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Exactly which teachings in the Fatima vision are from God?

As a result of the messages at Fatima millions of people have turned away from their sins and began praying to God. And you give credit for this to satan? May God have mercy on your soul.

Joe Prokopchak
archsinner

If Fatima is the work of Satan, then let us all rejoice. The only plausible explanation is that the Theotokos (whom Scripture said would crush the head of the serpent) whacked him upside the head hard enough that he finally came to his senses, and is back on duty for God.

<<sigh>> Would that it indeed were so.
Meantime, unless the world ends on Dec. 31, the Servants of God Francisco and Jacinta Marto are likely to be beatified next year. There will be great rejoicing - but I don't think there will be rejoicing in Hell.


Sharon


Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor & sinner
sharon@cmhc.com

People started praying to God as a result of fatima? Which God are they praying to? The God of the West no doubt, which is a dead God, and not the God of the holy Apostles, Saints and confessors of the Holy Church.

Next you will be saying it is good to be worshipping with pagans in ecumenical brotherly-love. Of course, that is NOT the teaching of the True God and His Church!

Dear in Christ Raeder Timothy

I have written to your privately about your demeanor here on this Forum, seemingly to no avail. I feel that I must now speak openly to you .

You have made it quite obvious that you do not believe in the same way as most of the members of this Forum. I think that most everyone can accept that , and even respect that of you. But it does not seem to be enough for you, unless you actively insult people's beliefs, or them personally. By calling Fatima "demonic", you are slapping people in the face. You certainly can disagree that Fatima is a real apparition, but please do not insult people's beliefs.

If you cannot conduct yourself in a manner conducive to Christian Charity, I would ask that you respect these Forums enough to remove yourself from them. I have hesitated to suggest this since I feel that everyone's understandings and knowledge is valuable here, but unfortunately you have continually acted badly. The other Orthodox on this Forum have asked me to address this with you for some time.

You can certainly take this as a warning. And please understand that in this I am acting solely as the Moderator of this Forum.

the unworthy servant

+Kyrill

Hello,

If we, supposedly in the name of love, so as not to trouble our neighbors, are going to keep quiet about their errors and not explain to them that they are on a false path, then this IS NOT LOVE, BUT HATRED! Does he do well who, upon seeing a blind man approaching a precipice, does not tell him about it, so as not to "trouble" him? Is that then love?!

I have been unfair on this thread, only because I have not explained myself. Instead of me just saying that the apparition at Fatima was demonic, I should have explained it so that you may understand. Please forgive me for not showing the 'love' I should have. Now I will show my love for my neighbors!

WHAT WAS FATIMA? Having considered the events at Fatima and the doctrines they present from an Orthodox Christian viewpoint, we now must think about the meaning behind them. From its very beginning, the Christian Church has been opposed by the spirit of the Antichrist, which has tried to distort our understanding of God and His Son so that we would turn from true worship and fall into Satanic delusion. His ways have been varied, but all have had the goal of distracting men from God. The doctrines presented at Fatima have been rejected by the Orthodox Church as perversions of the Faith leading to idolatry and a carnal attitude toward the Christian life and toward salvation.

Fatima is actually part of a sequence of special revelations and appearances over the last 150 years which have tended to reinforce a set of doctrines which the Orthodox Church has always opposed as distorted and, in some cases, tending to exalt the Theotokos into an idolatrous equality with God.

THE REAL MEANING OF FATIMA FOR ORTHODOX CHRISTIANS. Fatima was a particularly powerful attack on the Orthodox Church, since it introduced the subject of the conversion of Russia, thereby appealing to many Russian Orthodox Christians who were distressed by the enslavement of their homeland. But it is absolutely impossible to separate the "prophecies" about Russia from the total context of the visions. The purpose of Fatima was to present and reinforce a number of distinctively Roman Catholic doctrines which are absolutely foreign to the Orthodox Church. If one accepts the whole package of teachings, then one may also accept the prophecies about Russia as being from the Theotokos and one should perform the actions prescribed by the apparition; however, in this case one is no longer an Orthodox Christian. But if one is to be faithful to Orthodoxy and reject the errors introduced at Fatima, then one must also reject the prophecies relating to Russia. What Orthodox Christians cannot do is to select out those parts fo the appearances which they like and disregard or alter the rest to make them seem acceptable to Orthodoxy.

In reaction of many Orthodox to the events at Fatima we see once again a manifestation of a profound error which has been repeated throughout much of Christian history: the confusion of "religious" experiences with Divine revelation. Many visions and prophecies have occurred throughout history is all religions; in some cases the prophecies have come true, the visions have performed miracles and healings. But these prophecies and miracles do not testify to the truth of the doctrines taught in these experiences, since often they come from demonic action. The Scriptures teach us clearly that any prophecy or vision must be evaluated on the basis of the doctrine it teaches, (Deut. 13:1-15)

We must be wary of anyone who claims to speak in the name of God, even if it be a saint or an angel, as the Apostle Paul teaches us, (Gal. 1:8-9).

Similarly, the Holy Fathers teach us to distrust all visions and wonders. Thus, St. Diadochus says, "If light or some fiery form should be seen by one pursuing the spiritual way, he should not on any account accept such a vision; it is an obvious deceit of the enemy. Many indeed have had this experience and , in their ignorance, have turned aside from the way of truth. We ourselves know, however, that so long as we dwell in this corruptible body, 'we are absent from the Lord' (II Cor. 5:6)- that is to say, we know that we cannot visibly see either God Himself or any of His celestial wonders."

Anytime we make emotional "religious experiences" or various signs and wonders the criterion of our faith, we thereby open the floodgates to every sort of delusion. IF this be the standard of our faith, we must acknowledge the validity of any experience from which someone gains a "religious" sensation: the ancient ritual prostitution at pagan temples, the frenzied worship of Bacchus. We can no longer distinguish between God's truth and the devil's errors. But, in fact, all religious experiences must be tested for agreement with the Orthodox Faith before they can be accepted as genuinely from God. The Orthodox Faith is the objective criterion which permits us to separate true experiences of God from delusion of the evil one. All of our religious experiences must be verified by the Faith; the Faith is not proved by them.

Well, I think I have done my rightful duty in explaining alittle about this subject. If anyone would like to further discuss in detail each vision at Fatima, that would be just fine.

Fr. Kyrill is correct is noting that we obviously have differing beliefs about alot of things. I was surprised how much the Byzantine catholics absorbed from Rome. So we are very far apart from one another, but that is what makes it interesting at times. I will do my best to explain in detail in the future. I was doing laundry while watching our children when I popped in and made my 'short' to the point comments. Which really does not edify anyone, not even myself, knowing that I had left open ends.

Again, please forgive me!

Timothy, reader

Glory to Jesus Christ ! You have raised a number of iteresting questions, Timothy. I am unaware of 1)formal response by any Orthodox hierarch or hierarchs. Have any Orthodox bishops used the term "demonic" ? 2)any Orthodox faithful out of communion with Rome accepting some or all of the Fatima apparitions and subsequent apparitions as true. Could you, please, furnish examples.

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 11-12-1999).]

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 11-12-1999).]

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 11-12-1999).]

Hello,

You asked if their are any Orthodox, not in communion with Rome (all Orthodox are not in communion with Rome) who have accepted the visions at Fatima. The answer is yes! Many of "world orthodoxy" bishops believe in the visions as well as a priest for the R.O.C.A.

There are articles which have appeared in a column under the title;'ABOUT THE MOST IMPORTANT THING', in Trezvon ( which is a periodical published by Fr. Victor Potopov, R.O.C.A.), a Russian-language magazine for Orthodox children published by Archpriest Victor Potapov. Fr. Victor is the rector of the St. John the Baptist Cathedral in Washington, D.C. and is a prominent clergyman of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia. Basically he believes in them, as the Romans do. I have not heard a word from his bishops, whether or not they are of God or the devil. My bishops believe that they are demonic, as well as other bishops who are the successors to Archbishop Auxentios of blessed memory. But, even if there had been no 'official' position taken, it is clear that the visions where not from God, because of the un-orthodox teachings which were given to the children at Fatima. Example of those things which are contrary to Orthodoxy: 1) Devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, 2)The Rosary, 3) Purgatory, 4)Value of Human Works, 5) Conversion of Russia (which actually, the earliest records says not the conversion of Russia, but of the "world"), 6)Papal Claims, and 7) First Saturdays.

Since these are all contrary to Orthodoxy their is no need for formalities. Our faith has been delivered to us already, either we are Orthodox or something else.

Timothy

Glory to Jesus Christ ! Thank you for your prompt response. It is amazing that an Orthodox Christian could believe Fatima and remain Orthodox ! It is a very Catholic apparition. I can understand Orthodox objections to Catholic dogmas of the faith( e.g. Purgatory and papal primacy.) What are the Orthodox objections to the Marian Rosary, devotions to ikons of the Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart of the Theotokos ?

Hello,

Please try to be understanding of my post.

The Rosary: In the sixth appearance the apparition calls itself the "Lady of the Rosary." One of the methods recommended repeatedly by the apparition for obtaining world peace is the daily use of the Rosary. Now, the Rosary is a distinctively Roman Catholic devotion, on which is foreign to Orthodox piety. The Rosary consists of fifteen "mysteries," or subjects for meditation, e.g. the Annunciation, the Crucifixion, the Crowning of Mary Queen of Heaven, etc.; while reciting the Hail Mary ten times for each mystery, one is supposed to try to visualize the event commemorated in that mystery. As is true of many Western Christian methods of meditiation, this approach actively encourges the use of the imagination, which the Holy Fathers teach us is a dangerous source of errors and deception: when we start imagining the events in our Lord's life, we inevitably clothe them in our own terms and present them in a way which will be congenial to ourselves; in that way we make ourselves the measure of the events in His life and easily drop those aspects with which we are not comfortable. The Holy fathers teach us, rather, always to be wary of the imagination, learning to control it, not to develop it. Further, the use of the imagination while reciting the words of the Hail Mary means that one is not attending to the words of the prayer. Rather than aiding concentration on the words addressed to GOd and the saints in prayer, this method actually encourages distraction and wandering thoughts by concealing them in the guise of "meditations" on the events of sacred history, as imagined by the person praying. Thus, the Roman Catholic Rosary is quite different in use and intent from the Orthodox prayer-rope, whose purpose is to help the person praying to focus more intently on the words of his prayer and to keep his thoughts from wandering. The Rosary is obviously not acceptable for Orthodox Christians to use, so we must be wary of an apparition which teaches and encourages it.

Timothy, reader

P.S. I will get to the Devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary shortly, I have to pull out my Catholic Encyclopedia first, LOL.

Devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.

The primary purpose of the apparition was to encourage devotion to the so-called Immaculate Heart of Mary. In the second appearance, the apparition said, "Jesus wishes to make use of you to make me known and loved. He wants to establish in the world deovion to my Immaculate Heart." This devotional practice is related to the cult of the Sacred Heart of Jesus. In the twelfth century a revolution occurred in the devotional practices of the Roman Church; this revolution was inspired by the preaching of Bernard of Clairveaux and spread widely by Francis of Assisi. As attention was shifted from our redemtion by the Resurrection of the Lord to a focus on the Passion of the Lord, an erotic element was introduced in worship and private devotion. The Lord came to be viewed as a companion, friend, or even husband/lover, as is reflected in the marriage imagery which was introduced into Western monasticism (in taking their vows, nuns went through a sort of wedding ceremony, complete with bridal gowns, wedding rings, etc. with the Lord as the groom). This new devotion stressed the worshipper's individual union with his Mystic Lover, concentrating on the pain of the Lord's suffering and trying to arouse emotional feelings by focusing on His earthly life. Among the manifestations of this new approach to worship are the Feast of the Holy Name, special devotions to the Five Wounds of Christ, the Stations of the Cross, the meditations assigned to the decades of the Rosary, the Christmas "crib" and devotion to the "Baby Jesus" in general, and the cult of the Sacred Heart of Jesus. This later cult focuses on one part of our Lord's physical body and separates the worship of the human nature of Christ from His Divine nature; for this reason it has never found any acceptance in the Orthodox Church, which encourages its children to worship the Lord in His Divine-human unity, not in each of the natures separately. Orthodoxy has also maintained a much more restrained and objective devotional approach to the Lord, trying to avoid sensuality, sentimentality, and emotionalism.

Unfortunately, as the Roman catholic doctrine of Mary has developed in recent centuries, it has tried to parallel every attribute of Christ with one in Mary, going even to the extreme of calling her the Co-Redemptrix of the world and suggesting that she shares in Christ's priesthood in some way. Devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary is one more example of this tendency, paralleling the cult of the Sacred Heart of Jesus. But if the cult of the Sacred Heart is too dangerously overloaded with emotion, sentimentality, and sensuality for it to be acceptable to Orthodoxy, what can we say about an extension of this cult to the Theotokos? The problem here is that Roman Catholicism has lost the orthodox concept of the deification of all of those who participate in GOd's life-creating, sanctifying, and UNCREATED grace. The Church Militant and the Church Triumphant - all, in fact, who are called to be saints and who struggle in the life that is in Christ- participate in Christ's redemptive work. They are "a chosen generation, a priestly kingdom, a holy nation." When the Church's orthodox doctrine of grace, salvation, and deification is forsaken for one which is carnal, erroneous, and distorted, then, inevitable, theological dislocations and aberrations will appear also in regard to the doctrines of the priesthood and redemption. This is especially evident with regard to the position of the Theotokos in the Roman church, where her cultus clearly begins to border on Mariolatry. It is even more objectionable when particular parts of Mary are singled out for particular devotion.

In antiquity, there were two heretical sects - the Antidicomarianites and the Collyridians. The first refused to honor the Theotokos at all and denied her perpetual virginity, the second make her equal to God. Concerning the latter, St. Epiphanius of Cyprus writes that "certain women made small loaves and offered them in [Mary's] name in religious rites performed by women... And in Sikima, the local villagers offer sacrifices in the name of the Maiden [Theotokos]." The Orthodox Church strives ever to preserve the truth, deviating neither to the right nor to the left, but walking on the straight and narrow way which leads to the Kingdom of Heaven. St. Epiphanius writes that both of the extremes reflected in the doctrines and practices of these two aforementioned sects are "the teachings of the demons." "The harm," he writes, "that comes from both of these heresies is equal." We can see that, in regard to the Theotokos, the Protestants tend to reflect the views of the Antidicomarianites, whereas the modern Roman church clearly resemble the Collyridians. Orthodoxy adheres to the middle way, venerating the Theotokos as the holiest of God's creatures and pouring out love for her, but not dishonoring her by falsly exalting her to the status of a goddess. By honoring her purity and holiness and by emulating in our own lives her total obedience to God, we show our true devotion to her.

The Roman churchs tendency to make Mary equal to the Lord is manifested in the second appearance at Fatima, when the apparition promised salvation to all who practice devotion to the Immaculate Heart. It said, "To all those who embrace [devotion to my Immaculate Heart], I promise salvation and their souls will be loved by God as flowers placed by me before His throne... My Immaculate Heart will ever be your refuge and the way that will lead you to God." In the third appearance, the apparition showed the children a vision of hell, and then said, "You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart." In this same appearance, the children were told that there would be peace of people did what the apparition commanded.

One of the most striking statements attributed to the apparition is found in the first appearance. There is a disagreement in the sources that I have found about the wording of this statement, but some versions say that people must suffer as a means of repaying the Immaculate Heart of Mary for their sins and offenses. As presented in these sources, in the first appearance, the apparition said, "Will you suffer to obtain the conversion of sinners, to repair the blashemies, as well as all the offenses committed against the Immaculate Heart of Mary?" In the third appearance, the one in which the conversion of Russia is mentioned, the apparition tells the children, "Sacrifice yourselves for sinners, and say many times, especially whenever you make some sacrifice: O Jesus, it is for love of You, for the conversion of sinners , and in reparation for the sins committed against the Immaculate Heart of Mary." But our sins are not committed against the Theotokos, or her heart; they are committed against God, and it is from Him that we must ask forgiveness. It is before Him that we must repent. Certainly, the Theotokos sorrows when she contemplates our sin and disobedience. In reality, not only the Theotokos, but all the saints -- indeed all creation--"groans and travails" because of mankind's sins. As the prodigal son said, "Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee." But ultimately, God is the One Who has the authority to forgive our sins, for "who can forgive sins, save God alone?" (Mk 2:7). TO say, therefore, that we must make "reparation for the sins committed against the Immaculate Heart of Mary" literally puts her in the place of God, which is to repeat the blasphemy of Satan who wants us to worship the creation, rather that the Creator. Further, in these instances, the apparition is speaking in the language of the late Medieval scholastics, not with the voice of the Scriptures and the Church Fathers. The forgiveness of sins and restoration to sonship which mankind received through the voluntary Passion, Crucifixion, and Resurrection of Christ are not the fruit of a legalistic act demanded by some divine justice; rather, they are a gift freely given as a result of the supreme act of love freely chosen by GOd to redeem us. There is no reparation, no satisfaction--there is nothing that we can do of ourselves to deserve them. This is why our Lord Jesus Christ became man, suffered, died and rose again--to break down the wall between us and God. Nothing we do, no suffering of ours can replace what He did for us. This is precisely why in the Divine Liturgy, the priest exclaims, "Thine own of Thine own do we offer unto Thee, because of all and for all."

Tim,

Are these your words or are you taking them from another source? If so, what is it?

Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

I have a large library here in my home. I used almost every source I could in the short time I had. There is alot more to this subject.

If you came to my house, we coud talk for several hours, while still not cutting through everything.

Every Christian should have their own library.

We even have a 'small' library for our children. My wife has selected many well written books on the lives of saints for children. She beleives that in the early years of childhood they should study the lives of the saints so that they will not get discouraged at what is happening around them in this world.

God bless!

Timothy, reader

Glory to Jesus Christ ! Thank you for all of this research. I was unaware that the Orthodox found the Marian Rosary and the devotions to the Sacred Heart of Jesus and to the Immaculate Heart of the Theotokos contrary to Orthopraxis. Please, at your leisure, post refernces to any written Orthodox evaluations( articles, catechetical materials, etc.) of these devotions. I would appreciate it.

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 11-14-1999).]

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 11-14-1999).]

Dear Tim,

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Do you really think it is fair to take the abuses of one tradition as representative of the whole of it? It is an old polemical trick: take the worst of someone else's tradition and compare it with the best of my own. We can all play that game, but who really wins?

In Christ
unworthy monk Maximos