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Glory to Jesus Christ ! I am seeking information of Byzantine Catholics who follow the requests of the Theotokos of Fatima in a manner consonant with Byzantine spirituality. I would greatly appreciate any information on ikons of the Theotokos of Fatima or the Miracle of the Sun, the Ukrainian Chotki, Rosary, or Prayer Rope, Byzantine Catholics who practiced these devotions, any information of this nature, etc. Thank you.

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 10-08-1999).]

Hello Doulos of Fatima,

You asked some interesting questions.

I have a holy card of Our Lady Theotokos of Fatima. But I can't seem to find it. When I do find it, it might have an address on it and if it does, I'll give it to you on this post. So perhaps you could look for an Ikon of it?

As for private devotions, I don't know much about the Byzantine Spirituality in that. However, I do have some Orthodox friends who pray the Rosary.

You see, the Rosary was given to us by OUR LADY THEOTOKOS through Saint Dominic (if I'm wrong, then through some saint) who happen to be a Roman Rite Catholic. Now, I don't see the Rosary as a "Roman Catholic Prayer," I see it as a prayer give to us ALL by Her.

You see, God doesn't "see" Rites within the Church! You see, the Jesus Prayer is the kind that Byzantine Catholic and Orthodox uses. And guess what? Jesus appeared to a Polish nun, Blessed Faustina in the 1930's. He gave us the "Chaplet of Divine Mercy." Now, that is so much like the Jesus Prayer! Obviously, Jesus (and Our Lady) sees the Church as ONE, not having rites.

So, I guess that means the Rosary isn't for Roman Catholics, it's for ALL Catholics, and even for ALL religions. It's a means of devoting to our God through the mysteries of the Rosary, the contemplation and mediation of the mysteries which would enable us to deepen our faith, to strengthen us because we would relate to those mysteries to help us overcome the daily struggles that the mysteries also faced. It's a beautiful prayer for ALL to use!

My Orthodox friends love it and say it helps them enrich their Byzantine Faith! I know of some Byzantine Catholics who pray it also, and they say it does no way lessen the Byzantine Spirituality but enriches it!

Now, tell me, what do you think, folks who are Byzantine Catholics, of the Rosary? I am curious. If one doesn't like it, that's fine, but please refrain from "Rosary-bashing." The Rosary have been proven to change the world and the courses of history!

spdundas

Glory to Jesus Christ ! Thank you for your response spdundas. Don't kill yourself looking for that holy card. I thought it might be especially appropriate to mention the Theotokos of Fatima since the Feast of the Miracle of the Sun falls on October 13, tomorrow. I find it surprising, given the recent Russian and Russian inpired wars and persecutions of those Slavic Orthodox Churches (Carpatho-Rusyn, Ukrainian, Russian, etc.) in communion with Rome, given the role of the Theotokos in Orthodox Spirituality, and given the deep and vital Eastern mystical tradition, that one hears so little about the Fatima message from Byzantine Catholics. I have tried to do this for myself. I would like to know how other Byzantine Catholics have done so.

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 10-12-1999).]

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 10-12-1999).]

Doulos of Fatima:

Guess what? I found that holy card I talked about, that have Ikon of Our Lady of Fatima.

It's from the World Apostolate of Fatima

World Apostolate of Fatima
P.O. Box 976
Washington, N.J. 07882-0976

When you write, ask them if they sell any religious articles. Be sure to ask them if they have Icon images.

It's cool looking. Our Lady's robe is white but is of Eastern style with both her hands extended upwards.

I also have seen Icon of Divine Mercy (Jesus with red and white rays out of His Heart.). Pretty cool looking and very attractive I must add.

spdundas

Friends,

I recall reading somewhere that the Fatima message said that Russia would be converted to the Byzantine Church. Does anyone have any sources on this.

Most of my RC friends are under the impression that Russia will become Roman Catholic. I would like to show them some evidence to the contrary. After all, Russia has a glorious Byzantine history... why should it abandon it's God-inspired heritage?

Anthony

I don't have the particular reference about the conversion of Russia but my impression is the way it was understood by Catholics *at that time* was that Catholics were to pray for the return of Russia to the Catholic faith which would, of course, have meant their becoming Eastern Catholics.

Whether or not that meaning would be required by the actual message given at Fatima I don't know. But that is how it was received by Catholics at that time.

Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

Dear in Christ,

AT the time of the Fatima messages, wasn't Russia in the beginning debacle of Atheistic Communism taking over? Could the prayers for Russia being urged by the Mother of God not have been for the conversion from a materialistic communism to "return" to the faithful patterns of Holy Russia? Why would the already Christian Church of Russia need to convert to anything? This is the problem which the Orthodox Churches in the recently freed former iron curtain countries see as the view of the Western Christians...that they are totally unchurched. The fact is that there usually was always the church there, sometimes catacomb, sometimes open..but always there...and strong. Just witness the outstanding growth of the Church is just little Romania and the opening and building of so many monasteries there.
I believe that the prayers which have bee offered for the "conversion of Russia" have been answered in the miraculous revivication of those Churches of the former Soviet nations.

unworthy servant
+Kyrill

The Fatima messages fall, of course, among those things which one may choose to accept or reject. I have not spent time studying these messages so I asked a Roman Catholic priest friend who was, at one time, really "into" Fatima and the messages. It seems that the Church understood the messages as a call for prayer for conversion of Russia from communism and atheism to Christ. The structure of the Orthodox Church itself was called to conversion since it was taken over by the communists and used for their purposes. The Orthodox faith itself was never called into question. This distinction, however, was not understood by most people who knew little about Orthodoxy and often times misunderstood the message as a call for the peoples of Russia to convert from Orthodoxy to Roman Catholicism.

Fr. Kyrill touches on something quite important. As the communist structures of Central and Eastern Europe and Northern Asia have fallen away there has indeed been a resurgence of Christianity. But those who profess the Christian faith (be it Orthodox, Greek Catholic or even fundamentalist Protestant) are nowhere near as large as expected. 70+ years of atheism has left its mark as a large percentage of the people don't even understand the idea of faith. The toughest work is still to come. Prayer for the conversion of these people to Christ is still needed - perhaps now more than ever.

Doulos of Fatima:

Hello! I found a website of a parish called "Our Lady of Fatima Byzantine Russian Catholic Church" which is in San Francisco.

Try to log onto: www.byzantinecatholic.org [byzantinecatholic.org]

And see what happens. I e-mailed to somebody there asking about the background on Byzantine devotion to Fatima. So hopefully I'll hear from them and I'll share it with you if I can. Pretty interesting. I also asked if there's any "Latinization" of this parish (which I certainly hope NOT).

Later,

spdundas

Glory to Jesus Christ ! Thank you to all who have responded. spdundas, yes that card also comes in a larger ikon form availible from the Blue Army for about $4/ikon, a real bargain. I have some familiarity with Our Lady of Fatima parish in San Francisco. The parish was founded in 1956 to meet the needs of the Russian population in the Bay area. It was dedicated on October 13, 1956, the anniversary of the Miracle of the Sun at Fatima in 1917. A Russian iconographer had earlier written an ikon of the Apparition at Fatima. The Jesuits man the parish. In the past there was some Latinization (e.g. several statues relating to Fatima.) The most distinguished of the Jesuit pastors, Fr. Karl Patzelt (1916-1988) was a very holy man. A Czech German, he served in the medical corps of the German Army. He was captured on the Russian Front. While a POW he learned Russian. He also learned how to use suffering in order to become more Christ-like. He came to a deeper understanding of theosis because he lived it. He was much beloved by the faithful as a spiritual father. He used to lead the faithful in praying the Chotki of the Theotokos. He perfomed several exorcisms and the elderly priest in the 1973 film, The Exorcist is based on him. His cause may soon be introduced at Rome for canonization. To be continued.

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 10-24-1999).]

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 10-24-1999).]

Glory to Jesus Christ ! Again, thanks for your responses. Let me now address the issue of the " conversion of Russia." In her 1917 apparitons the Theotokos made it clear that God was much offended by the grave sins of mankind. Should mankind not repent by 1)professing and practicing the Catholic faith and 2) embracing Mary's prescibed devotion to her Immaculate Heart, Russia would serve as God's main instrument to punish the world for its crimes. Russia could only be converted from this path if the pope would consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of the Theotokos. The Theotokos followed her 1917 promise to ask for this consecration with a formal request for this papally led consecration in 1929. Here the Theotokos specified that the pope was to lead the Catholic bishops in a collegial consecration to her Immaculate Heart. Moose puts it very well. The Russian Orthodox Church had become so spiritually desolate that as an organization it had become subservient to the Soviet Regime. The state controlled Orthodox Church could not regenerate Russia. Only the Catholic Church could do this. I have not seen any statement on the conversion of Russia to Roman Catholicism or to Byzantine Catholicism by the seer, Lucia. The diaspora Russian Catholics of the time, however, the disciples of the Russian Catholic philosopher Vladimir Solovyov (1853-1900) and Ukrainian Metr. Andrei Sheptitsky (1865-1944) were quite adamant about retaining their Russian Orthodox identity. The founders of the Russian Catholic Church had as early as 1889 started to look to the See of St. Peter as their only hope to cure a corrupt Orthodox Church. In this they had the support of the See of Peter. They believed and prayed that Russia would be converted to Russian Byzantine Catholicism sometimes called Russian Orthodoxy in communion with Rome. I hope that this answers your question.

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 10-24-1999).]

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 10-25-1999).]

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 10-28-1999).]

The information provided by Doulos of Fatima is only partially correct. The Catholic Church has never understood the messages of Fatima to mean anything except a call for the conversion of Russia back to Christ. It was never interpreted by the Church as a call for Russia to convert to Catholicism (Roman or Byzantine). Pope John Paul II has publicly acknowledged that he considers the part of the message calling for Russia to convert to Christ as being fulfilled with the fall of communism and the freedom and restoration of the Russian Orthodox Church.

According to the priests I have consulted, the actions of Solovyov and Sheptitsky were not related to Fatima as Doulos seems to indicate (especially since Solovyov died before the supposed apparitions). It should also be made clear that the Catholic Church credits not itself, but Christ for the restoration of the Church in Russia and at no time considered the Russian Orthodox faith or Church to be corrupt.

Finally, it should always be noted that the apparitions at Fatima fall into the category which Catholics may accept as true or reject as false.

Glory to Jesus Christ ! Thank you for your post, Moose. Let me clarify. 1) Regarding the matter of Russian conversion to Roman Catholicsm or conversion to Orthodoxy in communion with Rome, I have never seen any statement by the Theotokos nor of Sr. Lucia, the seer, on this matter. However, the Russian Catholics were quite adamant. The fathers of the Russian Catholic movement, Vladimir Solovyov (1853-1900) and Metr. Andrei Sheptitsky (1865-1944), obtained full support from the Apostolic See so that Russian Orthodox who entered into communion with Rome would not be forced to become Roman Catholics. This is a well documented fact. I t is also well documented that the disciples of Solovyov (Feodorov, Nicholas Tolstoy, Deubner, etc.) despaired of the Russian Orthodox Church regenerating itself. Their solution was to embrace the See of Peter. This view was accepted by Pius XI and Pius XII. 2) Allow me to further clarify regarding the matter of the the See of Peter and Fatima. After the Russian Revolution and Civil War (1917-1921) many Russian exiles were exposed to the message of the Theotokos of Fatima. These Russians began to pray for the conversion of Russia, as the Theotokos had requested. They also petitioned Rome. Finally in 1952, in part due to the prayers, the pilgrimage to Rome and Fatima, and the petition of these Russian Orthodox in communion with Rome, Pope Pius XII did, "dedicate and consecrate all the peoples of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of the Virgin Mother of God...." These pilgrims went on to the Russian Chapel of the Theotokos of Fatima in the Basilica of Our Lady of Fatima in Portugal. Pius XII (1939-1958) did connect the Fatima message to the conversion of Russia to communion with Rome. I hope that this clarification is useful for our discussion.

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 10-25-1999).]

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 10-25-1999).]

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 10-25-1999).]

OK, so is Fatima connected with converting Russia to Catholicism or not?

I have a hard time squaring all this with the Balamand (sp?) declarations which would indicate no such "conversion" is necessary. Is Rome serious about how it says it views the Orthodox or is it acting in a manner contrary to its words? Who's in charge, is it the Pope or the Roman bureaucrats? It's fine to put Fatima in larger context of reconciling with Orthodoxy, but another to insist the Russian Orthodox Church needs to be "converted."

The ultimate lesson is to judge Rome (or anyone for that matter) by its actions rather than its words.

Doulos is bringing together two separate things into one post and presenting it as if they are closely related. There was movement by some Russian Orthodox Christians towards restoring full ties with Peter. Solovyov and Sheptitsky were closely connected with this movement. But this movement has no direct connection with the apparitions at Fatima - except, of course, that they happened during the same century. There are, unfortunately, plenty of Blue Army people who have put their own slant on the actual events.

Rome has never called for the conversion of Russia (during the communist days and specifically regarding the messages at Fatima) to anything but Christ. In Doulos' last post he indicated that Pope Pius XII called for the conversion of Russia to Catholicism (that is, submission to and entrance into full communion with Rome). This is inaccurate and incomplete. There is no doubt that prayer was called for and offered for the restoration of the communion of Churches (as there still is today) but Rome has never seen or described Fatima as a call for the Russian Orthodox Church to submit to Rome.

It should also be noted that the attitude of the Vatican has changed considerably during this century. Up until the first part of this century the attitude towards Orthodoxy was very much a general call for them to repent their errors and submit to Peter. This attitude was deeply intertwined with the common belief among Roman theologians that the Latin Church alone was the guardian of Catholicism and that all theology needed conforming to Latin theology. This has changed considerably - especially since Vatican II. The Balamand Document, although not official, is another step in Pope John Paul II's efforts towards re-balancing East and West. A further step was just taken this past week at the Synod of European Bishops at which the Synod Fathers applaud the "exchange of gifts" between East and West and the pope called for mutual cooperation between East and West. Another step will be taken in Boston in Nonmember when the Eastern Catholic bishops from the Americas and Australia meet to discuss, among other things, the relationship of Eastern Catholics to Rome, to Orthodoxy and to each other.