www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Fatima and the Byzantine Churches

Conversion: It can also mean a change of heart. It doesn't neccessarily mean change of religion or rites.

The Russian Orthodox Church is a victim of scandals, corruptions and infilterations. Of course it would help a lot if the Russian Orthodox Church be united with the Pope, since it would create unity and purity among the Russian Orthodox Church.

But I don't think it's the foundation of Fatima: to convert Orthodoxy to Catholicism. It's just to help Orthodox Church to have more unity among themselves and help purify from all errors and faults which may especially be inflicted upon by the horrible persecution and communism of the former Soviet Union.

The bottom line is the message from Fatima that God will make use of Russia to punish the world if the world does not convert (repent). The world is filled with so many sins. So the bottom line is CONVERSION of heart. Meaning people will return to God by converting bad heart to Christian heart and sincere repentence.

God loves Russian Orthodox Church just as much as the Roman Catholic Church. Perhaps God wants to use unity and purity of Russian Orthodox Church to be a model to all Christian Churches to be united with Peter?

Who knows, but I think it's very dangerous for one to think Fatima calls conversion (rites) of Orthodoxy to Catholicism.

But hey, we can't speculate all that because I think it's all tied down to the Third Secret, which has not yet be revealed. Only God knows the true definition of "Conversion of Russia." We're only humans, we can't know everything!

spdundas

What of the famous "Third prophecy?" I thought it was supposed to be unsealed a while ago. Has anyone given any reason why it's still secret? Have there been any leaks or hints?

Just Curious,

Bill

PS - With regards to the purity of the Russian Orthodox Church. Anyone who is honest will freely admit problems. But it has been little more than a decade since the fall of the Berlin wall and when she could experience any real freedom. Couple that with the fact that all the KGB agents they put in the Church probably couldn't a job outside of the Church and it will probably be a generation or more until the physical structures and the priesthood and hierarchy are fully up to the task ahead of them. Surely there have been times in various locales where the priests, hierarchy et al have been more politics-centered rather than Christ-centered for a span of years under the ultimate control of Rome.

Glory to Jesus Christ ! You raise a shrewd question, Moose. The Blue Army was an American dominated, Roman Catholic movement. It was designed to promote devotion to the Immaculate Heart of the Virgin, as requested at Fatima, and was organized after the Second World War. Was it only Roman Catholic or did Byzantine Catholics (Russians, Ukrainians, Belorussians, Ruthenians, etc.) participate in a manner in keeping with their Eastern traditions ? (e.g. venerating ikons, standing for prayer, etc.) I had always assumed that the Byzantine Catholic devotion to the Theotokos of Fatima and the work of the Blue Army were separate movements. Moose the Moderator suggests otherwise.

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 10-26-1999).]

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 10-26-1999).]

Fatima played no appreciable part in Russian Catholic activity in the 20's and 30's (it's not mentioned in any of the histories). Much later, some of the smaller Russian Catholic communities in the emigration discovered a usefulness in the Fatima link and, to an extent, exploited it (the Byzantine Chapel in Fatima is one of the results). My understanding is that the level of celebration has, in the past, ranged from Eastern to Western depending on who the celebrants were. According to the priests I talked to, Russian Catholics found the "Russia will be converted to Catholicism" attitude by some highly offensive, even if the Church never sanctioned this idea.

>>I had always assumed that the Byzantine Catholic devotion to the Theotokos of Fatima and the work of the Blue Army were separate movements. Moose suggests otherwise.<<

I've not suggested that. Any devotion by Byzantine Catholics to the Mother of God because of the supposed messages at Fatima were, for the most part, imitation and embracement of what was happening in the local Roman Parish. While the larger part of the laity seemed to assume the call was for Russia to convert to Roman Catholicism, those who knew of the existence of Byzantine Catholics assumed that the call was for Russia to convert to Byzantine Catholicism. While Pope Pius XII certainly called for a restoration of full communion between Orthodoxy and Catholicism, there is no evidence that this has anything to do with Fatima.

Glory to Jesus Christ ! Moose, could you supply further details about 1) Some of the Eastern practices in those Byzantine parishes devoted to the Theotokos of Fatima. Did they venerate her ikon(s)? Pray the Chotki of the Theotokos ? When was that Blue Army Ikon of the Immaculate Heart of the Theotokos written ? I suspect that it was written after 1960. 2)The pilgrimage of Russian Catholic bishops and their faithful to Rome and Fatima to ask Pope Pius XII to consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of the Theotokos. The pope quoted this unilateral consecration in the 1952 letter quoted above. Thank you for your help. Yes it is true that even very Russian priests and their parishoners, as in my parish during the period of Fr. John Ryder, S.J., followed very Latinised practices (e.g. a statue of the Theotokos of Fatima.)

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 10-26-1999).]

1) The Byzantine parishes with Fatima devotions used the same statues and chaplets (mostly the standard Roman Catholic rosary) as did the Roman Catholics. It was common, but far from universal.

2) I am not aware of the existence of Russian Catholic (Byzantine) bishops anywhere in the world either in the 1950's or even today. Outside the Slavic lands, Byzantine-Russian Catholics fall under the jurisdiction of the local Roman Catholic bishop. Someone more knowledgeable than I will have to do the research. Two priests I have consulted have no knowledge of such a pilgrimage.

Questions for Doulos:

1) Where do you get your terminology? I have heard of statues of the Blessed Virgin but have never heard a Byzantine use the words "Theotokos" and "statue" in the same sentence.

2) Why the interest in Fatima? Most people I know hold no opinion about it's validity or, if they do, they see John Paul's words about Russia being freed and the Church restored so it falls in the realm of history. Why is it important to your study of Byzantine theology?

Glory to Jesus Christ ! Thank you so much for taking this extra time just to help me. I know how difficult and frustrating research can be. I sometimes grumble even though I earn a good hourly wage. I am blessed of course to have this cushy job as a research assistant. I just naturally refer to the Virgin Mary as the Theotokos, as this is how I always address her. I have some biographical information on three Russian bishops. The first was a disciple of Vladimir Solovyov. He was the first Exarch of Russia, Bsp. Leonid Feodorov , confessor (1879-1935) and was consecrated in 1917 by Metr. Andrei Sheptitsky. There were subsequent occupants of the presently vacant Russian exarchate. Outside of Russia there were two others, responsible for Russian Catholics. They had the power of order, but not of jurisdiction: Bsp. Alexander Evreinov (1877-1959) and Bsp. Paul Meletiev, confessor (1886-1962). Bsp Alexander was consecrated at the Russicum in 1936 by another "ritual bishop" the Ukrainian Redemptorist, Nicholas Charnetsky, confessor (1884-1959). Bsp Paul was already the Russian Orthodox bishop of Briansk when he entered into communion with Rome in 1946. The causes of the three confessors are pending. I was devoted to Our Lady of Fatima when I was Roman Catholic. Now that I have become Byzantine Catholic I wish to continue my devotion to the Theotokos of Fatima in a manner consonant with our Eastern tradition. Information of this kind is difficult to obtain, as you can see. I thought it might be of interest to others, also. I must confess I thought I would get a very small responnse.

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 10-26-1999).]

I see where you are going. There were some Russian bishops in Europe but they had no eparchy (diocese) to rule over and, therefore, little jurisdiction.

I would suspect that their devotion to Fatima (however great or little) was more to support their own efforts rather than a response and embracement of the supposed messages.

>>I was devoted to Our Lady of Fatima when I was Roman Catholic. Now that I have become Byzantine Catholic I wish to continue my devotion to the Theotokos of Fatima in a manner consonant with our Eastern tradition.<<

Since Byzantines with devotion to Our Lady of Fatima never developed Byzantine devotions it seems that you have three paths: 1) Continue the RC approach you were raised with (chaplets, rosary and Fatima statue), 2) Rely on traditional Byzantine devotions to the Mother of God (Akathist, etc.) or 3) Create something new. Since this something that is to be limited to your personal prayer life you have a great amount of freedom. Spend time thinking and praying over and then discuss it with your spiritual director.

Let me add that devotion to Our Lady of Fatima was often a part of our prayer services during Captive Nations Week. As an aside, this was the one event in which the Latin's participated in but in a secondary role with Eastern Catholics and Orthodox taking the primary role and with great unity.

Now that our prayers have been answered and the Church is free, I would hope we could offer periodic thanksgivings for this great blessing.

[This message has been edited by Kurt (edited 10-27-1999).]

Glory to Jesus Christ ! Kurt, I must be a little too young to remember captive nations week. Could you, please, fill me in.

Glory to Jesus Christ ! Let me respond to Bill Mo, Fr Kyrill, and spdundas who have asked about the Russian Orthodox Chucrch. This is a great question. Does the collapse of the Soviet system equate a spiritual revival ? Is there a genuine spiritual revival of Orthodoxy in the former USSR ? How many priests ? Are new churches being built ? How healthy is monastic life ? How many homes have ikon corners ? What is the status of religious education ? Do the laws and way of life of the people indicate a resurgence of Christianity ? For example, in Catholic Poland the renewal of the Church was accompanied by a precipitous decline in the number of abortions, nearly a 75% drop ! Is the same true of Russia or the other republics ? Do we even have access to reliable information ? I do not have the answers to these questions. I am just pondering the meaning of conversion. Is peace simply the absence of war ?

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 10-27-1999).]

As I understand it, during the second half of the 19th century, many of the educated and aristrocratic Russians were being heavily influenced by the spiritualist elements that dominated Western culture. As a result of real study and scholarship, many people (both in Russia and in the West) began studying Christian roots, i.e., prior to the Middle Ages. As with the Oxford Movement in England, many Russians became interested in the early Church structures and the role of "Peter". This resulted in many converts in England and the restoration of the "English Catholics" (or "Anglicans") who had been suppressed under the Protestant hegemony.

Similarly, in Russia, this study (along with cultural pressures to be more Western, i.e. French), some Russians did flirt with communion with Rome. This process got undermined by the Russian Revolution. Most of the aristocracy got out of Russia, to Paris (Where else?) and established the "Exile Church". Some Russians did convert to Catholicism of the Russian/Byzantine variety. Rome responded by establishing the Russicum in the hope that priests could be ordained to serve these people and, as a sideline, sneak into Russian to undo the communist stuff.

Some priests did make it into Russia, notably Fr. Walter Csizek, a Jesuit from Pennsylvania. Others were sent to 'serve the exile Russians' in New York (the Russian Center), the Jesuit parish in San Francisco, a house of Jesuits in Paris, and a few others. The reality was: most of these places served as wonderful witnesses to the sufferings of the Christians in Russia, but essentially ALL of the priests and most of the people in these parishes were anything but Russians.

A "Russian" parish was established in Boston in the late 1950's by a Russicum trained priest. Fr. Mowatt celebrated the complete and I mean entire Liturgy, in OCS, and even preached in Russian (and then again in English). Unfortunately, there were three (3) people who understood Russian among the congregation of 20 or so. Most congregants were good, old Boston Irish folks. Father, eventually Archpriest, Mowatt was called to staff the Byzantine Chapel in Fatima. He was replaced by an Italian Jesuit, Fr. Floridi. When Fr. Floridi passed away, the parish was closed. The parish was under the jurisdiciton of the Cardinal-Archbishop of Boston (we worshipped in the basement of St. Vincent's Church-- but it was beautiful). We were visted by Bishop Andrej Katkoff, Ordaining Prelate of the Russians, Titular Bishop of Nauplia [Andreij Naupliskago] for our canonical visitations.

I have to tell you, we NEVER ONCE did or heard anything about Fatima in that Russian parish. There may have been printed materials in the pamphlet rack, along with a lot of other stuff, but that was it. We were in word and in deed a parish that could have been picked up in the steppes of Russia and moved to South Boston. Although Father was involved with the "Blue Army", it never impinged on our liturgical or parish life. We were "Typikon of the Great Church" 100%. (And I'm forever very grateful, because that is where I learned a lot about the Slavic recension of the Byzantine community. And Fr. Mowatt was a great teacher.)

So, my experience of Fatima and the Byzantine Church is quite different from that mentioned elsewhere on this thread. (I find it ironic that --as a result of the Saracen invasion of the Iberian peninsula-- the Mother of God is supposed to have appeared in a town named after the daughter of the Prophet Mohammed. What a kick in the pants.

Moose,

Of course not many people, including RC, don't have much devotion to Fatima until later in the '30s and especially after WWII. Reasons for that is because the apparitions weren't approved by the Church until mid '20s and the messages were still new at the time.

You said: "Any devotion by Byzantine Catholics to the Mother of God because of the supposed messages at Fatima were, for the most part, imitation and embracement of what was happening in the local Roman Parish."

Hmmm. I am a little offended when you said "...was happening in the local Roman Parish." You used the word "Roman." Yes, you are correct it happened there, but you are kind of saying that Our Lady have favorites? No way! She doesn't favor Roman over Byzantine. She is just Our Lady, Queen of Heaven, Lady Theotokos. She is our Mother, so therefore, She doesn't "see" rites within the Church, same applies to Our Lord.

If Our Lady appears there, then She is OUR Lady, no matter what rite of a parish She appears to. The bottom line is: WE BETTER LISTEN TO HER!!! Why should we turn our heads away just because it happened to a "Roman" parish?

I know She appeared in Ukraine a long time ago. I would listen to Her, even if She appeared to a Russian Catholic (or Orthodox?) Church.

The Rosary is NOT a devotion of "only" ROMAN Catholics, it's a devotion given to ALL by Her. The saints who received a Rosary from Her "happen" to be Roman Catholics, so does that mean it's a RC devotion? No. It's a devotion that was given to us by Her, no matter what rite of a Church we are in. She is ONE AND SAME Lady in Byzantine and Roman Church. She is the same Lady in the Ikon on the Screen and the same Lady who gave us Rosary.

So, let me ask you again...do you really think Our Lady would actually play favorites? Again, no. She love us ALL EQUALLY.

I really believe everything in this entire world at all times are spiritually related. God and demons are among us whether in politics, wars, persecutions, churches, circumstances, etc. etc. etc. We all have a free will, the path we choose, either God or demons will guide us through a particular path.

I agree that Roman Catholics have a big ego and are bigots (maybe due to ignorance) that Orthodoxy would actually convert to "ROMAN" Catholicism (not Byzantine, Melkite, etc.).

We all must be careful with such devotions as Fatima, etc. We MUST NOT INCORPORATE *CULTURE* TO THESE DEVOTIONS. I actually think culture may have played a big part of "sterotyping" devotions to "Roman Devotions" or "Byzantine Devotions." We must not sterotype devotions, especially if it's given by one GOD of ALL nations, creed, age, sex, etc.

I really think it's sad on BOTH sides (RC and BC) to turn heads away from devotions meant for all simply because of the labeling.

We are so blinded by sterotyping and labeling of devotions that we are actually forgetting that these are GIFTS from God and Our Lady. Gifts!!!

It's like 2 children opening presents on Christmas, and the children compare which gifts are better (even if it may be the same gift) and the kids are too busy fighting, rather than realizing how much our parents loves us and wants kids to share their gifts with each other, the kids ought to take a moment and say, "Thank you. We love you too and we will share thing with each other just as Jesus would wanted us to do."

I mean, really, I've got some Orthodox friends who pray the Rosary. Does that make them RC? No. Is praying a Chotki to Theotokos make RC a Byzantine? No. Devotions don't tear down rites, liturgies, etc. I mean, rites and liturgies are way too powerful and meaningful. Devotions is a gift to help us become better Christians and to improve prayer life.

God bless you.

spdundas

P.S. If some of you are familar with "Chaplets of Divine Mercy" which is a devotion GIVEN to us by JESUS through Blessed Faustina of Poland. The Chaplet and the Prayer Rope (Jesus Prayer) of Byzantines are so MUCH ALIKE! See! Our Lord doesn't see rites of the Church. He wants these prayers uttered by ALL. Jesus Prayer and Divine Mercy prayers are the same! (maybe not verbatum).

But really, I want to thank you all folks for sharing your thoughts and feelings on this thread. It's quite educational and it helps me understand more. Thank you all. I appreciate your kindness and compassion and for not bashing any devotions or each other. I really enjoy it because we all are calm and Christian-like in this. God bless.

>>Hmmm. I am a little offended when you said "...was happening in the local Roman Parish." You used the word "Roman." Yes, you are correct it happened there, but you are kind of saying that Our Lady have favorites?<<

Any devotion by Byzantine Catholics to the Mother of God because of the supposed messages at Fatima were, for the most part, imitation and embracement of what was happening in the local Roman Parish. That is, the devotion spread from the Latin parish to the Byzantine and those in the Byzantine parish used the Latin style of prayer and devotion (rosary, chaplets, statues, etc.) rather than develop their own. When one understands that this was occurring at the height of latinization in the Byzantine Catholic Church (especially here in the U.S.) it is also understandable that they would have taken the Latin forms of devotion without changing them. This does not in any way question the actual devotion of these individuals. It is quite clear that there were Byzantines who were devoted to Our Lady of Fatima. The form of their expression of this devotion, however, seems to have been almost identical to the Latin form.

Regarding the level of devotion to Fatima by Byzantine Catholics I asked an expert on life in the Byzantine Catholic Church in the 30's to the present: my mother. She has no memory of Fatima devotions in her parish at all, but does remember the rosary. The same was echoed by one of our older priests with whom I talked. Fatima "was something the Roman Catholics did", my mother said. I suspect the information I provided earlier in suggesting that this devotion was popular among Byzantines was incorrect. It now seems that, while the use of the rosary itself was very popular in the Byzantine Catholic Churches, devotion to Fatima was far from common.


>>If Our Lady appears there, then She is OUR Lady, no matter what rite of a parish She appears to. The bottom line is: WE BETTER LISTEN TO HER!!! Why should we turn our heads away just because it happened to a "Roman" parish?<<

But this is the whole issue, isn't it? Catholics are free to accept Fatima as true or reject it as false. The issue has nothing to do with which Church one belongs to. Even if individuals embrace Fatima they must respect those who don't.


>>The Rosary is NOT a devotion of "only" ROMAN Catholics, it's a devotion given to ALL by Her. The saints who received a Rosary from Her "happen" to be Roman Catholics, so does that mean it's a RC devotion? <<

Again, Catholics are free to accept or reject the validity of these apparitions. The rosary is certainly a valid personal devotion but I sincerely doubt that the Mother of God intended for Byzantines to discard perfectly good Byzantine practices for perfectly good Latin practices. All this needs to be kept in proper perspective. One must also differentiate between "devotions meant for all" and the wholesale imitation of the spirituality of another Catholic Tradition. Our history shows the great damage to our parishes by wholesale latinization. It is understandable that our bishops and priests are calling for us be faithful in restoring the authentic public prayer of the Church (i.e., Akathist to the Theotokos) while at the same time respecting the private and valid devotions of the faithful (i.e., the Jesus Prayer or the rosary).

Last year as we celebrated the Nativity of Christ the Lord a close friend of mine, a Ukrainian Catholic Hierarch sent me as a gift a beautiful rosary that he said was blessed by the Holy Father. This Hierarch told me that he uses the rosary on a daily basis and derives great profit from it.
A Cistercian Abbot once told me "find what works best for you and go with it". This works well for me.
Regarding the use of the rosary, Fatima statues, etc by Byzantines and Orthodox, does the same apply to "Third Orders" and the scapular? I know that there are Byzantine Catholic Carmelite Nuns in Sugarloaf, PA. So I guess you can be Byzantine and still wear a scapular and have a devotion to Our Lady of Mount Carmel. unworthy Silouan