99 02:39 AM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
Anonymous
Unregistered


Glory to Jesus Christ ! I will again express my gratitude for all of your input. So far I have come up with the following. A) I have learned of at least one Byzantine Catholic parish, Our Lady of Fatima Russian Parish in San Francisco. The Blue Army maintains a Byzantine chapel in Portugal. It does not currently function as a parish. B) There are two ikons for use for the Fatima cultus. One is a Russian ikon of the Fatima apparition. It was probably written during the 1950's. Another is a Blue Army ikon of the Immaculate Heart. C) In 1951 Bsp. Paul Meletiev of Briansk led a Russian pilgrimage to Fatima. The Russians asked Pope Pius XII for a unilateral papal consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. D) Saintly Pius XII responded on July 7, 1952 with Sacro Vergente Anno, a papal consecration of Russia to the Immaculte Heart of Mary. The pope had consecrated the world, with an obvious allusion to Russia, to the Immaculate Heart in October 1942. E)There is a form of the Marian Rosary developed by Byzantine Catholics during the 19th century. This Chotki was prayed by several Byzantine Catholic saints whose causes are pending. This Chotki or Rosary was also used by Orthodox in communion with Rome who were praying to the Immaculate Heart of the Theotokos. F)There are two Byzantine Catholic confessors, causes pending, who were devoted to the Theotokos of Fatima. There is a distinctly Byzantine Catholic tradition of devotion to the Theotokos of Fatima. They prayed the Chotki not the Dominican Rosary. They also prayed the prayers revealed at Fatima. They venerated ikons in their ikon corners and in their churches rather than statues. They stood and made metany and prostrations. They did not kneel. These Orthodox Christians in communion with Rome responded to the call of the Theotokos to conversion and repentance in a manner recalling the responses of the Eastern Fathers. They sought theosis by approaching Christ through His Mother. In addition to daily prayer they fasted, gave alms and made sacrifices in reparation for sins, for the metanoia of sinners, and to avert further Divine chastisement. They practised Five First Saturday Reparatory Communion in order to atone for blasphemies against the Immaculate Heart of Mary. They prayed for the Holy Father that he might lead all of the Catholic bishops in a collegial consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart. This Byzantine Catholic tradition is consonant with Orthodoxy. I believe that this consecration will return the most of the Orthodox Churches to communion with the See of St. Peter.

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 11-16-1999).]

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 11-16-1999).]

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 11-16-1999).]

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 11-17-1999).]

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#98480 - 12/05/99 12:19 AM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
Anonymous
Unregistered


Glory to Jesus Christ ! Here is a Chotki of the Theotokos or Byzantine Rosary prayed by Byzantine Catholics. I think it goes back to 19th century Ukrainian Byzantine Catholics. It is prayed in the traditional Byzantine manner. One stands facing the East and makes a poklony (sign of the cross followed by a deep bow, right hand touching the ground) at any invocation of the Trinity. The Our Father always concludes with the doxology. Use the Byzantine Hail Mary, also called Angelic Salutation I, found in "The Byzantine Book of Prayer." Begin with usual Byzantine introductory prayers as found in "The Byzantine Book of Prayer," 1995, 2nd ed., pp. 7-12. After the introductory prayers profess the Nicene Creed, while holding the cross. Next, holding the first bead pray the Our Father, the Hymn of the Incarnation (O only-begotten Son, etc.), and the "It is truly proper to glorify you, etc." On each of the next three beads pray one Byzantine Hail Mary (Hail Mother of God, Virgin Mary, etc.) On the first bead pray to the Mother of God as daughter of God the Father for an increase of Faith. On the second bead pray to the Mother of God as Mother of God the Son for an increase in Hope. Finally, on the third bead pray to the Mother of God as spouse of the Holy Spirit for an increase in Love. After praying the three Byzantine Hail Marys, conclude with the Glory be to the Father, etc., the Fatima Decade Prayer, and the Jesus Prayer. One may then proceed to pray 5, 10, or 15 decades. Monks usually prayed 15 decades per day ! Meditate on one Mystery per decade. A decade consists of meditation on a Mystery while praying, one Our Father, ten Byzantine Hail Marys, one Glory be to the Father, etc., one Fatima Decade Prayer, and one Jesus Prayer. After the last decade desired one then concludes the Chotki of the Theotokos with the prayer, " We hasten to your patronage, O Virgin Mother of God, etc." I hope that other Orthodox in communion with Rome will find some use for this form of prayer. O Theotokos, conceived without sin, save us.

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 12-04-1999).]

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 12-06-1999).]

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#98481 - 12/05/99 01:25 AM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
The young fogey Offline
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Registered: 11/03/01
Posts: 1197
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Great thread! Also saw it on byzantines.net. My only objection (forgive me if it's been covered already) is the characterization of the Russian Orthodox Church at the time of Soloviev as corrupt because it wasn't under the Pope. Even if one accepts the papal claims, one need not calumniate the other church to prove one's point; besides, Catholicism teaches that reestablishing communion (corporate reunion as Churches) - not individual conversions - is the way to go with the Orthodox. Badmouthing the other church only sets this back.

How could the Church that produced so many saints, thriving monasteries and a living tradition of eldership (Optina, Solovki) - the Russian Orthodox Church that about 70 years later produced the prophetic convert Fr Seraphim Rose - be decadent?

Fatima condemned Communism, not Russian Orthodoxy.

Perhaps the early Russian Catholics - who approached Rome on their own and not because of outside interference - didn't reject what was good and holy in Orthodoxy (otherwise why would many of them want to keep their rite?) but rather became convinced of the papal claims themselves and thus saw approaching Rome as necessary for them, since they came to their understanding.

Glad to read that Fr Alexander (?) Potapov of ROCOR believes in Fatima.

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#98482 - 12/05/99 02:00 AM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
The young fogey Offline
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Posts: 1197
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Dear Dr John,

Thanks for the social history.

>So when I see men running around the streets in full ecclesiastical high-drag

I resent one's equating a sacramental like a priest's cassock/monk's habit (beard, klobuk, chotki, etc.) to transvestite/homosexual garb/games.

You made several good points (electric lights? vespers instead of all-night vigil? No problem!), but the thing is 19th-century Moscow and Kiev were onto something that American culture either has lost or never had to begin with (as it was founded on the sequential errors of Protestantism and English Enlightment deism).

Plus, Orthodoxy today (and here I include Eastern Catholics) is largely about resisting the secular world. What better witness... apostolate... than an Orthodox priest in cassock out on the street... or a church that's open on a Saturday night for vespers/vigil on the edge of a ghetto (the Russian Orthodox churches in Philadelphia) or a 'bohemian' fringe neighborhood (St Michael's Russian Catholic Church in SoHo, NYC)?

Sorry, but the term 'faith community' sends up a red flag ... sounds too much like liberal 'AmChurch' cant. If one means 'parish' or 'church' or 'congregation', say so! Please, no 'new church' jargon, especially in the East.

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#98483 - 12/06/99 11:33 PM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
Anonymous
Unregistered


Glory to Jesus Christ ! Welcome to the Byzantine Forum, Rusnak. Perhaps a better characterization of Solovyov's views along with the views of some of his "disciples" would be to say that the corruption that these men saw in the Russian Orthodox Church caused them to ask questions about the history of the Russian Church. One of several answers was that the Russian Orthodox Church along with the Orthodox communion of churches had greatly suffered due to a millenium of separation from Rome. They sought to repair that separation. Many critics of the Russian Orthodox Church responded in other ways. Josef Stalin lost his faith and became a Marxist atheist. Leon Tolstoy invented a unique form of Christianity. A number of Russian Orthodox hierarchs got along quite well with the Russian Catholic community, including Tikhon, Patriarch of Moscow. It is true that it is the current policy of Rome to favor corporate reunion. This can change. Ecumenism is a policy and is malleable. Rome could once more adopt a policy of "uniatism."

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 12-06-1999).]

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#98484 - 12/07/99 02:36 AM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
The young fogey Offline
Member

Registered: 11/03/01
Posts: 1197
Loc: Private
Glory forever! Thank you, Doulos. Sounds like your heart is in the right place as you endeavor to be 'the other lung' of traditionalism in the Catholic Church: 'Orthodox in communion with Rome'. Soloviev may have been disillusioned by corruption he saw somewhere among the Russian Orthodox. But... Martin Luther saw corruption too... among hierarchs... yet surely he wasn't right in his conclusions. So corruption among the sinful members - including hierarchs - of a Church don't invalidate that Church.

I hope Rome doesn't go back to uniatism as a means since it would set back the cause of reunion. Dealing fair and square, and respectfully, with the Orthodox is the only way to go, even if that's not always returned.

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#98485 - 12/08/99 04:12 AM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
Dr John Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/01
Posts: 1394
Loc: Falls Church, Virginia
Brother Rusnak, thanks for your post. My main point is that for us from traditionally Byzantine households (and ethnic backgrounds), we are just ordinary people, doing our best to live out the Gospel in the ways that were handed down to us. We pray in a certain way because that's what we learned from our grandparents and parents. It's 'natural'. Our communities have changed some things due to the fact that we live in a different century and different (pluralist) country. Our clergy wear black suits and the (Anglican invented) so-called "Roman Collars". We pray in American English and not in Greek and Old Slavonic since many of us don't really think in those languages any more.

What yanks my chain is when outsiders "discover" us, attach themselves to our communities and try to force us to be "true to our traditions", by which they mean anything that makes us stand out in a crowd. There is nothing sacred about a cassock or a kamilavka. They're items of clothing, not sacramentals. And there's nothing sacred about Greek or Slavonic.

Our primary responsibility is to follow Christ's commandments of love of God and love of neighbor, and to preach that Gospel to those who have not heard it. It means that we have to be models of the Gospel as lived in today's world -- not living relics of what our ancestors did. The prayer life, the sacramental life, the community life are all primary ways of witnessing to our belief in Christ. Not our clothes.

PS I use the term 'faith community' to describe organized groups of believers, not to insinuate some post-modern Neo-Papist/Anti-Papist whatever. The term "church" has waaaaay too many different meanings. And the Latin-derived terms "sects" and "cults" have connotations that I don't intend. Hence,.....faith community.

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#98486 - 12/09/99 05:04 AM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
The young fogey Offline
Member

Registered: 11/03/01
Posts: 1197
Loc: Private
Dr John,

You're welcome. I respectfully disagree - such garb is a sacramental. The approach 'externals don't matter' seems un-Eastern and kind of 'spirit of Vatican II'.

Your point about 'ethnics' reactions to enthused 'newbies' reminds me of a thread on byzantines.net (was it you who wrote this?) about the new daughter-in-law at the family holiday dinner enthusing about every detail, every custom, till it gets tiresome after about the 100th compliment. :^)

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#98487 - 12/10/99 12:34 AM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
Anonymous
Unregistered


Tim et al.:

Please remember that this is a BYZANTINE CATHOLIC bulletin board, NOT a BB for the HOCNA, ROCOR, OCA, or any other EO body.

I for one am getting really tired of all the EO polemics on this board.

-D-

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#98488 - 12/10/99 10:35 PM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
The young fogey Offline
Member

Registered: 11/03/01
Posts: 1197
Loc: Private
Dunedain,

I'd be interested in hearing more about your time in HOCNA/ROCOR in the mid-'80s if you like.

ROCOR and its writers have been of great help to me, esp. Fr Seraphim Rose, and its preservation of Russian Orthodox customs and the Russian version of the Byzantine rite are exemplary: witness the vitality of monasticism in ROCOR. (I also think the Tsar and his family are saints.) However, like you I pause at the claim that they and they alone are the whole enchilada, Church-wise. I have no time for much of what passes as post-Vatican II Catholicism but Catholicity (universality) may encompass the traditionalists in the Latin Church as well as the East.

You can e-mail me if you prefer.

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#98489 - 12/11/99 12:07 AM Re: Fatima and the Byzantine Churches
Anonymous
Unregistered


Dear Dunedain,
You are confused and ignorant of Orthodoxy. You should be sick of Catholic polemics rather than from Orthodoxy. Just because you had a bad experience with some Russian jurisdiction conflict does not represent the universality found in and of Orthodoxy. Betraying Orthodoxy for Byzantine Catholicism does not lessen or solve the problems of disunity but rather widens the gap between them. Unity is not found in one bishop as it is believed by you to be in Rome. True unity is based upon truth and justice as known in Orthodoxy regardless of the injustices of the sinful adherents. It is quite unfortunate you did not seek counsel while you were in Orthodoxy or perhaps speak to other Orthodox bishops. Did you walk away from the problem you faced while in Orthodoxy as a Protestant would do? Did you come to Catholicism because you thought it was problem-free and that the Pope "would set you free"? This is what I call a blind communion and regretable act. If you do not like where your at you pick up and go elsewhere relates to an unfortunate mindset. Maybe I am wrong and you can explain yourself as to what happened.

In Christ,
Robert Sweiss

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